I love free stuff.   I am always impressed with people who write whole RPGs and post them for free.   J Arcane's Drums of War is a better RPG than the D20 WoW game.   Mazes & Minotaurs is amazing...and its techno-revanchist because it brings some new interesting thoughts to the early 70s design.

However...

There are only X Gamers and its on an X-1 curve while there are Y Games and that's on a Y+2 Curve with both new Free RPGs and new Commerical RPGs.   So the number of games to gamers has expanded to the point that outside the Top Tier of D&D / WW / Pathfinder it becomes increasingly difficult to find gamers who speak the same game.

In most cities, you have one Team for each major sport.  Thus, if you are a fan of the Dallas Cowboys and you live in Dallas, you can easily find lots of fellow fans to share your hobby of football fandom.

Not playing the current D&D edition is not as extreme as living in Dallas and not being a Cowboys fan, but pre-4e the analogy fit pretty well.  To not play 3e in 2006 was to be outside the mainstream of the RPG hobby.  

Which is all fine and good, but let's not pretend that its as easy to find players for games outside the Top Tier.  

So as the number of not-Top Tier games increase, the lower Tier is becomes saturated with so many RPG options that the Hobby becomes micro-niched.

As much as I want to see new stuff, I wonder what the effect of micro-niching will have on our Hobby as the number of gamers diminish.

Quote from: Spinachcat;406529As much as I want to see new stuff, I wonder what the effect of micro-niching will have on our Hobby as the number of gamers diminish.

Well, it's happened (the micro-niching part) so there's no sense worrying or trying to stop it.  But the example doesn't entirely apply as most roleplayers either play a very mainstream game or they play lots of games (that's a non-exclusive either).  It's not like you have a guy who will play only M&M a block over from a guy who will play only Ghostbusters.

Other: good for the hobby, and, what industry?  The only thing I know of that could be called an RPG industry in the 21st century is World of Warcraft and its copycats.  Pen and paper RPGs are definitely in the "homemade" category.

Someone who makes RPG products for sale is in the same bracket as someone that sells jam they've made from the fruit trees in their garden.  It might be brilliant quality stuff that a connoisseur would rave over, or it might taste foul and be unhealthy to consume (FATAL!)  Whichever it is, you can't tell from the packaging.  And nobody's making any useful amount of money out of it.

But that doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile to do.  It just means it isn't commercially viable to do and, like someone who makes homemade jam, it's only really worth doing for the joy of creation, the pride you take in your skill, and the neighbour who tries a pot and goes, "Mmmm!"

Quote from: Spinachcat;406529Which is all fine and good, but let's not pretend that its as easy to find players for games outside the Top Tier.  
.

If you are willing to expand your criteria to include IRC/Skype groups then I think this is a non-problem. The only issues then are those of scheduling- which, aside from timezone differences, are the same as for the  real world. My current BASH game spans two timezones and in some ways its easier than face to face. For one thing, I don't have to drive for an hour back and forth.

Quote from: Premier;406440"GOOD for the hobby, DON'T GIVE A DAMN about the industry."

Yup.

Quote from: beejazz;406493How do they affect the Hobby?
They don't do what the hobby really needs: draw in new players. They're all in places where only people who already play will find them.

IME most new players are drawn into gaming through peoples' social networks. The physical distribution of product has become less absolutely necessary with online network-building, easy desktop publishing, online distribution and more recently affordable e-readers. Naturally, there is a draw to highly polished product which amateur stuff will never obtain, and it is harder to get the "random stranger stumbling across a PHB in the bookstore" demographic, but I think there is a level at which the hobby would be sustainable even if the entire industry fell over and died. It would be smaller than what we have now, but it would be there.

If the answer turns out ot be good for the hobby but bad for the industry then something surely is amiss.

Though i'm not sure what is meant by free stuff. Demo kits seem like a waste of time to me.

Quote from: Benoist;406449Who voted for BAD/BAD, and why?

I did.  Free, complete, RPGs devalue the market for writers in the field of comercial RPGs.  I agree that the writing tends to be decidedly "meh" in commercial RPG products, but that's collateral damage from a hobby devoted to making fanfic (but not writing it down).  I feel that this undervaluing of writers is the most dangerous part of free, complete, RPGs.

I think its bad for the industry because of the time necessary to play many of these games.  There's a person in every group who buys a ton of crap, and most people don't buy anything.  Marketing-wise, freebies should be to keep the non-buyers playing your game, while the paid products are for the one or two who do buy stuff.  This is why I'm not against free corebooks.  Hook the players with a free game, but charge for supplementary material.

Quote from: joewolz;406630I did.

Thanks. We needed the counter-point to keep the conversation going I think.

Quote from: P&P;406566Someone who makes RPG products for sale is in the same bracket as someone that sells jam they've made from the fruit trees in their garden.

THIS is a good analogy.

Thank you!

Quote from: Aos;406569If you are willing to expand your criteria to include IRC/Skype groups then I think this is a non-problem. The only issues then are those of scheduling- which, aside from timezone differences, are the same as for the  real world.

Aos, please put a thread about IRC/Skype gaming.   Every once in a while I hear people raving about it...but not much details on the How.   I'd love to see a "How to Do It Right" breakdown and how the experience is same & different than face to face.

Quote from: joewolz;406630This is why I'm not against free corebooks.  Hook the players with a free game, but charge for supplementary material.

This might be a good model.   It's the Eclipse Phase concept right now.

What do the rest of you think of this model?

The model works frine for me as I pretty much only get the main rulebook for any one system.

Okay, I had pretty much the whole output of Gamma World across the editions, but that was a collector thing and I'm better now.

Quote from: joewolz;406630I did.  Free, complete, RPGs devalue the market for writers in the field of comercial RPGs.  I agree that the writing tends to be decidedly "meh" in commercial RPG products, but that's collateral damage from a hobby devoted to making fanfic (but not writing it down).  I feel that this undervaluing of writers is the most dangerous part of free, complete, RPGs.

I think its bad for the industry because of the time necessary to play many of these games.  There's a person in every group who buys a ton of crap, and most people don't buy anything.  Marketing-wise, freebies should be to keep the non-buyers playing your game, while the paid products are for the one or two who do buy stuff.  This is why I'm not against free corebooks.  Hook the players with a free game, but charge for supplementary material.

I can see why this might be bad for the industry. But why would any of the above be bad for the hobby?

Quote from: Melan;406620IME most new players are drawn into gaming through peoples' social networks. The physical distribution of product has become less absolutely necessary with online network-building, easy desktop publishing, online distribution and more recently affordable e-readers. Naturally, there is a draw to highly polished product which amateur stuff will never obtain, and it is harder to get the "random stranger stumbling across a PHB in the bookstore" demographic, but I think there is a level at which the hobby would be sustainable even if the entire industry fell over and died. It would be smaller than what we have now, but it would be there.

I'd agree with you that most people are drawn into the hobby through social networks. I just think that's a bad thing. Or rather a not good enough thing. I think it's not sustainable, and that numbers will dwindle that way. Actually, most people can be pressured into trying a game. But then fewer people show up regularly for campaign play. And then fewer people make an effort to play once the campaign dries up. And then even those who make it their hobby ditch it with age, or go on long hiatuses. Those people who make it their hobby are crucially important, as they get everyone else on board. I've gotten a lot of everyone elses on board. Even a high percentage of those who attend campaigns regularly. But very few of the people who will do what I do and organize games on a consistent or continuing basis.

The finders in the store, and the gift recipients draw in people who will own books. Maybe read them and feel the draw to use them. So having this stream of new people will help a lot. I think without it, the number of players will not just shrink, but continue shrinking. The industry can also help otherwise by pumping money into advertising. Only WotC can feasibly do so right now, and I'm not sure they've done that good a job. I've seen more online advertising for D&D Online than for D&D. Though to be fair, they're putting those DDO ads in good spots, including widely read webcomics. And the Penny Arcade stuff can't hurt the main brand either.

Anyway, back to free stuff: It serves the hardcore. It's online, and is used either to foster interest in games that cost money or as a tool for GMs (likely hardcore audience, likely game organizers). That's awesome and all, but the first use only expands the pool of games played (not the pool of gamers) and the second use usually cuts prep time. Maybe it combats burnout a little bit in a small percent of a small number of gamers who GM and organize.

Free stuff online could be used in a more hobby expanding way. If it was advertised outside of already-gamer hangouts, and as a loss-leader for a viable business. Because complete games as free content (like others have said) devalue games with a business behind them. And we need games with business behind them for advertising and to take up shelf space in real stores to draw in new gamers faster than word of mouth can manage.

Am I making sense?

Quote from: RandallS;406677I can see why this might be bad for the industry. But why would any of the above be bad for the hobby?

IMO, as the quality of writing and art declines the demand will also decline.  Fewer folks will play if the games are crap.  Free games tend to be crap, if they're not, then they're wasting the value of the game by offering for free.  Free things are not valued as highly as things someone pays for.

Folks who play free RPGs are in the minority because the hobby has gotten older, we're not all cash-strapped kids: We like to pay for something to prove its worth the investment of time.  Or I'm talking all out of my ass on this part.

There are plenty of people playing free retroclones of various iterations of D&D.

Quote from: Aos;406728There are plenty of people playing free retroclones of various iterations of D&D.

Really?  Where?