Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1124665World of Darkness isn't worth buying unless you like being stifled and crushed by the arbitrarily restrictive setting and badly designed rules. Changeling: The Lost and Hunter: The Reckoning are the only titles worth trying, but you'll have to swap out the rules.

I prefer indie games with better designed rules and flexible open-ended settings. Lost Souls, Reaper Madness, Feed, Monsterhearts, Actual Fucking Monsters, Cold Hard World, Nephilim, WitchCraft, Liminal, etc, take your pick.

CTL and Hunter: TR are definetely the gems of NWOD. And Witchcraft rocks.  That's on my list of "games I wish had a new edition."  If only for an update to 2020's technology / world events.

I ran a campaign of V20 Dark Ages and it is excellent. The Wraith 20 book has terrific updates to the Risen and Orpheus splats, which are super good.

I think everyone agrees Witchcraft is amazing. It needs an update though, and that doesn't look like it's ever going to happen with Beyond Human forever stalled.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1124766I ran a campaign of V20 Dark Ages and it is excellent. The Wraith 20 book has terrific updates to the Risen and Orpheus splats, which are super good.

Wraith is overburdened by typical WW nonsense like a morbidly overweight and mean-spirited setting that bears zero resemblance to the actual appeal of ghost stories at large and the minority of stories that feature ghosts as protagonists.

I want a game where you can actually play out scenarios like Beetlejuice, the Frighteners, Ghost Whisperer, Dead Like Me, Being Human, Ghost Master, Flatliners, The Ring, Poltergeist, or the bazillion other ghost stories that exist. Where your PC could fly, generate fire, mind control, teleport, or whatever other superpowers you can imagine as appropriate for the character concept. Where ghosts aren't just humans on the ethereal plane, but things like will-o-wisps, vaguely defined spooky phenomena, animals, vehicles, buildings, curses, etc.

I'm not remotely interested in, as somebody else put it, a reinvention of the underground railroad. Pretty much the only interesting concept that WW thought of was the Shadow, and that was just a mix of Jungian psychology and evil twins.

You don't need WW inventing rules telling you how to play. You can invent your own rules and setting. You're better off doing that than letting WW restrict your creativity.

Try something like Lost Souls or Reaper Madness to see how much WW destroys the creativity of people who play their games.

I much prefer the earlier Wraith setting before WW neutered it like they did pretty much the whole line.

In that at least you could play a fairly broad array of ghost types. Within the limits of the setting. Much like with Vampire. It is just not a setting that really allows for the more oddball or humorous stuff without some tweaking. Same for Aberrant. Joke heroes just have no real place in that setting and especially not in Aeon/Trinity. Though I did GM Aberrant with a lither tone overall.

Quote from: Omega;1124799I much prefer the earlier Wraith setting before WW neutered it like they did pretty much the whole line.

In that at least you could play a fairly broad array of ghost types. Within the limits of the setting. Much like with Vampire. It is just not a setting that really allows for the more oddball or humorous stuff without some tweaking. Same for Aberrant. Joke heroes just have no real place in that setting and especially not in Aeon/Trinity. Though I did GM Aberrant with a lither tone overall.

That's not what I meant at all. The entire format, rules and setting, of WW is needlessly arbitrary and restrictive. I don't like any of it and would vastly prefer to just make up my own shit from scratch.

Have you watched the movie and show "What We Do In The Shadows"? "Being Human"? Dresden Files? Any urban fantasy fiction or RPG outside WW? It's difficult to understand why WW is so oppressively stifling if you haven't.

Um... no. Its a setting. It is not trying to be an omni-tool box. It has a specific tone and direction. Im not particularly fond of that tone and direction. But there are alot of RPGs and settings that have some specific restraints.

Its akin to complaining you cant do a serious horror adventure in TOON! because its too silly. That is the point. Its a silly setting. Not an onmi-toolbox.

Hate to break it to you, but BoxCrayonTales is right.  Even for its own settings World of Darkness just fails in comparison to other games.

Quote from: Omega;1124805Um... no. Its a setting. It is not trying to be an omni-tool box. It has a specific tone and direction. Im not particularly fond of that tone and direction. But there are alot of RPGs and settings that have some specific restraints.

Its akin to complaining you cant do a serious horror adventure in TOON! because its too silly. That is the point. Its a silly setting. Not an onmi-toolbox.

That's technically true. The problem is that it holds an undeserved monopoly over the urban fantasy market. There aren't laundry/shopping lists of alternative campaign settings like there are for other genres like medieval fantasy, cyberpunk, and space scifi.

Even All Flesh Must Eaten, a zombie apocalypse RPG, gave you a few dozen campaign settings to play with. Somehow they're still more creative than the zombie boom last decade.

In terms of mechanics, there are already games with far better mechanics for humanity loss (e.g. Feed) or politics (e.g. Monsterhearts). Yes, if you want to then you can use a mechanical subsystem to adjudicate politics more efficiently than ill-defined "roleplaying."

Quote from: Snowman0147;1124810Hate to break it to you, but BoxCrayonTales is right.  Even for its own settings World of Darkness just fails in comparison to other games.

Thank you. My problem with the setting more specifically falls into a set of complaints.

1. The conception of the titular splat can be idiosyncratic and arbitrarily restrictive. This is seen especially in Vampire, Werewolf, and Wraith. Changeling: The Lost and Hunter: The Vigil are the logical antithesis, as their shtick is providing tools to create your own setting. Mage would fall into the same category by its very nature if not for the enforced metaplot involving the SJWs fighting the Man. That's why I prefer something like Feed's strain mechanic, which gives vastly more freedom in that regard. (On the other end you could go the route of Nephilim or Invisible War and use a universal explanation for all paranormal phenomena.)

2. Outside of Mage, the superpowers are awful. Powers are arranged in somewhat arbitrary talent trees that force you to buy unnecessary filler in sequential order. I would vastly prefer the mechanics from an actual superhero game or something. Heartbreakers like Everlasting and WitchCraft were superior in this regard.

3. The convoluted backstory and metaplot is highly inflexible and restrictive. The GM needs to memorize a bazillion books to know the correct backstory. There isn't even a past lives mechanic a la Nephilim, Everlasting, or WitchCraft so that PCs could be personally invested in historical events.

There are probably other issues that I'm forgetting, but those were off the top of my head.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1124810Hate to break it to you, but BoxCrayonTales is right.  Even for its own settings World of Darkness just fails in comparison to other games.

Hate to break to you two but sorry, no. You are both still wrong. Its a setting. It does exactly what the setting was meant to do. It might not work for you or me. But that does not make it less than other settings. The original stuff was fairly solid. In large part because of its weird hazyness and freedom within the restrictions. It is a bleak oppressive setting. Moreso than Warhammer, not quite as bad as 40k. And I like none of those settings.

Quote from: Omega;1124859Hate to break to you two but sorry, no. You are both still wrong. Its a setting. It does exactly what the setting was meant to do. It might not work for you or me. But that does not make it less than other settings.

My complaint hinges on the observation that there aren't alternatives. WW holds a virtual monopoly and everybody who's anybody in the urban fantasy scene tells me to play WW or GTFO.

Quote from: Omega;1124859The original stuff was fairly solid. In large part because of its weird hazyness and freedom within the restrictions.

I have seen zero evidence of this. The games have barely changed since their inception aside from annoying window dressing and metaplot. What games are you specifically talking about? Book titles? Publication dates?

Quote from: Omega;1124859It is a bleak oppressive setting. Moreso than Warhammer, not quite as bad as 40k. And I like none of those settings.

That wasn't my complaint. I don't really care about how grimderp or emo the setting is. I care about the practical stuff actually relevant to character creation and gameplay.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1124862My complaint hinges on the observation that there aren't alternatives. WW holds a virtual monopoly and everybody who's anybody in the urban fantasy scene tells me to play WW or GTFO.

Generally, the people who go WW or GTFO are not worth playing with. Anyway what other games sans WW would you recommend for urban fantasy?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1124866Generally, the people who go WW or GTFO are not worth playing with. Anyway what other games sans WW would you recommend for urban fantasy?

There's not a lot of options, depending on what you're looking for. If you want contemporary urban fantasy, with simple and easy to use rules, and which is readily available to buy, then you're best with something from the indie scene like Dresden Files, Actual Fucking Monsters, Monster of the Week, Monsterhearts, Urban Shadows, Liminal, Feed, the upcoming Night Shift, ... that's all I can remember off the top of my head. There's no unified directory of urban fantasy games that I could find. WW has basically muscled everyone else into the hidden margins.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1124868There's not a lot of options, depending on what you're looking for. If you want contemporary urban fantasy, with simple and easy to use rules, and which is readily available to buy, then you're best with something from the indie scene like Dresden Files, Actual Fucking Monsters, Monster of the Week, Monsterhearts, Urban Shadows, Liminal, Feed, the upcoming Night Shift, ... that's all I can remember off the top of my head. There's no unified directory of urban fantasy games that I could find. WW has basically muscled everyone else into the hidden margins.

As a guy who larped WW for a bit (It was mainly very boring) you can also view it that WW has quarantined all the SJWs into itself.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1124870As a guy who larped WW for a bit (It was mainly very boring) you can also view it that WW has quarantined all the SJWs into itself.

I don't consider WW's political views relevant when discussing the WW games. My concerns have always stemmed from the unnecessary arbitrariness and unnecessary restrictiveness of the setting and game design.

---

[/HR]

For example: If I am looking for a werewolf game then I don't want to play one where all werewolves (or other lycanthropes/therianthropes) are pigeonholed into the role of hereditary ecoterrorists and/or magic vice cops like WW does. I would like for options other than "hereditary" and "magical enforcer" to be offered out of the box. The 2006 essay "Lycanthropy and Jungian Archetypes" lists werewolf archetypes in folklore and fiction as medieval, monstrous/cursed, monstrous/diabolical, heroic, sympathetic, and miscellaneous. AFAIK, no single game supports all or most of those archetypes.

If you'd prefer not to read the linked essay, then the archetypes break down as follows:

• Medieval werewolf: this is the werewolf as described in medieval folklore. They are people who practice magic that changes their form, though they may be predisposed towards it by certain circumstances. This archetype is explored at length by the movie The Company of Wolves.
  
• Monstrous/cursed werewolf: this is the werewolf as normal person by day and monster by night, the result of a hereditary curse, a magic curse, or an infection. This archetype is explored at length in most werewolf movies.
  
• Monstrous/diabolical werewolf: This is the werewolf as purely evil villain. Their human form is merely a disguise to conceal their true evil nature. This archetype is explored at length in the Howling movies.
  
• Heroic werewolf: The werewolf as a superhero, often with a hidden darkside. Seen at length in the Underworld movies.
  
• Sympathetic werewolf: The werewolf as a person in their own right, as reuniting with nature. Rarely featured in fiction, but applies to believers of spiritual lycanthropy that dates back to the beginning of human history.
  

Dresden Files has several "lupine theriomorphs." This makes it unique as far as werewolf fiction goes, as no other werewolf fiction I'm aware of has multiple types in the same setting.

---

[/HR]

Actual Fucking Monsters included a blog series where they offered conversion guidelines for Nightlife's kin races. (On a tangent, I can't be sure that WW's "kindred" wasn't derived directly from Nightlife's "kin." The similarities in two monolithic factions defined by their relationship to humans is eerie.)

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1124866Generally, the people who go WW or GTFO are not worth playing with. Anyway what other games sans WW would you recommend for urban fantasy?

There's also that one that uses FASERIP. Can't recall the name. I don't know if it is good, but urban fantasy + FASERIP, how could you go wrong?