ok.
I read the OP again and am answering this without too much work presurre breathing down my neck.

Vreeg's #1 rule of setting design is still, "Make sure the system/ruleset you cloose matches the game you want to play in your setting, or else the setting and game will eventually match the system."

A spell list system works well if your setting is one that tries to portray magic as a byproduct/partial byproduct of study.  The idea is that at some level, creating spells is a diificult and high-power affair, and most casters learn these spells, study them carefully, and if they ever become ultra powerful, some days they might actually contribute to this knowledgebase.
The background thought process is that if mage A and mage B have similar spells, they both read 'spellbook 101', much as any other course of study.

Freeform systems are better for simulating innate abilities, ill-understood abilities shared by a few select souls.  if the system is not codified and is wild-esque, a freeform system is often better for giving the players the feeling that they are, to some degree, making it up as they go along.


Obviously, this is a generality, and one can stretch either format to cover almost everything, but the above guidelines infer what each format is better for.  Of course, some setting will want to have both feels, wild and codified, and this is where you can see the systemic dichotomy.  

in this, I want to stress something that may be obvious but needs to be said.  'Vancian' and 'spell list system' are not perfectly analogous.  And where I feel that some spell list systems have enough components to create a semi-freeform corresponding system, traditional vancian magic is less suited for a cross-over attempt.

Back to work.

Quote from: Silverlion;343234I prefer on the fly spell creation. Ars Magica, Talislanta 4E, and of course my own High Valor. However, examples are very useful and can be a basic list of commonly utilized spells.

He's got it pretty much in a nutshell right there.

Quote from: Seanchai;343421Because it's unrealistic and unhelpful advice.

No, suggesting that you stop being such a pussy is unrealistic and unhelpful.  Suggesting that you be more discriminating in the people you play with in a social environment is simple common sense.

!i!

Just to clear up a misconception about Ars Magica:
only weak spells are improvised on the fly. Formulaic spells (which can be built by players) have to be researched, taking seasons of study, and have to be cast as learned.

90% of the spells cast in my last 3 Ars Magica games were formulaic, and 50% straight from the lists. The remaining 10% were improved low level spells, and again, about half were straight from the lists, just not studied.

Kind of like letting a D&D spellcaster use a slot at half level (round down) to cast a spell they don't know...

Quote from: aramis;343553Just to clear up a misconception about Ars Magica:
only weak spells are improvised on the fly. Formulaic spells (which can be built by players) have to be researched, taking seasons of study, and have to be cast as learned.

But players are able to create their own formulaic spells, as well as learning rote spells that already exist, which is the point others have intended to make.

Mage, on the other hand, plays a little faster and looser with the limitations on improvising spells on the fly.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;343533Suggesting that you be more discriminating in the people you play with in a social environment is simple common sense.

You can be discriminating and still find yourself playing with assholes. Sometimes people are only part time assholes and you don't realize it until too late. Sometimes they develop into asshole. Sometimes there are overriding factors that make an asshole in the group just something you have to tolerate.

So, yeah, absolutely, it's common sense. It's a good idea. It's still unrealistic and suggesting it as a solution to a problem, because of the contextual plethora of assholes, is unhelpful.

Seanchai

Jibbajabba's pref for the win (lists with the ability to research, seek out, be taught, and invent new spells). LordVreeg's analysis is on the money, too.

I do like how some systems let you have variable costs for greater effects, though. Might make especially good sense for elemental magic. For a pip you can make enough wind to blow out a candle. For more you move a becalmed ship. Still more and you can blast people and knock them over.

I also like the idea of RQ 3 sorcery for some reason, but not the execution. And that's highly freeform.

I also like the idea of magic primarily as ritual, summoning, and pacting, but I haven't played a game along those lines.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;343578Jibbajabba's pref for the win (lists with the ability to research, seek out, be taught, and invent new spells). LordVreeg's analysis is on the money, too.

I do like how some systems let you have variable costs for greater effects, though. Might make especially good sense for elemental magic. For a pip you can make enough wind to blow out a candle. For more you move a becalmed ship. Still more and you can blast people and knock them over.

I also like the idea of RQ 3 sorcery for some reason, but not the execution. And that's highly freeform.

I also like the idea of magic primarily as ritual, summoning, and pacting, but I haven't played a game along those lines.

I used to have a book for Gurps calls, "Authentic Thaumaturge." It included a bunch of whining from the writer about how pagan candles never went out until the Christians came, but the flavor of the book was pretty interesting.

Quote from: Cranewings;343642I used to have a book for Gurps calls, "Authentic Thaumaturge." It included a bunch of whining from the writer about how pagan candles never went out until the Christians came, but the flavor of the book was pretty interesting.

Authentic Thaumaturgy, if you're talking about the one by that idiot Bonewitz, is retarded. Its ostensibly about "real magic", written of course by a guy who's a pagan gandalf-wannabe.

By far the most authentic RPG magical system, both in terms of how similar the way it works and the people who use it are to the "real" magic and "real" magicians I've met in real life, is Unknown Armies. They pretty much have it down. To be a magician, you have to be a mental obsessive; and the more obsessed you are, and the more out of touch you are with the regular world, the more of a "magician" you become.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;343644Authentic Thaumaturgy, if you're talking about the one by that idiot Bonewitz, is retarded. Its ostensibly about "real magic", written of course by a guy who's a pagan gandalf-wannabe.

And his "mechanics" are almost unusable.  Still, it can be some inspirational flavor reading.  However, if anyone is remotely tempted to buy the book, let me point out that it costs $25 from SJG, while Bonewits' book Real Magic is available for half that price, and, while not a roleplaying book, contains all of the same material dealt with in much greater detail.

QuoteBy far the most authentic RPG magical system, both in terms of how similar the way it works and the people who use it are to the "real" magic and "real" magicians I've met in real life, is Unknown Armies. They pretty much have it down. To be a magician, you have to be a mental obsessive; and the more obsessed you are, and the more out of touch you are with the regular world, the more of a "magician" you become.

Very true.  I was always amused to read complaints by people who were upset that you couldn't be a magician and not be a freak in the system -- every discipline of magic was invariably self-destructive (or at least very, very counter-productive).

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;343648I was always amused to read complaints by people who were upset that you couldn't be a magician and not be a freak in the system -- every discipline of magic was invariably self-destructive (or at least very, very counter-productive).

!i!

But then of course the goal (for some) becomes who can create the most freakish character.

Regards,
David R

That seems to be the goal for many "real-life" magicians as well. So again, perfect system!

RPGPundit