TheRPGSite

Frank Mentzer, you all know who he is, is launching a new world for D&D and Fantasy Role Playing systems:

QuoteGreetings!

Let's start from scratch.

My name is Frank. A long time ago I worked for TSR and Gary Gygax, and I wrote some things.

Now it's 35 years later, and most tabletop hobby gamers don't know me. Many have never heard of me. There are a lot of great games out there, and it's hard to pick one. Thank you for your time and interest.

When I was Gary's Creative Aide, we talked about my Campaign. We decided to publish it, but Gary wanted it very distant, with no active connections to his continent. That's what he wanted so that's what I did. Earlier plans didn't materialize, so the time is now, sadly 9 years after my friend left us.

Empyrea is based on three premises: magic instead of Technology, a sentient but indifferent Planet who knows how everything can be in balance, and royals who place quality of life (for all) above unbalancing mass whims (like war and wealth).

These premises have far-reaching consequences, and I have spent decades extrapolating the results and applying them to an entire continental society. (I have over a thousand chatroom game logs, i.e. my laboratory.)

Our story is about Empyrea at its height. It is geographically constrained on all four sides, and Evil wants to spoil the party. But at the moment it's a comfortable Realm, the sort of world in which your current player characters have thrived. They'll find a second home in Empyrea.

We plan to release the core set by next Summer (Kickstarter in October). If it is well-received, we'll offer a whole line of supporting products. We're trying to make Empyrea available for various Fantasy RPG systems, and a science fiction interface for the offplanet setting. These are plans, but only the future will reveal the results.

SPOILERS: Additional sub-plots involve orcs trying to be civilized, dragons deciding not to be adventurer-fodder any longer, an undersea race of giant squid who actually rule the planetary ocean, a Lost World right next door, giants who may have an offplanet heritage, and Immortal beings who might just erase everything and start over.
But that's all in the background, and won't affect you... much.

Why will this take 9 months to produce? Because Loxley is assembling fantastic talents from all fields, but few are doing it full-time. You'll soon see 30 names. These tremendously talented people work with many companies. We just have to deal with the logistics.

Thanks again for your interest. More to come soon.
 
Frank

I invited Mr Mentzer to this forum and if he stops by I wanted a catch all thread for him. I'll be backing his project. One of my highlights has been gaming with him at GaryCon and Nexus Milwaukee.

I prefer my settings to be less adventure, and more 'travelogues'.  Still, depending on how it's done, this could be interesting.

Well, I'd like to give him a chance of redemption for Cyborg Commando, so I reckon I'll chip in.

He has a huge fanbase. It doesn't matter what he does. If he posted a photo of him cutting his lawn, it would be like watching a god to most.

Sounds pretty interesting...
 
But I've never been keen on the idea of Orcs being civilized. I like the sound of dragons not being fodder!

Quote from: The Exploited.;991997Sounds pretty interesting...
 
But I've never been keen on the idea of Orcs being civilized. I like the sound of dragons not being fodder!

"Orcs being civilized" is simply turning the cliche on its head, which can be trite. "Orcs trying to be civilized" could entail interesting conflict, which might or might not be good based on the approach.

I've read a couple adventures he wrote for his setting. They're not bad. I wouldn't call them amazing, but as a fairly recent fan of D&D (really got going in the 4e era), there is a certain flavor to the modules of the 1980s that might seem pedestrian now if you gamed in that era, but is almost entirely absent from modern Paizo APs and WotC modules.

Quote from: Baulderstone;991999"Orcs being civilized" is simply turning the cliche on its head, which can be trite. "Orcs trying to be civilized" could entail interesting conflict, which might or might not be good based on the approach.

That's fair to say, mate... I'll have to see how it's done in the game and give it a chance. And it could be easily tweaked to taste if needed.

Quote from: The Exploited.;992008That's fair to say, mate... I'll have to see how it's done in the game and give it a chance. And it could be easily tweaked to taste if needed.

Yup. I was planning on running it as them going through the civilization process.

I'm of two minds about it.
I'll be joining the kickstarter. I did it for Bruce Heard's recent 'they-won't-let-me-do-a-Mystara-book,-so-here's-this' kickstarter. I'd better put my money where my mouth is for Frank. BECMI is "My" edition. Even when I'm not playing it, I'm playing it (currently can't get anyone to play an OSR game, but a feat-less 5e game works, it's just BECMI in my head).

That said, "I like what this guy did back in the 80s," and, "I think this guy has good game design instincts [yes, Cyborg Commando notwithstanding]" are a far stretch from, "I am going to like this guy's pre-made game world, even though I have a history of finding most pre-made worlds to be either bland or trying-to-hard-to-not-be-bland." So who knows. I have the luxury of being in a financial place in my life where I can buy something just to benefit the person making it. But I hope there's some really good material in it to mine.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;992006I've read a couple adventures he wrote for his setting. They're not bad. I wouldn't call them amazing, but as a fairly recent fan of D&D (really got going in the 4e era), there is a certain flavor to the modules of the 1980s that might seem pedestrian now if you gamed in that era, but is almost entirely absent from modern Paizo APs and WotC modules.

Well that's a bit interesting. I'll probably pick it up and give it a looksee.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;992027Well that's a bit interesting. I'll probably pick it up and give it a looksee.

Kask & Mentzer's stuff is published under the name Eldritch Enterprises. It is technically for "generic fantasy RPGs," but the monster stats are simply OD&D/AD&D stats converted to percentiles, and thus are simple to convert back.

http://www.rpgnow.com/browse/pub/4250/Eldritch-Enterprises

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;991974He has a huge fanbase. It doesn't matter what he does. If he posted a photo of him cutting his lawn, it would be like watching a god to most.

He hasn't done much of anything interesting since he left TSR. On the other hand, watching him rage quit Dragonsfoot three times because posters won't kiss his ass is pure comedy gold!

Quote from: Elfdart;992089He hasn't done much of anything interesting since he left TSR. On the other hand, watching him rage quit Dragonsfoot three times because posters won't kiss his ass is pure comedy gold!

Is that what happened? I read the screen captures and couldn't tell what the fuss was about aside from "a minor prince" and the "village of Dragonfoot" and unity being more important than truth (or something).

Yeah, apparently there's some kind of bad blood going on between Mentzer and EOTB, because the latter (in previous threads) accused the former of pussifying D&D and being a reason TSR went belly up (which is funny since Mentzer left when Gygax did), as well as other kinds of passive-aggressive needling. Instead of laughing off such an idiotic claim or mocking EOTB or just ignoring him, Mentzer demanded the star treatment and when it wasn't given (to DF's credit*), took his ball and went home -now for the third time. If it wasn't so funny, I'd feel sad for Mentzer's Norma Desmond-like fantasy that he's a big shot who should be treated better than the lowly serfs.

*DF has issues of its own, namely that members of the K&K Klan have, with the consent of the proprietor, more or less taken over moderation duties. So, while K&Kers are free to attack other posters, any kind of lively response is twisted into being a "personal attack" and met with bans and threats of same. Similarly, when a K&Ker starts getting owned in a discussion, the bans come out, threads get locked, etc.

Can't see how Mentzer's mild mockery of the clique at DF justifies a ban. Seems it is rapidly becoming K&KA Mach II.

Quote from: Elfdart;992089He hasn't done much of anything interesting since he left TSR.

The exact same could be said of Gygax but that didn't prevent those at DF from enthusiastically burying their faces in Gary's ass for hundreds and hundreds of pages.

Quote from: Voros;992198Can't see how Mentzer's mild mockery of the clique at DF justifies a ban. Seems it is rapidly becoming K&KA Mach II.

Actually, there's a LOT more to it than some 'mild mockery'. Details have emerged today that show Frank sending at least one batshit-crazy private message the likes of which would earn a permaban on almost any rpg forum. The DF mods confirmed it was indeed from Frank. Kind of sad actually to see someone that once was at the top of the gaming world turn out to be just another raging lunatic with flecks of spittle on his keyboard. Whither that Kickstart now?

http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14851 (http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14851)

That message from Frank sounds like he needs to moderate his meds more and stop mixing them with Wild Turkey.

However, EotB crying about a PM and sharing it with his mod clique buddies, and then post the private conversation publicly, just makes him seem like a pathetic little bitch.

Who is this EOTB?

Honestly I suspect some of these sites would ban Gary frigging Gygax if he questioned the holy writ.

Personally I'm a fan of Franks early work and look forward to checking the new stuff out but if it's crap I'll not be picking it up.

Quote from: HorusArisen;992239Who is this EOTB?

He is (or was, I've seen his name, but it might be from old threads) a member here, and is on Dragonsfoot. 2-4 years ago, a fight broke out over a trivial discussion* on Dragonsfoot that lead Frank to say he was going to mostly leave. Frank popped back in to announce his kickstarter, and EotB asked him what could either be construed as an innocuous or a baiting question, and then some stuff the rest of us can't see happened behind the scenes (as Dumarest mentions, it's hard to tell what is going on) and it was announced that DF and Frank were parting ways.
*The scenario was that third person XYZ was a DM in a TSR-era game (of the gp=xp era), and the party thief was stealing from the party (like lots, like, they were several levels ahead of the party because of the xp discrepancy). Frank thought that was the player being a jerk. EotB thought something along the lines of, 'hey, in Gary-penned editions, it's clearly inferred that the thief stealing from the party should be something they should be on the lookout for, so apparently this is a type of play the game is expected to address'. This somehow morphed into Frank being responsible for the pussification of D&D, and it just kept getting worse from there (in both directions). The actual threads have been chopped up, with some of the worst things excised. So I'd say it's genuinely impossible at this point for those of us not present at the time to determine who was worse than whom, but only that no one came out smelling at all good.

I do not pretend to know what is going on. The K&K post is there and all (although posting a PM to a public forum is very dirty pool of EotB, even if Frank should have seen it coming), but without context it really doesn't tell me anything. That really angry person doesn't sound very rational when angry (and opponent gets to choose what context to strip out) is non-informative.

I for one am going to continue with my plans regarding the kickstarter as if I knew nothing of this dustup (because, in the end, I really do know nothing).

Not even a little interested in another bit of drama in the gaming world.

Quote from: HorusArisen;992239Honestly I suspect some of these sites would ban Gary frigging Gygax if he questioned the holy writ.

This has nothing to do with holy writs. This has to do with who (if anyone) is the actual jerk in a fight and what, if anything, forum moderators are supposed to do with regards to policing dust-ups when people go at each other hammer and tongs. Dragonsfoot does not have the clear and obvious and well-known policies that ideologically pure sites like therpgsite and TBP (which, if nothing else, you know what you are getting into) have when it comes to controlling what is allowed. DF has been trying to thread that needle since I've known of them (probably 2 decades now).

Gary actually had a significant presence on DF, it was one of his main sites. His reputed cantankerousness was either never real or had softened significantly by the time he got there (perhaps he had just gotten entirely used to there being X% of the D&D fandom who questioned his competence/motives/general decency and that was just a fact of life). I don't recall him ever doing or saying anything where they either banned him or would have banned someone else but didn't ban him because of who he was.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;992248Not even a little interested in another bit of drama in the gaming world.

Pretty much this.

Quote from: CRKrueger;992229That message from Frank sounds like he needs to moderate his meds more and stop mixing them with Wild Turkey.

However, EotB crying about a PM and sharing it with his mod clique buddies, and then post the private conversation publicly, just makes him seem like a pathetic little bitch.

DF's "policy" encourages posters to be pathetic little bitches. Part of the reason for that is DF's half-baked Miss Manners moderating style where mods tell people arguing to take it to PMs, which really brings out the passive-aggressive asshole in some posters (the blatant double-standards don't help either). In other words, I think calling another poster a crybaby, or dishonest in the forum (both of which got me suspended) is preferable to challenging someone to fisticuffs via PM (which a poster sent to my inbox with no repercussions).

Quote from: Willie the Duck;992252This has nothing to do with holy writs. This has to do with who (if anyone) is the actual jerk in a fight and what, if anything, forum moderators are supposed to do with regards to policing dust-ups when people go at each other hammer and tongs. Dragonsfoot does not have the clear and obvious and well-known policies that ideologically pure sites like therpgsite and TBP (which, if nothing else, you know what you are getting into) have when it comes to controlling what is allowed. DF has been trying to thread that needle since I've known of them (probably 2 decades now).

Gary actually had a significant presence on DF, it was one of his main sites. His reputed cantankerousness was either never real or had softened significantly by the time he got there (perhaps he had just gotten entirely used to there being X% of the D&D fandom who questioned his competence/motives/general decency and that was just a fact of life). I don't recall him ever doing or saying anything where they either banned him or would have banned someone else but didn't ban him because of who he was.

Gary died before DF went nutso with the KKA assholes.

I read the PM and he shouldn't have sent it but I understand why he did it.

Quote from: Ulairi;992258I read the PM and he shouldn't have sent it but I understand why he did it.

Honestly?
I don't. I don't think any amount of trolling (trolling, not harassment) excuses that kind of answer.
They invented Ignore lists for a reason, and I think every adult should know -and live by- the old adage: "Don't feed the trolls".
As much as EOTB was trolling, I'd probably be willing to spend money on a lawyer for him if it ever came to that.

Now Mentzer claims he never sent that PM. If true then he's owed an apology. On the other hand, he could be trying to bullshit his way out of this like Ted Cruz did when he blamed "staffing issues" when his Twitter account liked a bootleg porn video a few days ago.

Quote from: Elfdart;992284Now Mentzer claims he never sent that PM. If true then he's owed an apology. On the other hand, he could be trying to bullshit his way out of this like Ted Cruz did when he blamed "staffing issues" when his Twitter account liked a bootleg porn video a few days ago.

Let's just ignore for a minute how ridiculously easy it would be to check forum logs and determine that, yes, indeed the PM came from the same IP address as other public (but equally batshit crazy) posts made from the same account. Equally easy would be for the DF mods to confirm whether or not Frank had indeed complained about hackers at any point prior to yesterday - as he is now claiming.

Let's also ignore the redacted names from that PM. Those are the people Frank was claiming were on-board professionals in his upcoming Kickstart project. If those names come out, it's going to be real difficult to simply claim 'I was Hacked!' - unless you also admit that this mystery hacker somehow also had access to some very specific and unreleased info about the project only Frank would know.

Honest, your honor. I'm innocent. I have no idea how those condoms full of cocaine got into my lower intestine. Of course, I'm not a proctologist, so a detailed analysis of such a medical anomaly is beyond me. I will say, this whole 'smuggling' kerfuffle is as surprising to me as anyone. It's a damn shame when a man cannot even be sure about his own body. Do you think I should consult a lawyer? This libel has gone on long enough! Oh the humanity!

I know and like Frank, I think EOTB (before this) is a shitnozzle.

And you know, 30+ years of people ragging on you gets wearying.  I'm only surprised that Frank, Tim, Jim, et al, have even bothered trying out gaming again.

There's good reason Dave Trampier disappeared.  There is a high enough percentage of ass-weasels in the gaming community to make it utterly unpleasant.

Well, Mornard, one additional thing you appear to share with Frank....both of you seem ridiculously overzealous about demanding people who weren't there like you tongue your peehole. You both tend to get really bent out of shape when said peehole-tonguing doesn't materialize nearly as frequently or in the quantities you had expected. Times just ain't what they ought to be, eh?

Quote from: Kellri;992224Actually, there's a LOT more to it than some 'mild mockery'. Details have emerged today that show Frank sending at least one batshit-crazy private message the likes of which would earn a permaban on almost any rpg forum. The DF mods confirmed it was indeed from Frank. Kind of sad actually to see someone that once was at the top of the gaming world turn out to be just another raging lunatic with flecks of spittle on his keyboard. Whither that Kickstart now?

http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14851 (http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14851)

Frank's message to EOTB http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14851#p233698 was not acceptable, no matter how annoying EOTB is. I can definitely see why Steve had to ban him.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;992317I know and like Frank, I think EOTB (before this) is a shitnozzle.

And you know, 30+ years of people ragging on you gets wearying.  I'm only surprised that Frank, Tim, Jim, et al, have even bothered trying out gaming again.

There's good reason Dave Trampier disappeared.  There is a high enough percentage of ass-weasels in the gaming community to make it utterly unpleasant.

Ayup. Have to say I'm with Mike on this. DF has been, in my opinion, very disrespectful of the folks from TSR these last few years that posted on their message Forums with Gary, and even after Gary was gone. The former TSR folks and old guard have went out of their way to make themselves available to answer every legit and stupid question posted over there, although admittedly, not always being polite with their responses. I'm not always polite in my responses, and have no trouble outing retards who really want to be retarded, and do retarded stuff like, on purpose like. Being older, I don't even want to make time for such folks anymore.

Yes, Franks response was not appropriate, He probably waited waaaaaay too long to make a response to the stupidity that was going on over there, which should be factored in. Also, pretty sure the reason a private message is marked as a PM, is so the folks that are having the disagreement can privately resolve their disagreement, or not, ...the key here being private message, so EOTB is completely out of order in reposting a private message publicly, on another message board. To me, that only proves Frank's claim that he's being harassed by those douchebags. So if Steve over at Dragonsfoot was really interested in being impartial and fair, and all, he would permaban EOTB from Dragonsfoot as well. ...just 'sayin. .. And no, speaking your mind should never be a bannable offense on a public message forum, otherwise free speech dies, and then guess what happens next?

Also, isn't EOTB really just an acronym for "End of The Board" one of those stupid and inane little inside jokes made by a puerile and infantile gamer, with that subtle insulting style made famous by the douche nozzle gamers that frequent the K&K Alehouse as well as Circvs Maximvs. Look like they succeeded in doing some serious damage to DF. Have tried really hard to stay away from that crowd over the years, and here they are ...disturbing my peace again, and messing with Frank Mentzer to boot.

You poor man, I have every sympathy.  How dare those evil K&KA and Circvs Maximvs types keep doing this to you with their subtle insulting style?

QuoteYou poor man, I have every sympathy.  How dare those evil KKA and Circvs Maximvs types keep doing this to you with their subtle insulting style?

Fake sympathy gets you exactly nowhere, however is duly noted.

I owe Mr. Mentzer my love for this hobby. The red box is where I got started. I appreciate that people have different views and I also appreciate how creators might want some respect for what they've contributed to the mix. I'm not planning on tonguing any peeholes but I don't have a problem laying down some respect for those folks whose works provided me with entertainment, fun and much joy. Also, forum drama is hardly a useful measure of someone's value to humanity. The internet is a cesspool of mostly anonymous trolling with an occasional break of meaningful conversation, pertinent information or lovingly biased news. I think perhaps we need to take each other less seriously. It's easy to get our feelings hurt when really the other poster across The Cloud(tm) is just being silly or poking a jab at us. For fucks sake playing and making games is supposed to be fun! Why do people let the internet afflict butt-hurt? Just relax. Be yourself. Love what you love. Do what you do.

"This is the biggest pan-industry project in 30 years" is pretty amusing, though. Other than that, too much detail for me to bother reading more since I have no interest in the project or the people. Good luck to him, though.

Quote from: Dumarest;992338"This is the biggest pan-industry project in 30 years" is pretty amusing, though. Other than that, too much detail for me to bother reading more since I have no interest in the project or the people. Good luck to him, though.

There may be some hyperbole but what sales spiel doesn't have that. As the writer of my gateway D&D I, more than curious to see what he produces. Especially if it's as multi system as he suggests.

As for DF he's better off without that site and given how few designers still post there he's not alone.

Quote from: P&PYou poor man, I have every sympathy.  How dare those evil K&KA and Circvs Maximvs types keep doing this to you with their subtle insulting style?

That's quite rich, coming from a K&K Klansman who is also a mod on DF. See, when I mocked one of your fellow Alehouse Assholes on DF in a very similar way, I was treated to a temp-ban for a "personal attack", followed by a cringing e-mail from the head honcho admitting that he lied and there was no "personal attack". Maybe you should temp-ban yourself for this "personal attack".

I don't condone Mentzer's PM (and have already ridiculed him for it), but while it's commendable DF didn't just roll over for him, it's not commendable if you and other mods roll over for the K&K Klan.

Yay, forum wars!

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/popcorn_yes.gif)

Quote from: Elfdart;992366That's quite rich, coming from a K&K Klansman who is also a mod on DF. See, when I mocked one of your fellow Alehouse Assholes on DF in a very similar way, I was treated to a temp-ban for a "personal attack", followed by a cringing e-mail from the head honcho admitting that he lied and there was no "personal attack". Maybe you should temp-ban yourself for this "personal attack".

Equating the Knights n Knaves Alehouse with the Ku Klux Klan is hilarious, isn't it.

Quote from: Celestial;992368Yay, forum wars!

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/popcorn_yes.gif)

I miss the popcorn smiley.

I will give Frank Mentzer the benefit of the doubt. Who hasn't  cooked off on a forum before? Frank I have heard good things about Dragons' foot not so much.

Quote from: dungeon crawler;992417I will give Frank Mentzer the benefit of the doubt. Who hasn't  cooked off on a forum before? Frank I have heard good things about Dragons' foot not so much.

It was pretty cool 15 years ago. Before the K&K Klan showed up and ruined it

Quote from: P&PEquating the Knights n Knaves Alehouse with the Ku Klux Klan is hilarious, isn't it.

I thought so.

I considered just doing the lazy response and throwing your own horseshit back in your face like this:

You poor man, I have every sympathy. How dare that evil Elfdart keep doing this to you with his genius wit!

But that's much too easy.

To mock one poster for being thin-skinned and unable to take scorn and ridicule, then get all trembly over a silly nickname I gave your little clique shows that self-awareness really isn't your strong suit. I'm tempted to ridicule you more, but judging from the plangent tone of your response, I may have hurt your feelings and I would never want to do something like that. I hope you'll accept my apology with all the sincerity I offer it with.

Quote from: GameDaddy;992327Ayup. Have to say I'm with Mike on this. DF has been, in my opinion, very disrespectful of the folks from TSR these last few years that posted on their message Forums with Gary, and even after Gary was gone. The former TSR folks and old guard have went out of their way to make themselves available to answer every legit and stupid question posted over there, although admittedly, not always being polite with their responses. I'm not always polite in my responses, and have no trouble outing retards who really want to be retarded, and do retarded stuff like, on purpose like. Being older, I don't even want to make time for such folks anymore.

If your whole shtick is pretending to be more Gygaxian than Gygax himself and his most loyal retainers, you're eventually going to paint yourself into a corner when time and time again it's shown that the old hands weren't so anal retentive. Every time an old timer like Mentzer, Kask or others won't follow the K&K Klan party line, and show annoyance with the more fucktarded Alehouse Assholes, they can expect to be attacked and trolled by these miscreants.

I still don't condone the response from "exTSR" though.

i can't believe there's a bunch of bullshit drama on the internet
that usually doesn't happen

Quote from: Elfdart;992475Kask.

A source of endless wisdom Indeed.

http://lordofthegreendragons.blogspot.it/2010/07/guest-editorial-by-timothy-kask.html?m=1

Quote from: Elfdart;992366That's quite rich, coming from a K&K Klansman who is also a mod on DF. See, when I mocked one of your fellow Alehouse Assholes on DF in a very similar way, I was treated to a temp-ban for a "personal attack", followed by a cringing e-mail from the head honcho admitting that he lied and there was no "personal attack". Maybe you should temp-ban yourself for this "personal attack".

I don't condone Mentzer's PM (and have already ridiculed him for it), but while it's commendable DF didn't just roll over for him, it's not commendable if you and other mods roll over for the K&K Klan.

To bad you didn't save the email.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;992558To bad you didn't save the email.

Don't be silly! Of course I saved it.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;992522i can't believe there's a bunch of bullshit drama on the internet
that usually doesn't happen

:p;)

So we done here? All the feces thrown and penises measured?


Ulairi, are you going to post again when additional information regarding the setting/Kickstarter is forthcoming?

I remember seeing the map of Empyrea in Egg of the Phoenix as a teenager in the 80s and thinking it was quite evocative. And Frank Mentzer deserves a lot of credit, along with Holmes, for writing a version of D&D that was playable as written.

But shitting the proverbial forum bed in the very community that would be interested in his products is not the way to launch a kickstarter....

I think Frank's responses have been mild.  But I think he's mostly fucked in the head for even dealing with gamers.  I left the hobby for 15 years after five years of dealing with assholes like DF, and you would have to pay me SERIOUS money -- as in, $200 per hour or more -- to get me to do any sort of work in the game industry again.

Long gone but just had to stick up for Frank, even if he sent that PM which paints him as a real a**hat and justifiably would support a ban, I suspect it was not un-provoked and would not be surprised if he was piled on by mods, mod-pets and sock-puppets; or even if there was a call to arms from the bunker like in the days of old.   Wouldn't be surprised if there was a sociopath in the DF fold who framed Frank, it seems a ripe environment for such a person.  

Just a long way of saying, don't know Frank but people who do seem to speak for his character that even if he did this, it wasn't out of no where and based on nothing, even though it is whiny, but heck ETOB sounds like even more of a whiny bitch.  Frank may be a has-been but EOTB is a never-was.
 
Do know the history of DF, the "onetrueway" crowd there, and the double standards of behavior applied to those who follow the party line and those who do not.   So doubt they have clean hands in this.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;992660I think Frank's responses have been mild.  But I think he's mostly fucked in the head for even dealing with gamers.  I left the hobby for 15 years after five years of dealing with assholes like DF, and you would have to pay me SERIOUS money -- as in, $200 per hour or more -- to get me to do any sort of work in the game industry again.

I'm sure you've turned down many offer of $199/hour.

Quote from: Dumarest;992677I'm sure you've turned down many offer of $199/hour.

Yep.  Have to use squadrons of pikemen to keep them away.

Banning someone from the TSR era is a rite of passage for RPG forums. It's too bad Dave Trampier died young; I'm sure he could have scored some really high-quality bans.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;992687Banning someone from the TSR era is a rite of passage for RPG forums. It's too bad Dave Trampier died young; I'm sure he could have scored some really high-quality bans.

I keep petitioning them to ban Gronan just for being associated with olden days of RPGs but they keep telling me his pee-hole hasn't been tongued enough times yet.

"Tastes good, and so good for you!"

Quote from: Elfdart;992465You poor man, I have every sympathy. How dare that evil Elfdart keep doing this to you with his genius wit!

donotthinkitmeanswhatyouthinkitmeans.jpg

Tim Kask- barely on DF.
Zeb Cook- gone from DF.
Frank-banned from DF.

I'm sure it's entirely their fault that the K&K Taliban on DF has had bad interactions with them.

"P&P" obviously stands for "Pompus and Peckerheaded"

Quote from: Willmark;992730I'm sure it's entirely their fault that the K&K Taliban on DF has had bad interactions with them.

According to the internet, the evil K&KA Taliban remotely hacked Frank's account from a secret mountain hideout to create that PM.  And it's also a fake in collusion with the site staff.  And photoshopped.  And definitely not ban-worthy in any way, and shouldn't have been posted in public.

Definitely our fault it happened, anyway.

Quote from: P-P;992740According to the internet, the evil K&KA Taliban remotely hacked Frank's account from a secret mountain hideout to create that PM.  And it's also a fake in collusion with the site staff.  And photoshopped.  And definitely not ban-worthy in any way, and shouldn't have been posted in public.

Definitely our fault it happened, anyway.

Parody, how quaint. Doesn't change the facts the K&K Taliban are a bunch of ass-hats. It's always awesome to see the how you guys interact when you cant fall back to the rules/ power to ban/(insert punitive measures here) of your own enclave(s).

All-
I wonder what the odds Gary would have been run off DF for not being Gygaxian enough? Anyone want to venture?

Quote from: P&PAccording to the internet, the evil K&KA Taliban remotely hacked Frank's account from a secret mountain hideout to create that PM.  And it's also a fake in collusion with the site staff.  And photoshopped.  And definitely not ban-worthy in any way, and shouldn't have been posted in public.

Definitely our fault it happened, anyway.

Strawman much?

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Quote from: Kellri;992224Actually, there's a LOT more to it than some 'mild mockery'. Details have emerged today that show Frank sending at least one batshit-crazy private message the likes of which would earn a permaban on almost any rpg forum. The DF mods confirmed it was indeed from Frank. Kind of sad actually to see someone that once was at the top of the gaming world turn out to be just another raging lunatic with flecks of spittle on his keyboard. Whither that Kickstart now?

http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14851 (http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14851)

So he lost his shit in a PM? Big deal, compared to what the Pundit and what many of us on RPGSite post on a daily basis that is weak sauce.

Quote from: S'mon;992326Frank's message to EOTB http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14851#p233698 was not acceptable, no matter how annoying EOTB is. I can definitely see why Steve had to ban him.

But you're okay with Pundit calling people cunts?? When did RPGSiters become so sensitive to someone blowing their gasket?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;992660I think Frank's responses have been mild.  But I think he's mostly fucked in the head for even dealing with gamers.  I left the hobby for 15 years after five years of dealing with assholes like DF, and you would have to pay me SERIOUS money -- as in, $200 per hour or more -- to get me to do any sort of work in the game industry again.

Please, tell us about the previous work you did in the game industry - and I don't mean that book of tedious anecdotes you've been claiming is being written for the past couple of years either. Oh, and while you're at it maybe you can throw in some details about the SERIOUS money you're making guarding a fucking hotel lobby.

Quote from: Voros;992825So he lost his shit in a PM? Big deal, compared to what the Pundit and what many of us on RPGSite post on a daily basis that is weak sauce.

I quite liked the part where he threatened to prevent the guy from using the postal service to buy gaming pdfs or register for a convention ever again. I gotta think Frank either developed a rather serious methamphetamine problem or is suffering from not-so-early-onset Alzheimer's-related symptoms. OTOH, it would be absolutely hilarious if DrivethroughRPG or GenCon replied with an email that flatly stated 'Sorry, we cannot do business with you Mr. EOTB as we have been warned by Frank Mentzer in a very serious voice against such trade. We wish we could help, but no dice.' I mean, shit....that would be like getting blackballed by the Travellers' Aid Society. You'd be fucked and there's nothing you could ever do about it, amirite?

Quote from: Kellri;992833I quite liked the part where he threatened to prevent the guy from using the postal service to buy gaming pdfs or register for a convention ever again. I gotta think Frank either developed a rather serious methamphetamine problem or is suffering from not-so-early-onset Alzheimer's-related symptoms. OTOH, it would be absolutely hilarious if DrivethroughRPG or GenCon replied with an email that flatly stated 'Sorry, we cannot do business with you Mr. EOTB as we have been warned by Frank Mentzer in a very serious voice against such trade. We wish we could help, but no dice.' I mean, shit....that would be like getting blackballed by the Travellers' Aid Society. You'd be fucked and there's nothing you could ever do about it, amirite?

Do you know where you are? Pundit thinks people who make games he doesn't like are literally out to destroy Western Civilization itself. Mentzer's rant looks like reasoned debate in comparison.

Quote from: Kellri;992833Please, tell us about the previous work you did in the game industry - and I don't mean that book of tedious anecdotes you've been claiming is being written for the past couple of years either. Oh, and while you're at it maybe you can throw in some details about the SERIOUS money you're making guarding a fucking hotel lobby.

Aren't you claiming that Frank has stepped out of line and yet post this kind of bile-filled shit slinging?

Cognitive Dissonance?

I enjoy Dragonsfoot.

I respect Frank's past work.

I will give his new Empyrea setting a glance when it emerges.

I can seen why DF banned him, and he's very welcome to join us here.

I'd LOVE to see Frank and EOTB dance in our threads.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;992317There is a high enough percentage of ass-weasels in the gaming community to make it utterly unpleasant.

Same for any gathering of humans.

Quote from: trechriron;992335I'm not planning on tonguing any peeholes

So you keep it spontaneous? :)

Quote from: Celestial;992368Yay, forum wars!

Sounds like a fun card game!

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;992642But shitting the proverbial forum bed in the very community that would be interested in his products is not the way to launch a kickstarter....

Very true.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;992660But I think he's mostly fucked in the head for even dealing with gamers.

Dealing with the public is a mess.

But you still gotta finish your book!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;992706"Tastes good, and so good for you!"

That's just the peanut butter on the tip.

I am not a fan of the K&K forum, but its uncool to call them K&K Klansman. It insinuates a racism and criminality that isn't any part of their community.

Quote from: Elfdart;992560Don't be silly! Of course I saved it.

Considering I find that enter forum to be a giant pack of assholes, I wouldn't mind having a look, if you're willing. Hell, pm me, I'll keep it private.

Quote from: Voros;992827But you're okay with Pundit calling people cunts?? When did RPGSiters become so sensitive to someone blowing their gasket?

I think threatening to sic lawyers on people or threatening to blackball someone is orders of magnitude from simply calling someone a cunt.

Quote from: Spinachcat;992841I am not a fan of the K&K forum, but its uncool to call them K&K Klansman. It insinuates a racism and criminality that isn't any part of their community.

Right, and calling 3E fans Threetards implies that 3E fans are retarded. You're slinging chickenshit, the likes of which I haven't seen since a few morons started pearl-clutching over episodes of Seinfeld, when an overbearing restaurant employee was dubbed "The Soup Nazi". These bed-wetters claimed it was diminishing the Holocaust or implying the asshole behind the counter wanted to gas Jews. Well you know what?

NO SOUP FOR YOU! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svSGKJFSl-8)

Quote from: Voros;992827But you're okay with Pundit calling people cunts?? When did RPGSiters become so sensitive to someone blowing their gasket?

No, I put you on Ignore List. :p

Actually I do think Frank's threats against EOTB were worse than calling him a cunt. A threat is worse than abuse. And threats made in PM are worse than threats publically posted. If someone threatened me here, especially in PM, I would report it and I'd expect the threatener would be banned, that's theRPGsite policy.

I really hate to be in the position of taking EOTB's side*, his passive-aggressive trolling of Frank was pretty bad, especially the signature where he chopped up Frank's words to make out Frank was calling his 1983 Red Box D&D a kids' game. But that cannot justify what Frank did.

*I was on Frank's side arguing with EOTB in the 2015 thread that caused Frank to leave DF originally
- http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=70325&sid=dd575bd3aece66ad7c4e93a1f6648825&start=240 - by the look of things I was lucky not to get a mod warning myself.

Going back over their conversations it's quite clear EOTB is a prick.

And that list of designers who don't frequent DF anymore is missing a couple and frankly I'm not surprised.

Quote from: S'mon;992845No, I put you on Ignore List. :p

Actually I do think Frank's threats against EOTB were worse than calling him a cunt. A threat is worse than abuse. And threats made in PM are worse than threats publically posted. If someone threatened me here, especially in PM, I would report it and I'd expect the threatener would be banned, that's theRPGsite policy.

I really hate to be in the position of taking EOTB's side*, his passive-aggressive trolling of Frank was pretty bad, especially the signature where he chopped up Frank's words to make out Frank was calling his 1983 Red Box D&D a kids' game. But that cannot justify what Frank did.

*I was on Frank's side arguing with EOTB in the 2015 thread that caused Frank to leave DF originally
- http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=70325&sid=dd575bd3aece66ad7c4e93a1f6648825&start=240 - by the look of things I was lucky not to get a mod warning myself.

His threats are about as credible as Pundit's threat to send Rincewind to die in Gulag.

Quote from: Voros;992857His threats are about as credible as Pundit's threat to send Rincewind to die in Gulag.

"Credible threat" is a good standard for criminal prosecution. I don't think a threat needs to be credible to get you banned from an RPG bulletin board.

Very interesting pattern to this forum on DF:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=106

Note the dates. Nah, it's simply coincidence that the various TSR alum have been abandoning DF for years as the amount posting of K&K Taliban increased.

Funny that.

Quote from: Kellri;992833I quite liked the part where he threatened to prevent the guy from using the postal service to buy gaming pdfs or register for a convention ever again. I gotta think Frank either developed a rather serious methamphetamine problem or is suffering from not-so-early-onset Alzheimer's-related symptoms. OTOH, it would be absolutely hilarious if DrivethroughRPG or GenCon replied with an email that flatly stated 'Sorry, we cannot do business with you Mr. EOTB as we have been warned by Frank Mentzer in a very serious voice against such trade. We wish we could help, but no dice.' I mean, shit....that would be like getting blackballed by the Travellers' Aid Society. You'd be fucked and there's nothing you could ever do about it, amirite?

You'd be surprised just how often mildly famous people threaten to call the internet police on trolls.

Quote from: Willmark;992869Very interesting pattern to this forum on DF:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=106

Note the dates. Nah, it's simply coincidence that the various TSR alum have been abandoning DF for year as the amount of K&K Taliban increased.

Funny that.

Even the few that pop on do so with far less frequency

Quote from: Willmark;992869Very interesting pattern to this forum on DF:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=106

Note the dates. Nah, it's simply coincidence that the various TSR alum have been abandoning DF for years as the amount posting of K&K Taliban increased.

Funny that.

Bit butthurt about your ban still?

Hardly. 3 day time off? I wear it as a badge of honor considering the source.

Best part is I almost missed it.

Even better? Three days for an implication? Too funny.

So is this where we're supposed to ask whether he's using paid or volunteer writers? :D

Interesting thing is that I've heard that therpgsite is supposed to be this site for mean folks, but Pundit's pretty cool about welcoming people. I've seen folks who clearly have opposing views here but nothing seems to get nasty.

Quote from: Willmark;992869Very interesting pattern to this forum on DF:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=106

Note the dates. Nah, it's simply coincidence that the various TSR alum have been abandoning DF for years as the amount posting of K&K Taliban increased.

Funny that.

DF regulars are spreading out on blogs and G+ to defend the forum and are being such assholes they're turning off even more people. As you say outside the controlled confines ofntheir clubhouse they don't seem to be able to handle themselves well around others.

Quote from: Spinachcat;992840Dealing with the public is a mess.

But you still gotta finish your book!

If the mood takes me.

Some place you suggested I do a Kickstarter to get an editor.  The problem with that is, I than am beholden to other people.  Right now, nobody has put even a single penny into this, and though they could call me a lazy asshole or pompous gasbag for not working on it, I've been called far worse, but I DON'T OWE ANYBODY A DAMN THING.  Nothing ruins fun or creativity faster than an obligation to produce.

Quote from: Spinachcat;992840That's just the peanut butter on the tip.

"Why does that peanut butter have corn in it?"

I'm surprised no one has created a Q&A collage 'oral history' of D&D like the great book on American punk rock Please Kill Me which seems to have populaized the form and led to books on SNL, The Other Hollywood (the porn industry), various other regional punk scenes, etc.

I released the PM knowing it would make a bunch of people angry.  Since this thread focused on what I did for the last few pages, I'll come here to let people tell me directly, if they care, their opinion.  And then it can go back to its intended purpose.  I'm not going to get into a running debate on the subject, but I'll take whatever public beating people want to dish out while they know I can see it.

Quote from: HorusArisen;992856Going back over their conversations it's quite clear EOTB is a prick.

Deserved.

Quote from: S'mon;992845I really hate to be in the position of taking EOTB's side*, his passive-aggressive trolling of Frank was pretty bad, especially the signature where he chopped up Frank's words to make out Frank was calling his 1983 Red Box D&D a kids' game. But that cannot justify what Frank did..

Also mostly deserved.  I would asterisk one portion as described below.

Look, when I said this entire incident caused some reflection on my part, I meant it.  I don't excuse myself; I don't excuse my counterpart in this affair.  I've wasted a lot of time on RPG forums debating people about RPGs.  And it's all pretty pointless, really.  For all that people decry echo chambers, I'm now of the opinion that echo chambers are probably the only productive way to discuss them.  

RPGs are emotional things to us, given how we interact with them.  The number of people who both use them frequently and are dispassionate enough to discuss them even-handedly is so small as to be irrelevant.  When Frank gave his opinion about people who play RPGs a certain way I took great offense because it was essentially an opinion about me, or people I considered friends, and an attempt to dissuade people from playing as I play.  Just as how from the opposite side of the spectrum, when Voros saw opinions said, where he wasn't, about RPGs played a certain way, or people he considered friends, he took great offense and has since posted quite a bit about it.  Quite possibly because he considered it an opinion essentially about him.  

Not to pick on Voros except as a handy example, but neither he nor I are really capable about changing our minds.  We're invested.  Let's not pretend that the favor of the most vocal detractors on this thread is possible to obtain under any circumstances.  It wasn't possible before this week, and it won't be possible next week.  This is why I say that debating RPGs, I think, is essentially a negative outcome.  Even if there are some with whom it would be productive, the collateral damage with those with whom it is not isn't worth the activity - which brings no value in and of itself, really.  Better to identify people you're in tune with and work the creative synergy, in this specific hobby.

For myself, after Frank implied a willingness to meet with me and asked me to specifically identify myself for that purpose, and I agreed to, and then he turned around immediately afterwards and sent the first unexpected message to me - I was not really capable of changing my mind anymore.  There is no unreleased info in this chain.  I want to emphasize: the only non-public communication from me to Frank was telling him I was willing to meet with him at his request.

The sig thing was petulant of me.  After getting back the response I did after saying I was willing to meet and hash it out, I was pissed.  

So no, no dancing with anyone on RPGs anymore, I don't think.  It's a colossal waste of time.  Nobody's going to change their minds about anything.  Serve your fellow enthusiasts with creative output and let the haters hang.

But again - not sorry about releasing the PM.  I thought DF was very complementary to Frank, even in its message of explanation, and in return Frank was letting them burn in public opinion.  He apparently discussed the situation with Tenkar - I don't know what was said, or how accurate it was, or anything else.  But nothing released out of that conversation was along the lines of "mistakes were made", and like DF held him in no ill will, he didn't likewise.  

Frank's saying he forgives everyone and is moving on.  I'm doing likewise.  But if anyone wants to tell me off for the incident, they can do it here.  Or in another thread given this one's purpose.  I didn't hit the post button expecting to take zero heat or fallout.

Quote from: EOTB;992992I released the PM knowing it would make a bunch of people angry.  Since this thread focused on what I did for the last few pages, I'll come here to let people tell me directly, if they care, their opinion.  

I think it was probably best you released the PM, for the reasons you gave. I think most people already assumed Frank had sent something bad, though most likely direct to the DF admins rather than to you.

I don't think you behaved well, including in the 2015 thread, but there's people who behave worse than that on RPG forums every day of the week. There's people on this site who behave worse than that every day of the week. It shouldn't have been a big deal.

I was a bit surprised to see EOTB being involved in this as he's been pretty reasonable and polite here on RPGSite, of all places.

I do think there's a difference between debating with each other on these forums and debating with designers. Designers are here mostly as part of their job and giving them a hard time is kinda like going to 7 Eleven and knocking over a slurpy machine. Except in this case as the DF threads show if someone is unpleasant or just annoying they are likely to just disappear because why does anyone need that shit at work?

*deleted since reading EOTB's post not drunk it's not the apology I thought it was. :mad:

Quote from: EOTB;992992But again - not sorry about releasing the PM.

Bugger off. Since you clearly don't understand the meaning or implication of private message. You have no business making them, or sharing them. Have zero interest in your take on anything gaming, because my third graders have better manners than you, and for the most part (there are a few exceptions of course...) will respond to bullying far better than you did,. You were not really responding to being bullied though, ...you were actually bullying someone yourself, hoping you could taunt them into making a mistake or error. You are in the wrong place here. Go away and hang out with the people who would care about such things.  

Quote from: EOTB;992992But nothing released out of that conversation was along the lines of "mistakes were made", and like DF held him in no ill will...

Wrong again. On both counts. Pretty sure that banning someone is about the maximum amount of non-violent ill-will that exists outside of actually being hostile, because one is in effect banishing them from meaningful participation. This all came about at your hand, so you deserve what you give, and not just on Dragonsfoot. People who simply poison other peoples lives have no place amongst us gamers, ...because the poison that creeps in and destroys gaming, which should be about fun, and recreation... not about poison. Remember that.  

Also, you totally owe Frank a public apology.

Quote from: GameDaddy993010Also, you totally owe Frank a public apology.

That's hilarious. We're talking about someone (Frank) who has, on multiple occasions, flat out lied and when caught at it, didn't apologize or try to make amends. He has an established  pattern of backbiting and lying in private, and acting like the victim when it doesn't stay private. He does exactly what he did on this occasion. He blames whoever points out the lie, tries to marginalize them as less important than himself, and tries to paint them as undeserving of anything but scorn. Frankly, no pun intended, the only way to effectively deal with someone who is an unrepentant, backbiting, dishonest jackass is to shed some light on them. A public apology to someone like that would be tantamount to an admission that his brand of continual self-serving bullshit is A-Ok because it's not fair to tarnish someone's public reputation with the facts because you're not that famous.  

I'll say this much more and that's it...I've got personal friends who have worked with the man and have warned me against doing the same. I've received some pretty mean-spirited PMs from the man - not as batshit insane as the one EOTB received - more than sufficient for me to realize what kind of man I was dealing with. I applaud EOTB for getting the situation out in the open. I applaud him for coming here to speak honestly about his feelings about the matter. I don't applaud Frank, because all he's done is try to shift the blame, gaslight, and act like a victim with no responsibility for what happened.

No one walks through this life without pissing someone off. Your adolescent gossip is is kinda pathetic.

I recall FM defending Arneson against the shittiness of Kask on Gary's thread, where Kask was being cheerleaded by Gary. He basically said why keep dragging up ancient history and shitting on others. So if he's  a secret asshole I can't imagine what the rest of the early TSR crew must be like 'in reality.'

Quote from: Kellri;993111I'll say this much more and that's it...I've got personal friends who have worked with the man and have warned me against doing the same. I've received some pretty mean-spirited PMs from the man - not as batshit insane as the one EOTB received - more than sufficient for me to realize what kind of man I was dealing with. I applaud EOTB for getting the situation out in the open. I applaud him for coming here to speak honestly about his feelings about the matter. I don't applaud Frank, because all he's done is try to shift the blame, gaslight, and act like a victim with no responsibility for what happened.

Our experiences, it would seem, ...are very different. I have worked with Frank, ...directly, ...several times over the last couple of decades. Not with game design, however with the auctions and marketing, and fundraising stuff, ... at Origins, at GenCon, and at GaryCon. Never saw one mean-spirited PM. I have never even seen him raise his voice at anyone he has worked with, or who has worked for him with either publicly, or privately, so I have to strongly disagree there is any significant problem there, based on my personal experiences in working with him.

As I have observed recently firsthand, he has worked with young publishers who are working on their own new games, he is extremely encouraging and helpful to them, and in their behalf. He genuinely wants everyone around him to enjoy RPGs and gaming, and not just his games. He wants folks to enjoy attending the conventions and gaming shows where he works as well, and spends lots of extra time ensuring the experience is good for the attendees and guests of the show, especially other game designers and manufacturers. I understand very well about getting testy when people are trying to slyly infer something negative, or whom minimize the contribution of individuals who have long contributed to the benefit of the gaming community, and would have to write off any malice or deception generated by that as just old fashioned envy.

I'm extremely surprised, and displeased, that all of this "situation" of yours is coming out right now, just as Frank is beginning to get some real momentum going for his business for the first time this decade. It seems to me, this whole charade is a character assassination job, targeting him specifically, and nothing more.

So EOTB gets Frank banned from Dragonsfoot, and now he is over here at the RPGSite forums lobbying why he was right to diss on anther game designer. Now no one is right to diss on any game designer, everyone who understands what that really means anyway. The people over on Dragoosfoot aren't dissing each other, simply because they are disagreeing with each other like we are right now. But unlike me and you who are busy, at the moment disagreeing, ...EOTB couldn't be bothered to give us the time of day, until of course, he could no longer torture his favorite victim.

Now like the bully that he is, he is traveling off to other forums and boards, ...like here, and trying to find new victims, ...and stirring up some more shit. ...and you are helping him. Congratulations.

I'm a guy who has been picked on my whole life for being different, for not being a part of the "in" group. Here I got away from them douches. Now though, him, and you   ...are here, disturbing my peace. You have no right to do that.

Maybe I'm happy to just buy Franks' new game supplement, his Empyrea campaign setting, and I'm happy for the people working on it, who are happy to be working on it. But you are not. You are here, right now, trying to tank his efforts. Standing up for some guy, that is openly attacked another game designer, a game designer that has spent decades of his life making good games. You may have the right to do that here on this forum where we actually promote free speech, but you'll get no respect from me, ...for doing that.

Who hacked EOTB's account? His post was WAAAY to reasonable.

Quote from: Elfdart;992844You're slinging chickenshit,

It's aerodynamic.

Quote from: P & P;992919Bit butthurt about your ban still?

Dude, you are not helping promote Dragonsfoot.

BTW, for the rest of you, DF is a solid place for AD&D ideas and LOTS of free downloads of fan material.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;992952Nothing ruins fun or creativity faster than an obligation to produce.

Agreed.

But you mentioned you enjoyed writing and not editing. Thus, the logical next step is for you to keep having fun writing your thoughts and stories, and then when you have a giant pile of great stuff, drop it all in an editor's lap to do the heavy lifting of prepping it for readers.

This keeps getting better!

EOTB admits that he was a jackass for trolling Frank for over a year. Frank lashes out after for not only EOTB belittling his accomplishments but certain members of the Knights and Knaves Taliban think it's 100% is his fault? Here and elsewhere on the web? Classic.

Meanwhile, those of us grounded in reality realize that yes it wasn't Frank's finest hour (he's admitted as much) but at the same time over a year of harassment from zealots is going to set anyone off. EOTB admits it wasn't his either, but hey we can't let our misguided crusade to define Gary's legacy in our terms and no one else' falter now, to the ramparts! This isn't 100% Frank's fault, this isn't 100% EOTB's fault, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

And over what? Why is Frank to be attacked so? For the fact that his work was the best selling D&D product ever? Not the "Ye Holy Book" aka the 1st Edition DMG, not the PHB or MM by Gary, but the Red a Box. Really funny it burns the K&K Taliban's asses after all this time. But in the K&K Taliban's eyes that doesn't matter because he just "revised" someone else's work? (Aka one of the threads at DF where numerous K&K Taliban dog-piled about which number should be assigned to his "revision".) All of that is a bit rich considering Gary' relation with Dave and the origins of the game. But hey Taliban, keep up your selective hero worshiping!

And if you're a Taliban member responding in the negative to this post (since many of you can't help yourself) there a lot of us who don't give a shit about your hero worshiping or which version of D&D you prefer. The problem is when you leave your reservation. This is therpgsite. This isn't your enclave where you get to dictate the conversation. Here in no uncertain terms people will tell you quite clearly their mind. This isn't DF where you can shoot your mouth off and then go use the report function. In fact your instigation methods remind me of "Smugglypuff" last fall. You should look that up since it fits some to a T. Don't be surprised when those of us who won't take your shit and tell you where to go.

And keep up the defense of your attacks on Frank. Many of us don't see it. Because any interaction I've ever had with him have been great. Funny how the ones who have a problem with him primarily inhabit one website. How strange.

Lastly, it is weird that the main contention from the OSR Taliban has been Franks biggest accomplishment was a derivative work and thus worthy of scorn? Seems to me that OSR is entirely predicated on derivative work.

Quote from: Spinachcat;993142Dude, you are not helping promote Dragonsfoot.

Not here to do that; this is the RPGsite.  It divides into people who already like Dragonsfoot, people who already hate it, people who aren't interested in 1e, and people who I wouldn't want to see there.

I really like the Rules Cyclopedia. It is my favorite pre-5e edition of D&D.

Quote from: P-P;993166...people who aren't interested in 1e.

Who are these people who aren't interested in 1st Edition?

Quote from: P&P;993166and people who I wouldn't want to see there.

Something we agree on. When are you going to get rid of some posters that quite a few of us want gone?

Is this thread going to talk about "Empyrea" at all?

Quote from: Dumarest;993182Is this thread going to talk about "Empyrea" at all?

Of course not.

Quote from: Dumarest;993182Is this thread going to talk about "Empyrea" at all?

There's not much more to it, we'd need more news to chew on.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;993216There's not much more to it, we'd need more news to chew on.

Okay then, I guess that was basically a press release and then it turned into an episode of Dallas as played out by nerds on blogs and fora. Cool.

I'm not really interested but got sucked in momentarily and saw that Mr. Mentzer is claiming he never sent the private message and his account was hacked: http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2017/09/the-pm-that-got-frank-mentzer-banned.html?m=1

Weird stuff.

Quote from: P & P;993166Not here to do that; this is the RPGsite.  It divides into people who already like Dragonsfoot, people who already hate it, people who aren't interested in 1e, and people who I wouldn't want to see there.

That's only partially true.  

We have MANY fans of pre-TSR/OSR products here and MANY lurkers who know nothing about Dragonsfoot.

It's being presented as a shitshow, but I've been a DF member for many years and that's RARELY the impression I get there.

Quote from: Dumarest;993182Is this thread going to talk about "Empyrea" at all?

I would be interested in hearing more about Empyrea.

Has anyone played in Frank's campaigns in the past? Any references to this Empyrea in any of his other works?

Quote from: Spinachcat;993221It's being presented as a shitshow, but I've been a DF member for many years and that's RARELY the impression I get there.

FWIW, I've also posted at both Dragonsfoot and the Knights & Knaves Alehouse for years, and I've never had a problem. :shrugs:

QuoteHas anyone played in Frank's campaigns in the past? Any references to this Empyrea in any of his other works?

I have not, but I think some of other stuff was drawn from his campaign (e.g. Egg of the Phoenix). My impression is that Empyrea has been around as his home campaign, in some form, for a long time. I recall him talking about plans to publish it through the previous company he was involved with (Eldritch Enterprises?), too.

Quote from: Dumarest;993220Okay then, I guess that was basically a press release and then it turned into an episode of Dallas as played out by nerds on blogs and fora. Cool.

I'm not really interested but got sucked in momentarily and saw that Mr. Mentzer is claiming he never sent the private message and his account was hacked: http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2017/09/the-pm-that-got-frank-mentzer-banned.html?m=1

Weird stuff.

That's an insult to Dallas.

Quote from: Dumarest;993182Is this thread going to talk about "Empyrea" at all?

I don't really have much to say about it.  The press release didn't get me excited. Frank is a well known game designer. Neither of these facts really needs a lot more discussion.

Quote from: DavetheLost;993236I don't really have much to say about it.  The press release didn't get me excited. Frank is a well known game designer. Neither of these facts really needs a lot more discussion.

Seems like it should've been over in tbe advertising section rather than discussion section, then. Eh. I have Mr. Mentzer's Basic. I think it does a good job introducing RPGs to new players. I don't really find the described Empyrea setting interesting at all, but then I'm not really the target audience I guess.

Quote from: Willmark;993164But in the K&K Taliban's eyes that doesn't matter because he just "revised" someone else's work? (Aka one of the threads at DF where numerous K&K Taliban dog-piled about which number should be assigned to his "revision".) All of that is a bit rich considering Gary' relation with Dave and the origins of the game. But hey Taliban, keep up your selective hero worshiping!

...Franks biggest accomplishment was a derivative work and thus worthy of scorn? Seems to me that OSR is entirely predicated on derivative work.

I noted these ironies as well.

Quote from: Celestial;993231That's an insult to Dallas.

Trying to carry on without Larry Hagman was an insult to Dallas.

Quote from: Spinachcat;993142BTW, for the rest of you, DF is a solid place for AD&D ideas and LOTS of free downloads of fan material.

I've heard this many times but when I checked out DF's downloads I found only Turcotte's material worthwhile, the rest was uninspired and mediocre, what did I miss? Any recommendations?

As Baulderstone noted elsewhere there is far more good gaming material produced on a weekly basis via blogs and G+

Quote from: Voros;993249I've heard this many times but when I checked out DF's downloads I found only Turcotte's material worthwhile, the rest was uninspired and meiocre, what did I miss? Any recommendations?

As Baulderstone noted elsewhere there is far more good gaming material produced on a weekly basis via blogs and G+

Hm, I tend to agree, most DF stuff is very "Dungeon Magazine 1989" - ie not great. Basicfantasy.org has nice free stuff though.
I do use some of the character sheets on DF.

Quote from: PP;993166...people who aren't interested in 1e...

So DF is exclusively for those interested in 1e only? So why have the subforum for 'classic' D&D or 2e? Or the Q&A threads with heretics like Zeb Cook, Bruce Heard and Tracy Hickman?

Better get cracking updating the forum guidelines that say DF is for 'TSR era D&D' so no one not interested only in 1e will waste their time there.

While you're at it might as well merge with KKA, no point in having two forums dedicated exclusively to 'Gygaxian' D&D. Then you can march arm in arm together into a Golden Future of Purity in the Light of the One True Way.

Quote from: Voros;993256So DF is exclusively for those interested in 1e only?

No, the main focus on DF is TSR D&D, including everything up through 2e. There are separate forums for discussing the various editions.

QuoteBetter get cracking updating the forum guidelines that say DF is for 'TSR era D&D' so no one not interested only in 1e will waste their time there.

If you're only interested in 1e, then sticking to DF's 1e forum is a good way to handle that. I spend most of my time at DF in the 1e and General forums. There's an original D&D subforum, too, but it's not very active.

QuoteWhile you're at it might as well merge with KKA, no point in having two forums dedicated exclusively to 'Gygaxian' D&D. Then you can march arm in arm together into a Golden Future of Purity in the Light of the One True Way.

The alehouse is mainly focused on 1e, although there's also good discussion to be had in the original D&D forums. It's not at all focused on B/X, BECMI, or 2e. If you want to discuss those, other sites are better choices.

Personally, I don't see a problem with a site having a specific focus. Keeps the signal to noise ratio high, if that's what you're interested in. I don't see it being about "one true wayism," as much as "this is what we like and what we talk about, here." No big deal, IMO.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1633[/ATTACH]

Not sure who your post was addressed to as I clearly knew about the subforums on DF as I referred to them in the very post you responded to.

My point is that if DF is now just for 1e which the mod posting here clearly believes they should change the forum guidelines.

I can't see the point of two website forums dedicated to 1e with many of the same posters on both sites jerking each other off. But if you boys want to enjoy your 'No One But 1e' clubhouse you should change the sign out front.

Sorry I missed/ruined your joke.

FWIW, As someone with no real knowledge of DF, I actually found it informative.

The main point for me was the TSR alumni, I go away for a few years and they were all chased off...hence no point to the site other than...

"It was so much better then :rolleyes:"

DF was pretty nice 15-10 years ago. Around 2008 it started going to the dogs. But, I noticed a lot of forums I used to frequent started to suck around 2008.

Quote from: Ulairi;993440DF was pretty nice 15-10 years ago. Around 2008 it started going to the dogs. But, I noticed a lot of forums I used to frequent started to suck around 2008.

That's because social media started taking over, sadly.  Especially since 2012.

Quote from: Celestial;993459That's because social media started taking over, sadly.  Especially since 2012.

This

I don't have much to add. I don't think my opinion is going to sway anyone on any of the major issues like who was 'in the right' or whether DF or KKA have any self reflection to take or whether EotB was somehow doing anything noble by broadly publishing a private conversation. The only thing I have to say would be towards Frank, who is the one person involved clearly not here. Either way, if he was, I would say this--

I think, if there's any lessons to take away from this, it's that if you are being provoked by what you feel is a troll or agitator, the correct course of action is never to angrily engage. You might think you will 'put them in their place,' or 'get one up on them,' or shame them for their trollish behavior or whatever. And that never ever ever works out for you in the end.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;993478I think, if there's any lessons to take away from this, it's that if you are being provoked by what you feel is a troll or agitator, the correct course of action is never to angrily engage.

Or at least don't put it in a document that can be subpoenaed!

Quote from: Willie the Duck;993478I think, if there's any lessons to take away from this, it's that if you are being provoked by what you feel is a troll or agitator, the correct course of action is never to angrily engage. You might think you will 'put them in their place,' or 'get one up on them,' or shame them for their trollish behavior or whatever. And that never ever ever works out for you in the end.

Probably better yet is just never to engage at all if you can restrain yourself.

Quote from: Dumarest;993504Probably better yet is just never to engage at all if you can restrain yourself.

Pretty much what I meant, yeah. IMO, Frank should have responded with, "given our past altercations, EOTB, I think we should just stay out of each others' way." Or just plain not answer at all.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;993497Or at least don't put it in a document that can be subpoenaed!

Do you honestly think that any of this is going anywhere other than hurt feelings and possibly reputations tarnished amongst a very small pool of people? Let's not give ourselves too much credit for being influential.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;993261No, the main focus on DF is TSR D&D, including everything up through 2e. There are separate forums for discussing the various editions.

If you're only interested in 1e, then sticking to DF's 1e forum is a good way to handle that. I spend most of my time at DF in the 1e and General forums. There's an original D&D subforum, too, but it's not very active.

And the OD&D forums are mostly the people from ODD74 having the same discussions, alas.

Quote from: Dumarest;993504Probably better yet is just never to engage at all if you can restrain yourself.

Question. How does one restrain oneself if they are not the original author of the message, or the post? Inquiring minds want to know.

Quote from: GameDaddy;993682Question. How does one restrain oneself if they are not the original author of the message, or the post? Inquiring minds want to know.

The restraint would have been ignoring EOTB and not getting into all that back and forth as it has no good outcomes either way. He was never going to change his critics' minds; it's essentially a trap and they want you to respond because it acknowledges them.

Quote from: Dumarest;993724The restraint would have been ignoring EOTB and not getting into all that back and forth as it has no good outcomes either way. He was never going to change his critics' minds; it's essentially a trap and they want you to respond because it acknowledges them.

Especially when EOTB and other AA (Alehouse Assholes -please no tedious concern-trolling that I'm showing disrespect to Alcoholics Anonymous) are backed up by mods on the site, who protect their own. Any mockery or dismissal of the K&K Klan will incur bans, locks and so on. So while I think it was stupid to threaten them, then rage-quit, it makes a kind of warped sense: If the mods on the site are going to screw you over for arguing with their comrades (especially if they're getting owned) you might as well flame the fuck out of them.

Quote from: EOTB;992992I released the PM knowing it would make a bunch of people angry.  Since this thread focused on what I did for the last few pages, I'll come here to let people tell me directly, if they care, their opinion.  And then it can go back to its intended purpose.  I'm not going to get into a running debate on the subject, but I'll take whatever public beating people want to dish out while they know I can see it.

I have no interest in humiliating you. The way so many others have done it on DF and elsewhere, it would be gratuitous. Simply put, some people would rather have someone come right out and call them idiots or assholes or whatever than the kind of monotonous, passive-aggressive shit you enjoy -especially with mods on your side. Mentzer blew his stack when a simple "Ah, go fuck yourself" would have been better.

QuoteAlso mostly deserved.  I would asterisk one portion as described below.

Look, when I said this entire incident caused some reflection on my part, I meant it.  I don't excuse myself; I don't excuse my counterpart in this affair.  I've wasted a lot of time on RPG forums debating people about RPGs.  And it's all pretty pointless, really.  For all that people decry echo chambers, I'm now of the opinion that echo chambers are probably the only productive way to discuss them.

There is a very "productive" way to discuss RPGs or any other subject: being honest, open-minded to the possibility you might be wrong even if (Gasp!) you end up changing your mind, and not running for the mods like a whiny little bitch when you get owned.

I've had previous arguments with Mentzer myself, where he conveniently forgets things he wrote/edited in the past. I am told he has written some derogatory things about me. But here's the difference: I don't interact with him. Yes, it was funny watching him go into "Do you know who the fuck I am?" mode, but even then he only came off as the third or fourth biggest douche in the whole shitstorm.

Quote from: Elfdart;993734

Quote from: DumarestThe restraint would have been ignoring EOTB and not getting into all that back and forth as it has no good outcomes either way. He was never going to change his critics' minds; it's essentially a trap and they want you to respond because it acknowledges them.

Especially when EOTB and ...    

The thing is, the restraint Dumarest is talking about entails restrain-ing oneself. That means taking the high road when what you really want to do is get in the last word. It's not really being more adult or more mature, it just plain doesn't work if you try and do both.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;993736The thing is, the restraint Dumarest is talking about entails restrain-ing oneself. That means taking the high road when what you really want to do is get in the last word. It's not really being more adult or more mature, it just plain doesn't work if you try and do both.

It's hard to do, particularly online where you are anonymous, you may be alone with no one to vent to, and  you can hit "send" or "post" immediately and then have second thoughts. There are more than a few posts and e-mails and things I've thought better of...after the fact!

One thing I just noticed is that it appears Dragonsfoot has removed all of Frank Mentzer's Q&A threads, I believe he had two threads which go back several years.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;993736The thing is, the restraint Dumarest is talking about entails restrain-ing oneself. That means taking the high road when what you really want to do is get in the last word.

Yeah, that's what Ignore List is for. Then you have the smug satisfaction that some dickwad is yelling at you to no avail. This tends to just make the dickwad look bad to others, too.

Quote from: JRT;993803One thing I just noticed is that it appears Dragonsfoot has removed all of Frank Mentzer's Q&A threads, I believe he had two threads which go back several years.

They're unbelievable. What a cesspit of a site.

Addendum: although if Frank asked for them to be removed that's different. Anyone know?

Quote from: JRT;993803One thing I just noticed is that it appears Dragonsfoot has removed all of Frank Mentzer's Q&A threads, I believe he had two threads which go back several years.

How Communist purge-like of them. Comrade Mentzer? Who? He never existed, comrade!

Jesus fucking Christ. You guys are unbelievable. Yes, Frank Mentzer asked us to move his Q&A threads (or maybe he didn't ... how can we really be sure anyway, or know now whether he will confirm that he did?). Clearly we should have just ignored the request.

... and yes, I registered here to answer your question because the chances of it being answered otherwise are vanishingly small. I am happy to answer any other questions that I can (obviously I am not going to release private information), though I doubt my answers will satisfy, given what I have read so far in this thread. Still, I guess I can make an honest effort on my part at least.

Edit - NM, now we know

Quote from: Matthew;993876Jesus fucking Christ. You guys are unbelievable. Yes, Frank Mentzer asked us to move his Q&A threads (or maybe he didn't ... how can we really be sure anyway, or know now whether he will confirm that he did?). Clearly we should have just ignored the request.

... and yes, I registered here to answer your question because the chances of it being answered otherwise are vanishingly small. I am happy to answer any other questions that I can (obviously I am not going to release private information), though I doubt my answers will satisfy, given what I have read so far in this thread. Still, I guess I can make an honest effort on my part at least.

Please don't feel the need to do so. This entire fucked up thread exists because people think they are owed explanations for stuff that does not involve them and has happened on some other board. The tempest is cracking through the teapot. Internet drama does not need legitimization.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;993884Please don't feel the need to do so.

I definitely don't think there's any need for Dragonsfoot to defend itself on theRPGsite. Though it does make for some fun inter-forum drama. :D

My own experience of DF is that there are some obnoxiously fanatical 1e fans there, I don't mind them in the 1e forum (that's what it's for) but it gets annoying in the General forum when they assume 1e is the only game and the only version of D&D. But I've never seen the moderators be less than fair; IME they always bend over backwards to be fair to everyone within the site's remit, and I've not seen any sign of the alleged favouritism. It's better than ENW; it's a million times better than RPGnet.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;993516Do you honestly think that any of this is going anywhere other than hurt feelings and possibly reputations tarnished amongst a very small pool of people? Let's not give ourselves too much credit for being influential.

You're being dramatic.

It's just common sense: don't put anything in a document that you don't want (a) dragged out in front of other people and/or (b) dragged into court.

As to someone's forum drama? Pfftt. Does anyone care?

Quote from: darthfozzywig;994036

Quote from: Willie the DuckDo you honestly think that any of this is going anywhere other than hurt feelings and possibly reputations tarnished amongst a very small pool of people? Let's not give ourselves too much credit for being influential.

You're being dramatic.

I can honestly say that I never would have expected that statement on my part to receive that analysis.

Yeah I don't understand darthfozzywing's statement at all.

Quote from: Voros;994104Yeah I don't understand darthfozzywing's statement at all.

Now you're being dramatic.
:p

Quote from: Matthew;993876Jesus fucking Christ. You guys are unbelievable. ...

Welcome to theRPGsite!!

Don't let the unfiltered vitriol put you off. We also discuss RPGs. It's a little wild west at times, but you get the gorgeous sunsets alongside the horrible gun-fights. :D

Quote from: trechriron;994392We also discuss RPGs.

Can you give me a link to that subforum?

To return to the OP I found Mentzer's D&D modules charming but I'd have to return to them to form a proper opinion. Regardless the Red Box continues to be a model of clarity in RPGs so I'm definitely interested in checking it out.

Regarding Cyborg Commando, that particular mess reads very Gygaxian to me, I suspect FM and Mohan were handed Gary's notes and struggled to create anything coherent out of them, from all sources it also seems Gary was pretty hostile to editorial changes (and his books reflect it).

Quote from: Dumarest;994402Can you give me a link to that subforum?

It's the buried one covered in dust.

This thread is probably done for now though since we have no more info about Empyrea.

Quote from: Voros;994403To return to the OP I found Mentzer's D&D modules charming but I'd have to return to them to form a proper opinion. Regardless the Red Box continues to be a model of clarity in RPGs so I'm definitely interested in checking it out.

Regarding Cyborg Commando, that particular mess reads very Gygaxian to me, I suspect FM and Mohan were handed Gary's notes and struggled to create anything coherent out of them, from all sources it also seems Gary was pretty hostile to editorial changes (and his books reflect it).

Not possible. We all know that the words came from on high, prefect in the every form; without blemish.

According to those who weren't there...

I'd be interested in seeing it if no other reason (I believe anyway) it was conceived while FM was with Gary at TSR. Has anyone read anything as to why TSR never published it even though it's set in the same world as Greyhawk?

Quote from: GrabtharsHammer;994594I'd be interested in seeing it if no other reason (I believe anyway) it was conceived while FM was with Gary at TSR. Has anyone read anything as to why TSR never published it even though it's set in the same world as Greyhawk?

Was that stated? I must have missed that.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;994603Was that stated? I must have missed that.

I could've sworn I read that he at least had the concept and had brought it to Gary, again I may be mistaken and I apologize if I'm spreading bullshit.

Quote from: GrabtharsHammer;994611I could've sworn I read that he at least had the concept and had brought it to Gary, again I may be mistaken and I apologize if I'm spreading bullshit.

Eh, found what it might be: "When I was Gary's Creative Aide, we talked about my Campaign. We decided to publish it, but Gary wanted it very distant, with no active connections to his continent. That's what he wanted so that's what I did."  

That sounds pretty remote a stretch. But it doesn't really matter I suppose.

Quote from: Elfdart;992160*DF has issues of its own, namely that members of the K&K Klan have, with the consent of the proprietor, more or less taken over moderation duties. So, while K&Kers are free to attack other posters, any kind of lively response is twisted into being a "personal attack" and met with bans and threats of same. Similarly, when a K&Ker starts getting owned in a discussion, the bans come out, threads get locked, etc.

You make me feel glad I left that forum.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;994615Eh, found what it might be: "When I was Gary's Creative Aide, we talked about my Campaign. We decided to publish it, but Gary wanted it very distant, with no active connections to his continent. That's what he wanted so that's what I did."  

That sounds pretty remote a stretch. But it doesn't really matter I suppose.

Yep that was it, now that I see it again it's a stretch for sure...

Back in 2003, Gary talked about an expanded Greyhawk globe on some old EN World threads, and was asked about what would have been included. Here's an internet archive link that includes that discussion (https://archive.org/stream/enword_gary_gygax_qa_threads/enweggqa02_djvu.txt).

Some quotes (Gary being "Col_Pladoh"):

Quote from: Col_PladohThe would would be a complete globe with more continents and states thereon with contributions from Len Lakofka and Francois Marcela-Froideval/

There would be several WoG sourcebooks detailing places such as the Great Kingdom, the "Barbarians (Frost, ice, Snow), " etc.

A major module would be done regarding the area around the Rift and the place proper. Another dealing with the Sea of Dust would be
done. Possibly adventures regarding the Scarlet Brotherhood and the Horned Society would be available. Likely a couple of more from
Len and Francois would be in the line.

There would be some "porrtal accessed" adventures, these likely found in a series of modules detailing more of the Underdark and the
Sunless Sea. The portals would lead to non-fantasy-genre settings.

In all, for every question answered regarding the world, at least one new one would be created and left unanswered, for my purpose
was to have a world that the DM could complete and customize as suited his group.

In all likelihood Castle Greyhawk and the City of Greyhawk would be available products.

That's it off the top of my head-first time I've actually gone to such detail in considering what I would likely have done.

Cheers,
Gary

Quote from: johnsemlak

QuoteThe old old be a complete globe with more continents and states thereon with contributions from Len Lakofka and Francois Marcela-
Froideval/

This is very interesting. I wonder, would have you used the 'R" series (R3, Egg of the Pheonix, et. al. (republished as 112)) by Frank Mentzer and
others to develop a continent opposite the Flanaess? My understanding is those modules were intented to have taken place in an undeveloped
part of Oerth.

Quote from: Col_Pladoh

QuoteThis is very interesting. I wonder, would have you used the 'R" series (R3, Egg of the Pheonix, et. at. (republished as 112)) by Frank
Mentzer and others to develop a continent opposite the Flanaess? My understanding is those modules were intented to have taken
place in an undeveloped part of Oerth.

The exact form of the remainder of the globe was not settled upon. I wanted an Atlantis-like continent, and possibly a Lemirian-type one. Likely
two large continents would have been added. The nearest would house cultures akin to the Indian, Burmese, Indonesian, Chinese, Tibetan, and
Japanese. Another would likely have been the location of African-type cultures, including the Egyptian. A Lemurian culture would have been
based off the Central and South American cultures of the Aztec-Mayay-lnca sort.

Quote from: Voros;993249I've heard this many times but when I checked out DF's downloads I found only Turcotte's material worthwhile, the rest was uninspired and mediocre, what did I miss? Any recommendations?

It's a hodge podge of varying quality. Nothing specific jumps to mind, but I've gotten use out of a few maps and mini-dungeons when I didn't have time to prep.

Of course, much of that is being done via blogs these days.

Quote from: Celestial;993459Especially since 2012.

I blame the Mayans!

Quote from: Willmark;992730Tim Kask- barely on DF.
Zeb Cook- gone from DF.
Frank-banned from DF.

I'm sure it's entirely their fault that the K&K Taliban on DF has had bad interactions with them.

Jesus.

Well, the three did make one mistake, hanging out on DF instead of theRPGsite.

Quote from: RPGPundit;995625Jesus.

Well, the three did make one mistake, hanging out on DF instead of theRPGsite.

I invited Frank here on FB. But.....we did what we always do and ruin things so if I were him, I wouldn't post here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;995625Jesus.

Well, the three did make one mistake, hanging out on DF instead of theRPGsite.

Or more accurately, they weren't 1e guys and were posting on a 1e fan site.

Tim Kask is perhaps the original "OD&D is the one true way and everything later is blasphemy" zealot.  He's almost as annoying as Gronan in that regard, except mercifully he's not such an attention whore.

Zeb Cook wrote 2e which fixed some of 1e's problems while introducing others and blandening the game. The latter probably wasn't his fault, but he still did it.  

And while Mentzer did do some 1e stuff, he was mostly notable for BECMI which is a step back from B/X in terms of rules, if not presentation. In the original Expert set, thieves were promised all sorts of new abilities in the Companion set, but Mentzer discarded that, took the easy way out by spreading thieves skills to 36 levels, not 14, making them even more useless (though I know, to the OD&D crowd, the existence of thieves in the first place is blasphemy)

Quote from: JeremyR;995786...though I know, to the OD&D crowd, the existence of thieves in the first place is blasphemy)

I kind of liked Thieves when they first came out. Made the game all kinds of new and interesting. Of course the first set of rules I had for thieves was from Greyhawk, and within a few weeks of that, we started playing with the thieves from Balboa games  The Complete Warlock as well as Thieves and Assasins from Dave Hargrave's Arduin books. My fav was the thieves from Warlock, becuase they had these special abilities tables, for example a third level thief had three First Level Abilities, as well as one Second Level ability, this was in addition to the normal thief skills such as picking locks, disarming traps, hiding in shadows, etc, a thief could choose these additional abilities from the following list;

First Level Abilities
1. Detect Evil
2. Detect Good
3. Detect Magic
4. Evaluate Treasure (Appraise)
5. Jimmy Portals
6. Pick Most Locks 2/3 (1-4d6)
7. Dagger +2
8. Short Sword +2
9. Sling +2
10. Sure Strike, Dagger x3
11. Detect Noise +1/6 (improved over a regular thief listening)
12. Hide in Shadows 50%
13. Jam Portals
14. Move more silently +1/6
15. Spot Hidden Items +1/6
16. Cheat at game of skill
17. Sleight of Hand 80%
18. Pilfer from backpacks/saddlebags 50%
19. Lie Convincingly
20. Map Deciphering
21. Read 1 Extra Language
22. Start Fires
23. Tie up with Rope.

Thieves could gain up to 6th level abilities as the gained levels, so were a very interesting character class to play if the GM allowed thieves from the Warlock rules set.

Grognards. You know what am I saying?

Also, Frank Mentzer should stop by and chat us up about his project. It sounds epic and likely worthy of discussion.

The world is not a peach place where everyone loves us and everyone is nice to us. But since it's all generally a giant dark pile of shit anyways why not soak in the light of a few people who like you?

Ignore the haters. Keep on keeping on.

Also, every time I read a thread about what D&D version is the best my nipples shrivel up. You know how there's a hierarchy of needs? Is there a hierarchy of absurdity? Like, you scroll down some spiritual checklist of shit you are going to take a stand on and somehow you get stuck on D&D version?

Heirarchy of Absurdity

• Existence
• Religion
• Nationality
• Sportsball Team
• Flooring
• Shoe Style
• Weather
• Lolipop Flavor
• Pubic Grooming
• Favorite Color
• D&D Version
• Hand used for masturbation

I don't fucking care if your THACO is right side up or upside down but GODDAMMIT you WILL NOT jerk off with your left hand or I swear in tarnation's glib tongue I'll grumble grumble fart splurt mumble...

Roll initiative.

Quote from: Voros;994403Regarding Cyborg Commando, that particular mess reads very Gygaxian to me, I suspect FM and Mohan were handed Gary's notes and struggled to create anything coherent out of them, from all sources it also seems Gary was pretty hostile to editorial changes (and his books reflect it).

IIRC Cyborg Commando was a bit of a rush job for publication, released before it had undergone sufficient editing.

Quote from: DavetheLost;996008...a rush job for publication, released before it had undergone sufficient editing.

Hah! Indeed. That might be said of many RPG products (including some that are true gems despite their flaws, like the 1e DMG).

Quote from: DavetheLost;996008IIRC Cyborg Commando was a bit of a rush job for publication, released before it had undergone sufficient editing.

There's lots to say about Cyborg Commando, but frankly it was all said a long time ago and it is a little like bashing THX1138--no one really has strong opinions on it, they have strong opinions on Lucas that they are transferring onto THX1138. Same with Cyborg Commando. It wasn't good, but neither were lots of things we don't feel the need to rehash.

The dice mechanic was at least an interesting concept on how to make skill overspecialization a case of diminishing returns on investment.

Quote from: RPGPundit;995625Jesus.

Well, the three did make one mistake, hanging out on DF instead of theRPGsite.

No way the old guard could handle the Wild West nature of this forum.

Their mistakes were the fact they weren't "Gygaxian" enough or at all. Ironic since it appears from everything I read neither was Gary. So what we get is the hero-wank fest of a certain segment of the RPG scene who think they have the market cornered.

There is no perfect game, there are no perfect rules.

Hell I feel a hell of a lot better as I'm not bound by such rigid dogma: freely adapt from everywhere to suit your needs. And despite the fact that I like my game a certain way, I don't need to tell others their preferred play style is wrong.

To close I'd be curious to converse with Zeb. He really gets the Taliban going as the focus of their ire!

I do think that's a bit unfair. It's Lorraine Williams who deserves the blame.

Also, calling Cyborg Commando "badly edited" is the understatement of the year.

Quote from: RPGPundit;996974I do think that's a bit unfair. It's Lorraine Williams who deserves the blame.

Yep.

Zeb did a commendable job in a no win situation. There is really nothing wrong with the 2nd edition rules and cleaned a lot of issues up. Most people who dislike the edition complain about the tone and the move to more G rated fare, Forgotten Reealms as a setting etc. All of which really has nothing to do with the rules, and are easy fixed IMO by using 1edition rulings.

But Lorraine Williams I think she something that every gamer can agree on in terms of dislike. Although I have a hard time squaring up that she came up with the idea for the Encyclopedia Magicas which are immensely useful...

Quote from: Willmark;997042Yep.

Zeb did a commendable job in a no win situation. There is really nothing wrong with the 2nd edition rules and cleaned a lot of issues up. Most people who dislike the edition complain about the tone and the move to more G rated fare, Forgotten Reealms as a setting etc. All of which really has nothing to do with the rules, and are easy fixed IMO by using 1edition rulings.

But Lorraine Williams I think she something that every gamer can agree on in terms of dislike. Although I have a hard time squaring up that she came up with the idea for the Encyclopedia Magicas which are immensely useful...

Zeb did fine. 2e is fine. It's not the 'next-edition-after-1e' I would have made, but it addressed the common complaints at the time without doing a massive overhaul (and supposedly backwards compatibility was one of his assigned parameters).

The only non-negative thing I'll say about Williams is that just about everything I know about her is after-the-fact anecdotes from people who already hate her (that so many hate her says something, but it doesn't verify any individual tale). Since Playing at the World came out, I'm much more interested in what can be proven vs. what validates my preconceived notions. And there's very little documented about her other than she headed the company as it went bust.

Quote from: Willmark;997042Yep.

Zeb did a commendable job in a no win situation. There is really nothing wrong with the 2nd edition rules and cleaned a lot of issues up. Most people who dislike the edition complain about the tone and the move to more G rated fare, Forgotten Reealms as a setting etc. All of which really has nothing to do with the rules, and are easy fixed IMO by using 1edition rulings.

But Lorraine Williams I think she something that every gamer can agree on in terms of dislike. Although I have a hard time squaring up that she came up with the idea for the Encyclopedia Magicas which are immensely useful...

Quote from: Willie the Duck;997053Zeb did fine. 2e is fine. It's not the 'next-edition-after-1e' I would have made, but it addressed the common complaints at the time without doing a massive overhaul (and supposedly backwards compatibility was one of his assigned parameters).

The only non-negative thing I'll say about Williams is that just about everything I know about her is after-the-fact anecdotes from people who already hate her (that so many hate her says something, but it doesn't verify any individual tale). Since Playing at the World came out, I'm much more interested in what can be proven vs. what validates my preconceived notions. And there's very little documented about her other than she headed the company as it went bust.

   To be honest, I'd really like to hear Williams' side of the story one of these days. Most of what 'everybody knows' about her seems to come from Gygax, who had reason to be bitter, Dancey, who had motives to paint her in a negative light and himself as Savior of D&D and hasn't always been trustworthy, or just general gossip and innuendo.

   She did make several bad decisions, especially near the end, but she also did come up with positive ideas--not only the Encyclopedia Magica, apparently, but the format of the 1991 'Black Box' intro D&D set--and could be surprisingly decent to the employees. From an interview Monte Cook did with William W. Connors (archived at http://archive.li/VcVfD (http://archive.li/VcVfD)):

QuoteBill: I guess I should tell my favorite story about my time at TSR. It's unique, because it makes [CEO] Lorraine Williams (the woman many people -- almost certainly correctly -- blame for running the company into the ground) out to be a hero. Because of that, a lot of people don't believe it. I swear to you, though, it is 100 percent true and also explains why the company never had a more dedicated employee than I. I stayed with that sinking ship to the end and would never have left under Lorraine's watch.

Not too long after I started working at TSR, my wife was hospitalized with a very serious condition. We had two young boys (I think the oldest was three) and were really still getting used to life in the Midwest (we had moved to Lake Geneva from the east coast). It became apparent that Kathy was going to be hospitalized on and off for an extended period of time. In fact, for a good many weeks I would pick the kids up from day care, take them home, put them to bed, and then wait for a phone call telling me that my wife was dead. It was, to say the least, not a good time in my life.

It also became clear that I was not going to be able to continue working full time. Thus, with a very heavy heart, I went in to the office of the vice president and turned in my resignation. "I can't tell you how sorry I am to do this," I said, "because I have never had a job I liked so much or worked with such wonderful people." With tears in my eyes, I went upstairs and started to pack up my office.

A few minutes later, I got a phone call from Mike [Martin] (the aforementioned VP). I went down to his office and was informed that my resignation was not being accepted. He had called Lorraine (she was in Germany at a trade show) and told her what I had said. The long and the short of it was that TSR advanced me as much vacation time as I needed to care for my wife on the condition that I get in to the office as much as I could. Over the course of the next six weeks or so, I was in the office about once or twice a week. During that time, I never missed a paycheck and everyone else on the staff pitched in to keep my projects on schedule. I can't even begin to imagine what would have happened to my family if it were not for the understanding and generosity of Lorraine.

  Digging a little deeper suggests that she was a more complex person than many gamers would like to admit.

Lorraine Williams is the one that made the Buck Rogers XXVc RPG happen, and the Buck Rogers XXVc RPG was instrumental in getting me into the hobby, so she can't be all bad. ;)

I have negative interest in hearing Lorraine Williams side. She should products to gamers while also having a negative opinion of them. Why would I want to hear anything that kind of hypocrite has to say.

Quote from: sureshot;997108I have negative interest in hearing Lorraine Williams side. She should products to gamers while also having a negative opinion of them. Why would I want to hear anything that kind of hypocrite has to say.

  Do we have a solid source for this? Or is it just the kind of 'gossip and innuendo' that's grown up around her?

Quote from: Willmark;997042There is really nothing wrong with the 2nd edition rules and cleaned a lot of issues up. Most people who dislike the edition complain about the tone and the move to more G rated fare, Forgotten Reealms as a setting etc. All of which really has nothing to do with the rules, and are easy fixed IMO by using 1edition rulings.

I agree about the tone and presentation of 2e being a major factor in why I prefer 1e over 2e.  However, where the rules differ, I almost always prefer the 1e variation, so I wouldn't say that the rules have nothing to do with it. I think 2e is undeniably clearer, but clearer isn't always better (e.g., 2e initiative is far clearer, but I prefer 1e initiative - or at least my interpretation of 1e initiative). I also think 2e included some good ideas/concepts, but I often found the implementation of those ideas bland and lacking (e.g., the way 2e implemented spell schools and specialist MUs, etc).

Quote from: Willmark;997042But Lorraine Williams I think she something that every gamer can agree on in terms of dislike. Although I have a hard time squaring up that she came up with the idea for the Encyclopedia Magicas which are immensely useful...

I've never got the hate for Williams. Seems a lot unsubstaniated claims are projected onto her based on secondhand hearsay by people who have every reason in the world to hate her (Gygax, Arneson, Mentzer, Kask).

Meanwhile those who actually worked under her like Bruce Heard, Michal Breault and Zeb Cook don't have much bad to say about her and it's not like any of them have to lie today to protect their jobs.

Sure she ripped off Gygax but from Jon Peterson's excellent essay on his ouster it seems he was helping drive the business into the ground (note Person finds that Gygax was in favour of buying the infamous needlework company he later claims to have opposed) and was out to fuck over and blame the Blumes for everything (he promised to buy them out and them strung them along for weeks or months), just as he fucked over Arneson business-wise.

In business people often behave terribly and almost everything that happened to Gygax he had done earlier to others, including using copyright threats against other creators. Karma is a motherfucker indeed.

Williams brought the company back from the brink (I find Gygax's claims that he did via OE and UA highly suspect) and kept it alive for another decade plus. She obviously wasn't the creative person that Gygax was but she was a much better business person even if TSR eventually tanked. From all signs if Gygax had retained power TSR would have tanked when the first RPG bubble burst. I mean, have you actually read that shitty D&D film script he was banking on?

It is also notable that whenever a proper reporter or historian has looked into it, both Ewalt and Peterson, have found Gygax's version of events with Williams to be full of shit.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;997121Do we have a solid source for this? Or is it just the kind of 'gossip and innuendo' that's grown up around her?

Course not. It is only Gygax's friends who all left TSR with him who have ever claimed it.

As fun as it is watching Voros cry about mean peoples' irrational hatred of poor Lorraine Williams, while, as usual, spitting his own brand of Gygaxian venom and bile...

We now have actual information about Empyrea (https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/2017/09/29/qa-frank-mentzer-ted-fauster-worlds-of-empyrea/#more-5233) thanks to Dan.

So now there's no excuse for being off-topic in this Empyrea thread. :D

Everything I said are facts you can find in Peterson's essay and Ewalt's book. Sorry if they hurt your delicate feelz towards Gygax CK, you many also have noted I wasn't the only one here doubting the rumours about Williams, Armchair and Willie were as well. I was just responding to them with some actual info.

Spoiler

The only 'bile' I stated about Gygax is that he was driving the business into the ground and wasn't a fair player with his business partners, I hardly see how any rational person could dispute that. Even Gronan knows that.

Although I admire Gygax's adventure writing I don't feel that I need to softpedal his failures as a businessman.

I somehow doubt if I had just dumped on Williams you would have felt any need to comment.

If you want to just do the usual grognard circlejerk I think you'd be more comfortable on DF aka. TBP for manchildren.

Now that there's a topic to get back to, I'll at least answer, but then I'm off the threadjack:

Spoiler

Oh please, you take shots at anything you can that you think will goose those imaginary Gygaxian {insert hyperbolic metaphor representing incarnation of ultimate human evil here}.

Everyone who ran TSR was a lousy businessman, of all of them Williams was probably the best technically.
I can forgive Gary because he helped create all of it.  He could certainly be a dick though.  So can we all.
What did the Blumes ever do but lie, cheat, steal, mismanage and betray?  I dunno.
Williams kept it alive long enough to sell to WotC.  Whether that is a good thing or not, in the end, I don't know.  I'm 100% convinced TSR paid a fair market value for the license of Buck Rogers to her own family's trust, though. :rolleyes: Good on her for unlimited vacation borrowing.

I would have commented about the getting back on topic in any case, because I just read the interview and it's worth discussing.

Fair point about a thread derail although I'll note I rarely see you be such a stickler for being OP on other threads. But I've returned the favour by hiding my responses same as you have.

Spoiler

I agreed that Pundit's rhetoric of an OSR Taliban was in bad taste, so take it up with him not me. Gotta say I doubt you will though.

It is a good discussion so let's address that.

I do worry about the promise of so many rules sets. Steve Winter may be the biggest coup in terms of the team as he just co-designed ToA with Perkins which puts him pretty near the top of the RPG pile these days and could give the project industry cred since Frank has been out of the industry for so long.

Excited if the promise of Darlene returning to work bears fruit as she is my favourite of the classic era artists and map makers. Obviously a great lineup of artists is slated, almost too good to be true? If even just a few of them come through it should look great.

Am I understanding that they're going for boxsets? I know fans love them but aren't they financially difficult and couldn't it drive it into the collectors-only price bracket? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding that part.

I don't really Kickstart anymore but I do really hope it pans out as I would really like to check it out on PDF and then hardcopy if reasonably priced and available.

Although ambitious I think there is good reason to expect an actual product at the end of this, Bruce Heard for instance has proven that it can be done.

I'm intrigued but also confused. The fact they're doing a Savage Worlds version is good for me, as that's likely the version I'd get. But this is definitely going to be expensive and I'm not really sure what the heck to expect. Frank says to play with whatever races, deities, etc. you want, but I'd think those sort of details should be kinda important to shaping the world. It almost sounds like they've made a generic fantasy world with a lot of weird stuff in the background, and it's just up to the GM to fit things in and make it work. That sounds... not ideal. Hopefully the Kickstarter has more information and makes things a little more clear.

Boy, those online chat transcripts are a pain to read. Nothing about what I read pulls me in at all, but then I'm not that big on fantasy, especially not when you're calling it "average" and "vanilla" as selling points, but it sounds like an ambitious project.

They had me with the art name drops and Runequest (which I can fiddle to Mythras), roll on KS.

Quote from: Brand55;997178I'm intrigued but also confused. The fact they're doing a Savage Worlds version is good for me, as that's likely the version I'd get. But this is definitely going to be expensive and I'm not really sure what the heck to expect. Frank says to play with whatever races, deities, etc. you want, but I'd think those sort of details should be kinda important to shaping the world. It almost sounds like they've made a generic fantasy world with a lot of weird stuff in the background, and it's just up to the GM to fit things in and make it work. That sounds... not ideal. Hopefully the Kickstarter has more information and makes things a little more clear.

You sum up in one post why I am not really ecxcited about this. It sounds very kitchen sink, vanilla fantasy, lots left to the GM to make it work and all the "good stuff" kept far in the background and left unexplained.

Lots of name drops, starting with Frank Mentor, but the project sounds like something that is past its best by date. This woud have been great in the late 80s or early 90s. But I feel like the gaming world has moved on.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;997122I agree about the tone and presentation of 2e being a major factor in why I prefer 1e over 2e.  However, where the rules differ, I almost always prefer the 1e variation, so I wouldn't say that the rules have nothing to do with it. I think 2e is undeniably clearer, but clearer isn't always better (e.g., 2e initiative is far clearer, but I prefer 1e initiative - or at least my interpretation of 1e initiative). I also think 2e included some good ideas/concepts, but I often found the implementation of those ideas bland and lacking (e.g., the way 2e implemented spell schools and specialist MUs, etc).

But here's the thing, better isn't really subjective as in this sense it speaks to play-ability.

You mention Initiative. I think everyone who is honest will admit that 1st edition Initiative is a mess, no way around it and 2nd Edition works. 1st is overly elaborate and wordy and when you have DMPrata creating what? A massive doc to explain it you know its bad. You even admit as much when you say "your interpretation of it". Back in the day we never used it "as is" because its near impossible. And every time since, when we play 1st we uses something else in terms of initiative.

Tone and feel is likewise objective and doesn't really mean much because it means different things to different people.

And completely disagree on spell schools, an illusionists is just another spell caster with a different set of spells. Spheres and powers for priests is also a master stroke as opposed to every cleric having the same spells as in 1st.

Yeah I can't see how one can call 2e schools, spheres, etc 'bland and lacking' but somehow find 1e somehow superior in those terms? I mean does it get more bland than the very term 'magic user'? And as Willmark says the 1e Illusionist is pretty underwhelming and the 2e variety of Priests is way better than 1e.

Quote from: Willmark;997346You mention Initiative. I think everyone who is honest will admit that 1st edition Initiative is a mess, no way around it and 2nd Edition works.

Sure, 1e initiative is a confusing mess, and 2e initiative is much clearer. But I also think that 2e initiative's approach introduces some side effects that I don't like. I prefer taking the mess of 1e, once I've made some sense of it for my game, over the 2e approach.

QuoteTone and feel is likewise objective and doesn't really mean much because it means different things to different people.

Yep. I agree. There's no point in arguing about subjective preference.

QuoteAnd completely disagree on spell schools, an illusionists is just another spell caster with a different set of spells. Spheres and powers for priests is also a master stroke as opposed to every cleric having the same spells as in 1st.

As I said, I don't think the concept or idea is bad, I just don't think the execution was that great. For example, I like the idea of specialist magic users, I just don't like 2e's approach. I'd much prefer to have specialist sub-classes with custom lists and more flavor/abilities as part of the class.

Quote from: Voros;997353Yeah I can't see how one can call 2e schools, spheres, etc 'bland and lacking' but somehow find 1e somehow superior in those terms?

I wasn't calling the 2e approach to specialist schools bland and lacking in comparison to 1e, I was calling it bland and lacking, in general.

KS is live

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/extsr/frank-mentzers-empyrea-fantasy-setting-for-10-rpg

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;997365I wasn't calling the 2e approach to specialist schools bland and lacking in comparison to 1e, I was calling it bland and lacking, in general.

Fair enough.

That KS campaign is asking for an enormous goal--$250,000?!  

I think that is very unrealistic.  To compare, Monte Cook Game's campaigns, both for Boxed Sets and original products, have been under $100k.  The only one that even comes close to this KS amount was the recent Invisible Sun campaign, and that one has very high production costs with all the physical do-dads.

Also not entirely sure about the 10 different rules sets.  That tends to be a problem.  They recently had to cancel 2 of the 5 proposed rule sets available to the Talisanta: The Savage Land KS because of the problems getting support for it.  

I'll likely back it, and I hope he can get it funded, but this is an awfully high goal.

Quote from: JRT;997536That KS campaign is asking for an enormous goal--$250,000?!  

I think that is very unrealistic.  To compare, Monte Cook Game's campaigns, both for Boxed Sets and original products, have been under $100k.  The only one that even comes close to this KS amount was the recent Invisible Sun campaign, and that one has very high production costs with all the physical do-dads.

Also not entirely sure about the 10 different rules sets.  That tends to be a problem.  They recently had to cancel 2 of the 5 proposed rule sets available to the Talisanta: The Savage Land KS because of the problems getting support for it.  

I'll likely back it, and I hope he can get it funded, but this is an awfully high goal.

I've backed it and have fingers crossed but you may be right, it is a big ask.

Quote from: JRT;997536That KS campaign is asking for an enormous goal--$250,000?!  

I think that is very unrealistic.  To compare, Monte Cook Game's campaigns, both for Boxed Sets and original products, have been under $100k.  The only one that even comes close to this KS amount was the recent Invisible Sun campaign, and that one has very high production costs with all the physical do-dads.

Also not entirely sure about the 10 different rules sets.  That tends to be a problem.  They recently had to cancel 2 of the 5 proposed rule sets available to the Talisanta: The Savage Land KS because of the problems getting support for it.  

I'll likely back it, and I hope he can get it funded, but this is an awfully high goal.

I've signed on as a backer, but I have concerns similar to yours. This has a lot of "moving parts" that can become failure points. On the plus side there are a lot of industry veterans involved who should help bring this project to completion. I hope they have plans for whenever one or more of the creative contributors are unable to deliver. With this many people involved it almost seems inevitable that this will happen due to life events impacting someone, or there being some kind of personality conflict blowing up.

Quote from: JRT;997536That KS campaign is asking for an enormous goal--$250,000?!  

It does seem to miss that the best strategy is to set your goal low. Passing the goal then gives you something to announce, and the race for stretch goals begins, making more noise. The longer a Kickstarter takes to get to the basic goal, the more skittish people get about signing on. I don't think this Kickstarter is doomed, but it doesn't seem the best approach to get the most money.

QuoteAlso not entirely sure about the 10 different rules sets.  That tends to be a problem.  They recently had to cancel 2 of the 5 proposed rule sets available to the Talisanta: The Savage Land KS because of the problems getting support for it.

Even more, they are promising future adventure modules for all of these rule sets. That seems like it will be incredibly difficult to manage.

Obviously the logistics of getting it done are going to be rough, but it is also make me worry about lack of design focus. I look for entirely different things in a setting when using different systems. D&D variants involve levelling up fighting bigger and bigger opponents. In Savage Worlds, the characters have a lower power curve, and campaigns often ramp up as the number of combatants in fights increases. In RuneQuest, I want organizations that players join for training and support. I'd feel better if the setting was geared towards a particular game.

They seem to be making life harder than it needs to be with BECMI, S&W, and AD&D versions. Just pick one of those and any self-respecting GM using one of the other two will be able to use it just fine.

My concerns aside, I hope this all goes well.

Without clicking on any of the videos, I see 75 bucks for a hard copy that gets me one rule system, a lot of name dropping, nothing solid about why this is such a great campaign world, setting, or what ever it exactly is that I should buy it other than name dropping.

I hope it succeeds, but I'm not seeing enough to get me interested.

Well, that is without watching the video.

I'm on the other side of the fence: the only reason I would support it is if I want to support those dropped names. I'm really not in the market for another game world (except maybe to mine for ideas). I'm not sure what kind of presentation one could do for a page like this (or the videos) that could help me distinguish a great campaign world, setting, or what ever it exactly is from a not-great-one.

Of course I've backed all of one other kickstarter (Bruce Heard's 'I can't write Known World material anymore, so here's the next best thing' campaign setting). So I am the wrong person to ask how to present a KS sales pitch.

My thoughts after watching the kick starter videos:

***The funding goal is huge. And it really sounds like from Mentzer's words that this project it some sort of "legacy" project as he gets older in life. Those scary me as they translate as, "I never was an astronaut so I am looking for someone way to leave my mark on some segment of humanity before the long dirt nap." and those types of projects never reach their full potential and especially not in the life time of the author.

***A non-profit website with millions of input? Really? how about just a cool game world?

***he uses the word "vanilla" way to often. I could do vanilla when I was 14. I understand there is a time and place for it. But a weird marketing strategy.

***is this whole thing like searching for the "Unified Theory" in physics as applied to all fantasy RPG games?

That sounds frighteningly like Marc Miller's Traveller 5e.

Now that the Kickstarter is live, any way the mods can offload the Dragonsfoot non-Empyrea relevant posts to another thread?

Quote from: Voros;997146I've never got the hate for Williams. Seems a lot unsubstaniated claims are projected onto her based on secondhand hearsay by people who have every reason in the world to hate her (Gygax, Arneson, Mentzer, Kask).

Meanwhile those who actually worked under her like Bruce Heard, Michal Breault and Zeb Cook don't have much bad to say about her and it's not like any of them have to lie today to protect their jobs.

Sure she ripped off Gygax but from Jon Peterson's excellent essay on his ouster it seems he was helping drive the business into the ground (note Person finds that Gygax was in favour of buying the infamous needlework company he later claims to have opposed) and was out to fuck over and blame the Blumes for everything (he promised to buy them out and them strung them along for weeks or months), just as he fucked over Arneson business-wise.

In business people often behave terribly and almost everything that happened to Gygax he had done earlier to others, including using copyright threats against other creators. Karma is a motherfucker indeed.

Williams brought the company back from the brink (I find Gygax's claims that he did via OE and UA highly suspect) and kept it alive for another decade plus. She obviously wasn't the creative person that Gygax was but she was a much better business person even if TSR eventually tanked. From all signs if Gygax had retained power TSR would have tanked when the first RPG bubble burst. I mean, have you actually read that shitty D&D film script he was banking on?

It is also notable that whenever a proper reporter or historian has looked into it, both Ewalt and Peterson, have found Gygax's version of events with Williams to be full of shit.

I've never even seen anything close to an account of all that went down by Williams or either of the Blumes. It all seems to come from Gary who of course is the hero in his own tale. i enjoyed Empire of Imagination but did take a lot with a grain of salt and knew it was a bit valentine to Gary.

Quote from: DavetheLost;997547Without clicking on any of the videos, I see 75 bucks for a hard copy that gets me one rule system, a lot of name dropping, nothing solid about why this is such a great campaign world, setting, or what ever it exactly is that I should buy it other than name dropping.

Some info on the campaign setting, itself, can be found here:
http://worldsofempyrea.com/what-is-empyrea/

Quote from: What Is Empyrea web page

• Empyrea is based on three premises: magic instead of Technology, a sentient but indifferent Planet who knows how everything can be in balance, and royals who place quality of life (for all) above unbalancing mass whims (like war and wealth).
• These premises have far-reaching consequences, and I have spent decades extrapolating the results and applying them to an entire continental society. (I have over a thousand chatroom game logs, i.e. my laboratory.)
• Our story is about Empyrea at its height. It is geographically constrained on all four sides, and Evil wants to spoil the party. But at the moment it's a comfortable Realm, the sort of world in which your current player characters have thrived. They'll find a second home in Empyrea.
• Empyrea is on the mysterious and isolated continent of Aquaria, east of Gygax's World of Greyhawk™ setting. Until now, knowledge of this portion of the world has remained largely a mystery, as the broad and dangerous Solnor ocean separates the two. The continent is briefly described in the Advanced D&D® adventure "Egg of the Phoenix" (Mentzer & Jaquays, TSR Inc., 1987).
• Unlike others, Gary approved this personally. Empyrea combines both traditional fantasy and science fiction elements. Magic is dominant, but technology lurks. And it's one Realm... this isn't a cluster of medieval city-states like Greyhawk.
• Empyrea was settled by demi-humans (elves, dwarves, hobbits, etc) who fled from Greyhawk to escape the warring human states. A century later, human colonists arrived in the style of Columbus, intent to loot and conquer the new continent. The demi-humans successfully repelled their invasion and the humans were forced to live by their rules. The demi-human rulers are benevolant hippie types, who want everyone to live in harmony with nature, care for animals, and so on.
• Orcs were at one point treated as slaves by the civilized races, but have recently been emancipated. They are now struggling to build their own society so they can be accepted by the other races. Some of them want to get along, others want to return to their savage ways.
• The present situation is unstable. There is an evil army to the south threatening invasion, while to the north is a race of hostile giants. To the west, contact with Greyhawk has been cut off by an empire of giant squids that now rule the ocean.
• The world will include a magical art gallery where the game master can provide portals to other campaign settings.
• The setting is designed to be easy to get into and start adventuring in, so that players don't have to read lengthy setting guides before playing. The core areas are very standard fantasy like you expect from D&D, the weird stuff is hidden in the background.
• The setting does not include an original pantheon.
• SPOILERS: Additional sub-plots involve orcs trying to be civilized, dragons deciding not to be adventurer-fodder any longer, an undersea race of giant squid who actually rule the planetary ocean, a Lost World right next door, giants who may have an off-planet heritage, and Immortal beings who might just erase everything and start over. But that's all in the background, and won't affect you... much.

I dig the more unique touches like the freed Orcs and Giant Squid empire.

Quote from: Celestial;997102Lorraine Williams is the one that made the Buck Rogers XXVc RPG happen, and the Buck Rogers XXVc RPG was instrumental in getting me into the hobby, so she can't be all bad. ;)

Except she did it to essential shunt money from TSR to her family's personal fortune (she's the heiress to the copyrights to Buck Rogers).

Quote from: RPGPundit;998722Except she did it to essential shunt money from TSR to her family's personal fortune (she's the heiress to the copyrights to Buck Rogers).

I did not know this. Damn. That's a stain on an otherwise wonderful game and IP.

Quote from: RPGPundit;998722Except she did it to essential shunt money from TSR to her family's personal fortune (she's the heiress to the copyrights to Buck Rogers).

Outrageous to think anyone would be in business to make money! :eek: Next you'll tell me politicians aren't always honest!

A CEO having her company licensing IP that he personally owned prior to becoming CEO would normally be a huge no-no. The conflicts of interest are too blatantly obvious. Of course, she owned TSR, so I guess she could do whatever she wanted.

The most charitable spin to put on it is that she was trying to expand TSR as aggressively as she could, didn't understand that Buck Rogers had zero cachet in the 1990s, and thought that it was an easy win to expand into sci-fi.

Quote from: Dumarest;998779Outrageous to think anyone would be in business to make money! :eek: Next you'll tell me politicians aren't always honest!

Yeah but also take what Pundit says with a grain of salt as there is actually zero evidence for any of it except for the speculations of people who already hate her.

Quote from: Voros;998945Yeah but also take what Pundit says with a grain of salt as there is actually zero evidence for any of it except for the speculations of people who already hate her.

Well, ignoring the fan hate from Gygax fans who were angry Gary was outsted, Ryan Dancy did point out that there was a lot of left over Buck Rogers inventory, and I honestly don't think he has an axe to grind against her.  Further more, you'll note they did try to create a second Buck Rogers game with a different game system to capture the spirit again--this sort of indicates the first game didn't go over well.  Plus, regardless of intent, what you have is a person in their role as CEO licensing property she owns (from another business), therefore benefiting her own pockets.  It does raise ethical concerns--investors call the more extreme cases of that "tunneling".

Quote from: Voros;998945Yeah but also take what Pundit says with a grain of salt as there is actually zero evidence for any of it except for the speculations of people who already hate her.

While I tend to err on the side of her being a scapegoat, and certainly that we only have the word of her detractors, it's actually part of the public record that her family owns the Buck Rogers IP and that TSR licensed it for the Buck Rogers XIV game while she ran the company.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;998968While I tend to err on the side of her being a scapegoat, and certainly that we only have the word of her detractors, it's actually part of the public record that her family owns the Buck Rogers IP and that TSR licensed it for the Buck Rogers XIV game while she ran the company.

Sure, I don't doubt the game was a flop and I was aware of her family's connection to the IP, but as Peterson's research has show there is good reason to be skeptical of any received wisdom of the grognet. We have no way to know what her intentions were nor that any money was misappropriated.

Quote from: Voros;999010Sure, I don't doubt the game was a flop and I was aware of her family's connection to the IP, but as Peterson's research has show there is good reason to be skeptical of any received wisdom of the grognet. We have no way to know what her intentions were nor that any money was misappropriated.

The nerds  need a villain for their imaginary tale wherein Gygax did no wrong. Makes things easier for them to digest than human complexities are.

Quote from: Dumarest;999017The nerds  need a villain for their imaginary tale wherein Gygax did no wrong. Makes things easier for them to digest than human complexities are.

If Duck Dodgers had been a huge commercial success and brought tons of money into TSR, nobody would care that her family owned the rights.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999067If Duck Dodgers had been a huge commercial success and brought tons of money into TSR, nobody would care that her family owned the rights.

Interestingly there is a new series of novels now set between seasons one and two of the TV series starting Gil Gerard and Erin Grey, and I even saw some action figures for all the main characters from the show for sale on Amazon the other day.


For me, personally, I don't really see why anyone cares who was at the helm  and ran TSR onto the shoals...it didn't magically make D&D disappear from the cosmos. I still have all the same D&D books on my shelves: AD&D PHB, DMG, and MM, and the Basic, Expert, and Companion sets. Pretty much has served any D&D needs I've had for the past 35 years or however long.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999067If Duck Dodgers had been a huge commercial success and brought tons of money into TSR, nobody would care that her family owned the rights.

Really, we're getting the "money forgives all sins" spiel from the religious scholar? :D  

It's obvious why Voros wants to pretend there was no conflict of interest there.  For people with no Gygaxian axe to grind, it seems like even if you genuinely thought it would be a good idea, you'd be extra careful (independent valuation of the license, terms that were, if anything, weighted on the company's side, etc.) to avoid conflict of interest.  It may have been a good game, but it was a bad idea, ethics-wise, with bad optics, nevermind the fact that it actually didn't do well.

Quote from: CRKrueger;999123Really, we're getting the "money forgives all sins" spiel from the religious scholar? :D  

Don't forget, my first masters' was an MBA, even if it didn't stick.

The legal obligation of a corporation is to increase shareholder value; if Duck Dodgers had quadrupled the value of TSR stock, LW would have been fulfilling her legal duties.

Legal, ethical, and moral are three different words.

I don't pretend there is no 'conflict of interest.' Seems likely although I, and you CK are not copyright or corporate ethics experts although you like to pretend to be an expert on any and all subjects.

I just don't believe there is any evidence of the fraud and funneling of money away from TSR claim because...oh yeah: there is no such evidence.

Quote from: Voros;999129although you like to pretend to be an expert on any and all subjects.

You gotta be kidding me.  Breaking my irony meter is one thing.  You didn't have to destroy every one that exists. :eek:

Right CK, am I the one that pretends to be an expert on climate change science, human sexuality and psychology, world history, politics, even Beef in Alberta for Christs' sake?

 :rolleyes:

Quote from: Voros;999134Right CK, am I the one that pretends to be an expert on climate change science, human sexuality and psychology, world history, politics, even Beef in Alberta for Christs' sake?

 :rolleyes:

Well, since in your mind "pretends to be an expert" is really "has said something about it at some point", then I guess so.

Of course, one of your established patterns all over this site is claiming anyone who posts something about anything is a self-taught internet expert, so I'll consider the source on that criticism.  

Here's your answer to the mystery, I spent 3 weeks in Alberta and ate out a lot.  It's not exactly difficult to find out about Alberta beef.  There are beef industry and gov't publications and everything. ;)

Sorry you do all your contracting from home, the side benefit of the road warrior is getting paid to travel and eat.

I might be one of those "Wikipedia Experts" you're always claiming everyone is.  I could have taken a lot of useless college classes,  I could just read a lot.  I could just be older or smarter, or maybe you're just a little too impressed with yourself and a little resentful that you haven't made full use of your education, so see everyone else as less...everything...than you.  Or, you're just mad at me today, but since apparently you're keeping some kind of scorecard, I doubt it.

It's interesting though, to find out that apparently despite all of Jeff's claims, I'm the one that lives rent free in your head. :cool:

P.S. Feel free to show a specific instance of anything where I'm pretending to claim expertise in a field.  I'll answer with the explanation for it like I did with the Alberta beef.

Quote from: JRT;998963Ryan Dancy did point out that there was a lot of left over Buck Rogers inventory, and I honestly don't think he has an axe to grind against her.  

  No, but Dancey did a) have an interest in portraying himself and WotC as 'saviors' of D&D, and b) hasn't always been the model of integrity. That said, I don't doubt that there was a lot of unsold stock. The first game did poorly enough that some announced products (such as the hardback Technical Compendium) were never released, and the second game vanished with barely a blip. This does suggest that whether out of business sense or just fear of optics, Williams wasn't completely consumed with plowing money into the property, or we'd have seen a lot more persistence on the line.

   It certainly looks like a conflict of interest, although the details of the deal may mitigate or increase that--for all we know, she could have licensed it to TSR for a dollar and hoped to profit from a boost in the brand. But it's definitely not something that speaks well of her. If one wants to defend Williams, focus on her attempts to grow the hobby through introductory products like the Big Black Box or to diversify the company into multiple areas of gaming. (TSR made a big board-game push in the late 80s and early 90s; perhaps she was just ahead of her time? :) )

If anyone who has played the Buck Rogers game wants to start a thread about why it's awesome or sucks, I'd love to read about it. I've never seen the game. Is it based on the old stories or the TV series or Buster Crabbe serial or what?

Quote from: CRKrueger;999123Really, we're getting the "money forgives all sins" spiel from the religious scholar? :D  

It's obvious why Voros wants to pretend there was no conflict of interest there.  For people with no Gygaxian axe to grind, it seems like even if you genuinely thought it would be a good idea, you'd be extra careful (independent valuation of the license, terms that were, if anything, weighted on the company's side, etc.) to avoid conflict of interest.  It may have been a good game, but it was a bad idea, ethics-wise, with bad optics, nevermind the fact that it actually didn't do well.

If you are owner of both, there is no conflict of interest, there is merely self-interest. There's nothing unethical about licensing an IP and trying to make money off it. Is there more to this allegation or are you just naive?

Quote from: Dumarest;999202If you are owner of both, there is no conflict of interest, there is merely self-interest. There's nothing unethical about licensing an IP and trying to make money off it. Is there more to this allegation or are you just naive?

She was the CEO of TSR, and made the decision for TSR to buy the license for the Buck Rogers game from the Dille Estate, herself of course being a Dille and heir to the estate.  If she didn't buy it for a fair price, she's not fulfilling her fiduciary responsibility to TSR as CEO.  If she personally profits from that, depending on the state and whether it was a publicly traded company, she may have some 'splaining to do to State or Federal Law Enforcement.

In any case, buying something from yourself using company money to do it, doesn't look good, it looks like conflict of interest, which is why people are still talking about the stink a few decades later.

CK you're talking out of your ass, as usual, and know exactly zero of the actual business deal that may or may not have been worked out. Why not reserve judgement until the facts come to light?

Quote from: CRKrueger;999141Well, since in your mind "pretends to be an expert" is really "has said something about it at some point", then I guess so...
I'll answer with the explanation for it like I did with the Alberta beef.

Guess what genius, I live in Alberta, and have lived here regularly throughout my adult life. But guess what? That doesn't make me an expert on Alberta beef anymore than your laughable 'three weeks eating out a lot' does.

Would you like to further embarass yourself with your 'explanation' for your expertise you clown?

You're a complete egomaniac Know-It-All joke to me at this point. You're babbling about climate science would be embarrassing to anyone with a shred of self-knowledge.

Your kneejerk anti-intellectualism and attempt to pull being a Big Man because of your assumption about age also exposes you for the self-important Blowhard I always suspected you were.

Grow up, little man.

Wow, someone is pissed.  Let's take a look at what's driven you insane, shall we?

Quote from: CRKrueger;979572I will have to say, Alberta beef is damn good...It's all in how you raise the cows and what you feed them.  The best beef producers manage their cows the old fashioned way, through selective breeding, they don't shoot them full of chemicals and pack them in to stand crammed together in their own shit for their entire lives never using all that steroid-grown muscle.  

That's the statement where I'm "pretending to be an expert".

So you're telling me that I'm wrong about the way beef marketed as Alberta Beef is raised and treated?  You may want to check the Alberta Beef Producers' and Canadian Cattleman's Association websites before you answer. ;)

Climate Science?  That one confused me I must admit.  Let me look up the last time I mentioned it, and let me explain the words to you because it's clear you must have misread them.  Explanation will be in {}

Over a year ago...damn I have my own stalker now. :D

Cruesader - No one argues against climate change being real.
My Response - Eh, you see outright deniers {meaning there are those who argue there is no climate change at all}. Most of it is arguing over how much is man-made and to what degree we can adjust.

I stand by my statement.  Most climate change deniers I've seen focus on claiming we can't prove how much of it is anthropogenic, or if it's even anthropogenic at all, and/or claiming we can't prove that we can stop it, so why spend money trying?  Neither of which, btw has anything to do with Climate Science, but discussing the arguments of climate change deniers.

Cruesader - It seems like people are taking more issue with organizations trying to instill panic in the masses, and use this panic to tax or otherwise choke money out of the populous.
My Response - Some are actually worried about abuse, but than again some are trying to instill panic in the masses themselves simply because it's cheaper than cutting carbon output. {In other words, the fearmongers are the ones denying climate change}.

I stand by this statement too.  I think there are some who question the political motives of climate change supporters scientists and think they do this for their own monetary or other reasons.  I think most just are drumming up denial to save money.

Cruesader - Shitloads of people have gotten filthy rich on climate change. Remember 'Carbon Offsets'?
My Response - And many, many more stand to get much, much richer if energy technology and consumption does not change.  {There's WAY more money to be made peddling Climate Denial than Climate Change}

Yeah, this one's true as well, I've yet to say anything about actual Climate Science at this point.

Cruesader - If human actions were doing this, you'd be shocked to find that Americans aren't the worst by a long shot. China and India are trashing the environment faster than we could ever hope to fix it.
My Response - China and India are slowly killing us all just with their population levels, forget everything else. But as a developing country, Brazil is also a big problem. However, us sticking our heads in the sand, makes it impossible to make those other countries move an inch. If we actually made it part of our Foreign Policy, then we might be able to curb their excesses...or not. {Whataboutism doesn't excuse our responsibility or our opportunity to lead.}

Yep, still true.  China and India ramp up their technology much more, then when it comes to carbon emissions, we'll be a rounding error by comparison.  But they're not there yet, and we need to get shit under control before they do.  Again, not really talking about Climate Science at all.

Since you're apparently unwilling or afraid to actually use specific quotes (probably to not make yourself look as insane as you do right now) I had to guess what you were actually on about (other than you being pissed because I hit too close to the mark somewhere, of course.)

My offer still stands, feel free to quote where I am actually Spouting Lore as if I am credentialed or an expert and I'll gladly explain myself.

Quote from: Voros;999215Your kneejerk anti-intellectualism and attempt to pull being a Big Man because of your assumption about age also exposes you for the self-important Blowhard I always suspected you were.

Nah that was just me trying to torque you off and taking a wild stab.  Who knew I'd hit the battleship? :D

Quote from: Voros;999215Grow up, little man.

Aren't you the one always accusing other people of being Internet Tough Guys?

Quote from: Voros;999214CK you're talking out of your ass, as usual, and know exactly zero of the actual business deal that may or may not have been worked out. Why not reserve judgement until the facts come to light?

I never said she overpaid, violating her duty to TSR as CEO, or that she underpaid, violating her duty as a trustee of the Dille Estate.  What I said was, it didn't look good {that's what bad optics means, btw}.

More importantly, and what all this is really about,  I said you're just posting to begin with because of your hard-on for Gygax, and you got caught again, which is, of course, true. ;)

Quote from: Dumarest;999200If anyone who has played the Buck Rogers game wants to start a thread about why it's awesome or sucks, I'd love to read about it. I've never seen the game. Is it based on the old stories or the TV series or Buster Crabbe serial or what?

It was a very enjoyable game that is one of the few times I've seen D&D (classic sense/or modern) not stretch out of shape to emulate the genre/medium. Usually with licensed properties I recommend using better systems but in this case they made a great game. It's a shame it wasn't more popular.

It's a shame I can't get one of my group to post he used to run it quite regularly.

You'd think after the financial crisis and learning that loading up on carbs is actually bad for you, being skeptical of experts with financially vested backers wouldn't get you accused of insanity.

As usual it isn't the actual topic at hand but CK's need to be always 'winning' no matter what the issue.

But to get back OT Frank's KS is up to $61,000 which would be great if the goal was $100,000 but not so great for $250,000. I don't think the DF drama has much to do woth it as the regulars there are hardly big numbers and as CK said many of them disliked Basic to begin with.

I think $250,000 was just too much. Should have gone for $100,000, fewer rulesets with stretch goals up to $250,000.

Frank is also probably use to paying living wage rates as he last did a lot of RPG work back when the industry was a lot healthier and bigger than it is now.

Spoiler

Quote from: Voros;999598As usual it isn't the actual topic at hand but CK's need to be always 'winning' no matter what the issue.

Translation: That's a "no" on backing up your charges with specific examples.

I agree though, I don't know what the $250,000 is *for*.  Granted, there's a whole lot of people he has to pay off, but if this is a 40-year old campaign, there's a lot of stuff already done, I'm assuming.  

To be honest, this sounds a little like "Holy shit, that useless piehole John Wick got a million dollars, let's get the band back together and make some money."

I really want to see this fund though, it's the kind of "shoot for the moon" stuff that I think Kickstarter was made for, but you don't see a lot of, at least not in the RPG arena.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;997864Some info on the campaign setting, itself, can be found here:
http://worldsofempyrea.com/what-is-empyrea/

That sounds incredibly... boring. It's all races coming together hippie-like, with benevolent royalty who have the people's best interests in mind... where is the conflict? Even the orcs are friendly and peaceful. fuck, man.

Quote from: CRKrueger;999600To be honest, this sounds a little like "Holy shit, that useless piehole John Wick got a million dollars, let's get the band back together and make some money."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX5tfRdkoY0

Quote from: everloss;999636That sounds incredibly... boring. It's all races coming together hippie-like, with benevolent royalty who have the people's best interests in mind... where is the conflict? Even the orcs are friendly and peaceful. fuck, man.

There's a little more info on the orcs, here (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=313626412379513&id=303008346774653).

Quote from: Empyrea Facebook PageFinally, problems in the southlands:

Gorvale: Slavery, the blot on our history, ended with the fall of Lord Gorvale and the southern orc plantations. That's what we're taught, but it's wrong. Nests of half-orc slaveholders still lurk in hidden areas. Knights are digging them out, but it's a long process. As to Orcun itself (their new city name), Monko the Merciful is trying and has royal help, but their race is still primitive, and he has enemies. So King John granted them 50 years to become civilized and join the realm. Do you think they'll make it? Should we help more?

Quote from: Voros;998945Yeah but also take what Pundit says with a grain of salt as there is actually zero evidence for any of it except for the speculations of people who already hate her.

Evidence:


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dLVZnT8t1Js/TsVZ6MMnfTI/AAAAAAAABPQ/mVkGeW47Glk/s1600/buckrogers_cover.jpg)


(http://www.waynesbooks.com/images/graphics/highadventurecliffhangers.jpg)

Expert non sequitur but not evidence.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;999150It certainly looks like a conflict of interest, although the details of the deal may mitigate or increase that--for all we know, she could have licensed it to TSR for a dollar...

I read that it was a 'competitive' bid for the Buck Rogers licence; and TSR bid more for it than for the Star Wars licence!

Quote from: S'mon;1000709I read that it was a 'competitive' bid for the Buck Rogers licence; and TSR bid more for it than for the Star Wars licence!

Well, Star Wars was essentially dead or at least dormant at the time.

Also, imagine the awful job they would have done and what we would have missed if West End hadn't got the Star Wars license.

Quote from: S'mon;1000709I read that it was a 'competitive' bid for the Buck Rogers licence; and TSR bid more for it than for the Star Wars licence!

Where did you read this?

Quote from: Dumarest;1000714Well, Star Wars was essentially dead or at least dormant at the time.

Yes, West End Games got the license very cheaply for that reason. I recall reading an interview from someone at WEG talking about telling someone they had gotten the license and being scoffed at for picking up a dead license.

It might be hard to remember now, but the Star Wars comic from Marvel had died the year before. The cartoons had all failed. There were never going to be anymore movies. There were no novels being put out. GI Joe and Transformers had taken over the toy market that Star Wars used to rule. There really was nothing happening with Star Wars at all.

So the guy is, supposedly, a creep (https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/920489843821486080?s=09). And the KS is over.

Quote from: Itachi;1001713So the guy is, supposedly, a creep (https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/920489843821486080?s=09). And the KS is over.

Old dude is clueless. News at 11.

Quote from: Voros;1001780Old dude is clueless. News at 11.

I'd call his response more than clueless, and it fits right in with the messages he denied sending on that Dragonfoot thing before. Hard to square with the people who claim they know him well and he's not like that. Eh, I don't know the guy and his project didn't interest me.

It's hard to judge without knowing details, but the Old dude was indelicate by making a pass at her like that. On the other hand, she seems to have overreacted a bit (though she was right in getting pissed).

Quote from: Itachi;1001824It's hard to judge without knowing details, but the Old dude was indelicate by making a pass at her like that. On the other hand, she seems to have overreacted a bit (though she was right in getting pissed).

The "pass" wasn't the problem the way I  read it; it appeared the problem was when he started blaming victims of harassment for not defending themselves better and threatened to use his supposed influence  to destroy her career just like in the messages he claims he never sent. Maybe this account was hacked, too? ;)

(Personally I don't consider an awkward compliment online to be a pass and wouldn't have even responded to that part.)

At this point one cannot defend Frank imo. Personally I don't have any dog in the fight yet his making a pass at her was not only in poor taste. It also amounts to career suicide imo. Instead of apologizing for his actions he doubles down on his initial stupidity. There is a difference in being clueless and stupid behavior and Frank is very firmly in the second.

Quote from: Voros;1000774Where did you read this?

I don't know, possibly Ryan Dancey.

Quote from: Itachi;1001713So the guy is, supposedly, a creep (https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/920489843821486080?s=09). And the KS is over.

I think the cancellation https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/extsr/frank-mentzers-empyrea-fantasy-setting-for-10-rpg was likely more to do with the unrealistic $250,000 goal, but Frank has certainly managed to drum up plenty of bad publicity. When you have turned BOTH the Dragonsfoot grognards AND the SocJus crowd (Jessica Price & her supporters) against you, you know you're really doing something right...

Quote from: sureshot;1001847At this point one cannot defend Frank imo. Personally I don't have any dog in the fight yet his making a pass at her was not only in poor taste. It also amounts to career suicide imo. Instead of apologizing for his actions he doubles down on his initial stupidity. There is a difference in being clueless and stupid behavior and Frank is very firmly in the second.

Making a pass at one of the most active Social Justice Warriors in the RPG industry was certainly idiotic. Getting in an argument with her about sexual assault possibly even dumber (especially as I think Price is objectively right on that one).

I do think these are modern issues, and Frank seems like an old codger who had no idea what he was getting into or the implication in lost contracts - no SocJus-supporting RPG publisher will hire him now.

So for one with no access to Twitter, what's the hub bub, bub?

Quote from: Celestial;1001911So for one with no access to Twitter, what's the hub bub, bub?

I don't Twitter either, but you can read it all via the link up above...

Quote from: S'mon;1001909Making a pass at one of the most active Social Justice Warriors in the RPG industry was certainly idiotic. Getting in an argument with her about sexual assault possibly even dumber (especially as I think Price is objectively right on that one).

I do think these are modern issues, and Frank seems like an old codger who had no idea what he was getting into or the implication in lost contracts - no SocJus-supporting RPG publisher will hire him now.

Nah, my parents are older than Frank and know better than that. It's not an issue of age.

Quote from: Dumarest;1001914I don't Twitter either, but you can read it all via the link up above...

Twitter is blocked by the firewall ATM, so I can't. :P

Yeah, Dumarest is right. Receiving a message from somebody you don't really know saying "you're so beautiful I wish I was 30 years younger. Let's chat again soon" is weird and reprehensible in any era.

Unless it was on Tinder. :D

Quote from: Dumarest;1001813I'd call his response more than clueless, and it fits right in with the messages he denied sending on that Dragonfoot thing before. Hard to square with the people who claim they know him well and he's not like that. Eh, I don't know the guy and his project didn't interest me.

He certainly acted the fool but a lot of creative types are fools and creeps. This is all interpersonal drama that has gone on forever between people, it is only social media that makes it all into something we even know or care about.

These days you don't need soap operas. You have social media.

Quote from: Dumarest;1001915Nah, my parents are older than Frank and know better than that. It's not an issue of age.

Agreed and seconded. I can understand if Frank was frozen in suspended animation since the 1950s then recently thawed out. Or living in a timecapsule from the same period and released.  That might explain his somewhat questionable behavior. Now their is no reason or even excuse for to explain his recent behavior. Short of mental illness due to age.

Quote from: sureshot;1001935Agreed and seconded. I can understand if Frank was frozen in suspended animation since the 1950s then recently thawed out. Or living in a timecapsule from the same period and released.  That might explain his somewhat questionable behavior. Now their is no reason or even excuse for to explain his recent behavior. Short of mental illness due to age.

I'm pretty sure even in the '50s it wasn't cricket to threaten to destroy careers just because someone disagreed with you about whether a woman deserved harassment for not fighting back enough. Doesn't matter if the threat is credible or looney tunes.

I'm guessing this person has a GamerGate block list of some sort enabled, as when I tried to view the tweets I got the below.

 [ATTACH=CONFIG]1839[/ATTACH]

So the gossip about Frank and Her is Frank hit on her via Twitter?

I can't help myself when it comes to RPG Industry drama, it's like slowing down to watch a car crash site on the highway. Morbid Curiosity.

Quote from: Dumarest;1001939I'm pretty sure even in the '50s it wasn't cricket to threaten to destroy careers just because someone disagreed with you about whether a woman deserved harassment for not fighting back enough. Doesn't matter if the threat is credible or looney tunes.

Hard to really say with certainty though as woman had less rights back then. My point was that claiming age as a factor for his behavior is complete bullshit to me at least.

Just curious, I thought she was upset with him because he disagreed with her about how victims should respond or whatever. Did he actually threaten her job / employment in exchange for something? That last one was new to me.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1001950... was upset with him because he disagreed with her about how victims should respond...

For clarity's sake:

Price was having a conversation about a groping incident on a bus in Portland. Franks shows up (after hitting on Price in a FB exchange) to say if the woman didn't like a man she didn't know touching her on a bus she should have punched him. (Apparently, not only is unwanted touching out of the blue normal, but any sign of disinterest short of violence is -- saying "Okay"?)

Price points out that in such moments people often freeze up. Frank says this is wrong. Several women show up on the thread (all of whom have been in similar situations) and say, "Actually, yes, you freeze up." Price offers studies that show people in these situations freeze up. A man shows up who was touched inappropriately and says, "Yes, you freeze up."

Frank declares that everyone is 'sick" for stating what they are stating. (Price has screen captures. Frank says this.) Price asks him to leave the thread. Frank doesn't leave the thread. (He is, let's be clear, now arguing with with women and a man who have been assaulted and telling them they handled themselves in a sick manner).

Price blocks Frank from the thread because he won't stop posting. Frank then sends her a FB message stating he's really sorry he gave her all those compliments in the first email to her because he was all wrong about her. She asks him to stop contacting her. He starts typing a message back (she can see the little dots bubbling away as he types.) She blocks him.

For the record... all of this goes beyond "disagreeing with her" about how victims should respond. He was coming off a cantankerous bully who didn't now when to shut up -- let alone take a hint about... well, anything.

Which is the crux of the matter here. Old or not, whenever he grew up or whatever, you've got a guy who simply never seemed to learn how to interact with people. There are lots of people like this. And when the shit hits the fan they seem -- again and again -- incapable of looking at their own behavior and simply blaming everyone else.

Quote from: Gwarh;1001940I'm guessing this person has a GamerGate block list of some sort enabled, as when I tried to view the tweets I got the below.

 [ATTACH=CONFIG]1839[/ATTACH]

So the gossip about Frank and Her is Frank hit on her via Twitter?

I can't help myself when it comes to RPG Industry drama, it's like slowing down to watch a car crash site on the highway. Morbid Curiosity.

I wanted to copy/paste her Twitter feed for you, but I am way too scared of those guys. It's like discussing the Mafia :)

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1001960For clarity's sake:

Price was having a conversation about a groping incident on a bus in Portland. Franks shows up (after hitting on Price in a FB exchange) to say if the woman didn't like the man she didn't know touching her on a bus she should have punched him. Price points out that in such moments people often freeze up. Frank says this is wrong. Several women show up on the thread (all of whom have been in similar situations) and say, "Actually, yes, you freeze up." Price offers studies that show people in these situations freeze up. A man shows up who was touched inappropriately and says, "Yes, you freeze up."

Frank declares that everyone is 'sick" for stating what they are stating. (Price has screen captures. Frank says this.) Price asks him to leave the thread. Frank doesn't leave the thread. (He is, let's be clear, now arguing with with women and a man who have been assaulted and telling them they handled themselves in a sick manner).

Price blocks Frank from the FB because he won't stop posting. Frank then sends her a FB message stating he's really sorry he gave her all those compliments in the first email to her because he was all wrong about her. She asks him to stop contacting her. He starts typing a message back (she can see the little dots bubbling away as he types.) He blocks her.

For the record... all of this goes beyond "disagreeing with her" about how victims should respond. He was coming off a cantankerous bully who didn't now when to shut up -- let alone take a hint about... well, anything.

Which is the crux of the matter here. Old or not, whenever he grew up or whatever, you've got a guy who simply never seemed to learn how to interact with people. There are lots of people like this. And when the shit hits the fan they seem -- again and again -- incapable of looking at their own behavior and simply blaming everyone else.

Yes, that's what she reported, and it's presumably true.

I guess my feeling is that he was definitely being a jerk, worthy of negative gossip among friends, but he didn't deserve to be called out publicly on Twitter and have his remaining career harmed - there are posts "I was hiring him, no more!" by RPG publishers on her feed.  A few obnoxious comments does not a Harvey Weinstein make.

I had a low opinion of Price after seeing her turn Paizo's fora into a miserabilist SJW ghetto over a couple years, almost single handed. This doesn't affect my opinion of her. Her career seems to be primarily as an SJW, not doing anything constructive. It does further lower my opinion of Mentzer after the EOTB fiasco, which is a shame. I have a lot of respect for his work on BECMI D&D. Plus the SJW Inquisition may now be coming back for Aleena the Cleric's tabard... :D

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1001950Just curious, I thought she was upset with him because he disagreed with her about how victims should respond or whatever. Did he actually threaten her job / employment in exchange for something? That last one was new to me.

Yeah I haven't actually seen that only the claim. Where did he post this? Seems possible though.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1001960For the record... all of this goes beyond "disagreeing with her" about how victims should respond. He was coming off a cantankerous bully who didn't now when to shut up -- let alone take a hint about... well, anything.

The sad part is some my former gaming group were the same way. You could not try and tell them anything negative about their behavior or they did one of two things or both. Act in super passive agressive snarky manner for daring being told they acted badly. Or double down in the same manner or both. I can't believe I put up with that kind of crap for a decade then I had enough and began gaming with better behaved gamers.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1001960Which is the crux of the matter here. Old or not, whenever he grew up or whatever, you've got a guy who simply never seemed to learn how to interact with people. There are lots of people like this. And when the shit hits the fan they seem -- again and again -- incapable of looking at their own behavior and simply blaming everyone else.

While also not having a single iota of common sense. If 10 no even 5 people tell me that if someone touches them inappropriately I tend to take their word for it unless proven otherwise. Not double down and do what Frank did. Then again like my post above I had to get in a major argument with two brothers who kept falling asleep at the gaming table before they actually stopped sleeping during game sessions. Once or twice OK yet both were passing out after stuffing themselves full of junk food because they just had to play computer games until 4-5 am in the morning. Only and only once I became really angry did they stop falling asleep. You think common courtesy would dictate not falling asleep at the table out of respect for the DM. Yet if anyone else did the same in their games it was the end of the world.

Quote from: S'mon;1001967I guess my feeling is that he was definitely being a jerk, worthy of negative gossip among friends, but he didn't deserve to be called out publicly on Twitter and have his remaining career harmed - there are posts "I was hiring him, no more!" by RPG publishers on her feed.  A few obnoxious comments does not a Harvey Weinstein make.
... Her career seems to be primarily as an SJW, not doing anything constructive. It does further lower my opinion of Mentzer after the EOTB fiasco, which is a shame. I have a lot of respect for his work on BECMI D&D. Plus the SJW Inquisition may now be coming back for Aleena the Cleric's tabard... :D

I agree with almost all of what you say here. She does strike me as the kind of shit-stirrer that makes it very hard to run an office and eventually ends up near-unemployable.

Quote from: S'mon;1001967I guess my feeling is that he was definitely being a jerk, worthy of negative gossip among friends, but he didn't deserve to be called out publicly on Twitter and have his remaining career harmed - there are posts "I was hiring him, no more!" by RPG publishers on her feed.  A few obnoxious comments does not a Harvey Weinstein make.

The problem is Frank REALLY did not do a good job of handling the situation. It's like the guy who is being a creep to the girl at the bar. While ignoring his friend  who keeps telling him to stop acting that way. Then the creep wonders why the girl at the bar called the cops on him. It was a trainwreck waiting to happen and Frank did nothing to stop the train from crashing.

It also appears that Frank Mentzer threatened Tenkars Tavern (http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2017/10/how-to-have-comment-that-you-believe.html) for posting a Kickstarter backer update. Between Dragonsfoot, Tenkar, and Twitter, he sure seems set to ruin his own reputation.

If anything, this just reinforces my opinion that social media is a blight upon humanity.  Twitter especially.

Quote from: sureshot;1001977The problem is Frank REALLY did not do a good job of handling the situation. It's like the guy who is being a creep to the girl at the bar. While ignoring his friend  who keeps telling him to stop acting that way. Then the creep wonders why the girl at the bar called the cops on him. It was a trainwreck waiting to happen and Frank did nothing to stop the train from crashing.

The problem is there was once an era where slightly crazy, grumpy old men did not have the ability to randomly butt into practically any conservation, anywhere, and in this same era, if you did have a chance to be an asshole, it was typically rebuffed by the people around you scolding you for being an asshole, rather than permanently ruining your ability to obtain employment anywhere in your industry, anywhere on the planet.

I think Frank isn't all there anymore and I think the woman from Pazio like other said seems to be a professional SJW. Frank was posting last night about how he's tried to be a good progressive and understand that we live in a white supremacist country and he's taken aback. It's sad.

Quote from: Celestial;1002027If anything, this just reinforces my opinion that social media is a blight upon humanity.  Twitter especially.

Humanity is the blight upon humanity. Tools are just tools.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1002045The problem is there was once an era where slightly crazy, grumpy old men did not have the ability to randomly butt into practically any conservation, anywhere, and in this same era, if you did have a chance to be an asshole, it was typically rebuffed by the people around you scolding you for being an asshole, rather than permanently ruining your ability to obtain employment anywhere in your industry, anywhere on the planet.

  This is one of the problems--how do we properly rebuke Mentzer's bad behavior without turning into a lynch mob?

Excellent point.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1002066This is one of the problems--how do we properly rebuke Mentzer's bad behavior without turning into a lynch mob?

The only two options in this social media world are to do nothing, or to form a lynch mob and make sure that the victim of said lynch mob never works again.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1002066This is one of the problems--how do we properly rebuke Mentzer's bad behavior without turning into a lynch mob?

Does he need to be rebuked publically?

I think the solution is to ignore/block/ban someone and then move on.

I'm on the side that social media is a net harm to society and when you look at how few people actually use Twitter it's really sad it gest as much press as it does.

Once I had a woman employee who I found out had a co-worker asking her out again and again, when she kept turning him down he started to be bitchy towards her. I asked if she wanted me to step in and deal with him but she said no she could handle him. It wasn't a case of her being afraid of causing a fuss but her confidence in being able to take care of the situation. As the boss I had a responsibility to ensure it didn't go further but I also learned it is best to not assume that the woman needs to be rescued, ask them.

Here I can't see much net benefit in 'exposing' him.

There's a reason that they use to say never discuss sex, politics or religion at work. People using social media should keep that in mind, especially when it is tied to your professional life.

Quote from: Ulairi;1002078Does he need to be rebuked publically?

  A legitimate question. Some of his bad behavior was public, and I can see the merit in the argument that the private behavior should be rebuked so that others don't think they can get away with it. On the other hand, there does seem to be an appalling lack of proportion on both sides, especially if Mentzer threatened Price's livelihood as some are saying.

There is also something called being responsible for one actions. If Frank did not want to be blacklisted he should have behaved in a better fashion imo.

Yes no one is perfect yet instead of apologizing right away. He doubled down. While showing a shocking lack of common sense or any sense at all. Do I think he should have lost his job no. Yet again he did no favors to his cause or himself. Then again the norm seems to be do what you want consequences be damned.

Mentzer has lost his goddamned mind to the point where I almost feel guilty for mocking him.

Quote from: Voros;1001973I agree with almost all of what you say here. She does strike me as the kind of shit-stirrer that makes it very hard to run an office and eventually ends up near-unemployable.

She, and the SJW like her that infect Paizo will be the death of this hobby in its current incarnation. The purity purges will result in only the most craven SJW being allowed to publish anything.

Quote from: SP23;1002110She, and the SJW like her that infect Paizo will be the death of this hobby in its current incarnation. The purity purges will result in only the most craven SJW being allowed to publish anything.

Nah, they'll just be the death of their companies.

It's easier to publish now than at any time in human history. No one can stop you.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1002097A legitimate question. Some of his bad behavior was public, and I can see the merit in the argument that the private behavior should be rebuked so that others don't think they can get away with it. On the other hand, there does seem to be an appalling lack of proportion on both sides, especially if Mentzer threatened Price's livelihood as some are saying.

From what I can tell about threatening her livelihood he didn't really do that. He basically said that if you close the door you won't be able to reopen it. That's the gist of it from what I could tell on FB

Considering that Ms. Price no longer works for Paizo and now supposedly works for a video game developer (ArenaNet), I doubt he would be able to carry out said threat anyhoo.

What the FUCK is wrong with older white men these days? And I say that as a rural, small-town, gun-owning cracker pushing the big five-oh.

As a former teenage punk myself, and as a teacher of troubled, sometimes violent, kids... the current Geritol set is more authentically nihilistic and self-destructive than any teen punk, goth, or metalhead that I ever met.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1002182What the FUCK is wrong with older white men these days? And I say that as a rural, small-town, gun-owning cracker pushing the big five-oh.

As a former teenage punk myself, and as a teacher of troubled, sometimes violent, kids... the current Geritol set is more authentically nihilistic and self-destructive than any teen punk, goth, or metalhead that I ever met.

You need to get out more if you actually think that is the issue. It's not a racial/ethnic thing. It's rampant in Latino, black, Middle Easternx and Asian communities at least as much, maybe even more than in yours. Particularly in immigrant communities there is a "macho" and male-dominated culture. It's often a real barrier in my job where I need a statement for an investigation and I run into husbands and fathers who try to prevent anyone from speaking to a wife or daughter directly and they try to tell me their version of events they didn't even witness, or interrupt to tell me "what she really means."

Quote from: Dumarest;1002189You need to get out more if you actually think that is the issue. It's not a racial/ethnic thing. It's rampant in Latino, black, Middle Easternx and Asian communities at least as much, maybe even more than in yours. Particularly in immigrant communities there is a "macho" and male-dominated culture. It's often a real barrier in my job where I need a statement for an investigation and I run into husbands and fathers who try to prevent anyone from speaking to a wife or daughter directly and they try to tell me their version of events they didn't even witness, or interrupt to tell me "what she really means."

Is it getting worse? Because it seems like it's really getting worse. A kind of nasty callousness is in the air.

I'm a big Mentzer fan and his eighties boxed sets are among the tightest, most newbie-friendly RPG designs ever. This whole thing is depressing.

Quote from: Celestial;1002027If anything, this just reinforces my opinion that social media is a blight upon humanity.  Twitter especially.

It's a fascinating societal trainwreck.

The next Presidential PRIMARY will be a great sociological study into the long term effects of social media, as we will see the social media history of various candidates, their families and their associates dragged out as weapons by the opposing parties and their minions.

And I, as always, will be dancing in the warm light of Rome burning.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1002066This is one of the problems--how do we properly rebuke Mentzer's bad behavior without turning into a lynch mob?

Why should anyone not involved in the incident be involved in the rebuking?

It sounds like everyone involved was over 18 and legally competent adults.

AKA, let those affected do the slamming themselves.

Plus rebuking is nowhere as fun as making comedy out of it.

Quote from: Voros;1002084There's a reason that they use to say never discuss sex, politics or religion at work. People using social media should keep that in mind, especially when it is tied to your professional life.

Very true.

Anyone who wants a safe career path in the future should destroy all their social media accounts now.

The outrage brigades (of all stripes) and purity police (of all stripes) will use something as innocuous as a Like or a Facebook mention on a friend's page as ammunition in their witch hunts.  

Quote from: sureshot;1001977It was a trainwreck waiting to happen and Frank did nothing to stop the train from crashing.

That is a fair assessment.

Quote from: SP23;1002110She, and the SJW like her that infect Paizo will be the death of this hobby in its current incarnation. The purity purges will result in only the most craven SJW being allowed to publish anything.

NO.

NO.

NO.

SJWs are a tiny minority of actual gamers. I game with plenty of people who voted for Grandma Nixon and there's no issues because actual adults just want to have a fun games with friends and nice acquaintances during their recreation time.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1002192SJWs are a tiny minority of actual gamers.

Real committed SJWs - people like Price whose lives revolve around SocJus - seem a small minority even in RPG publishers. But small numbers can do a lot of harm. They seem to be a particular bane in no-talent-required journalism areas, a good area for controlling The Narrative. Most of the Marvel comics writers do seem to be SJWs, and I guess an RPG publisher could get eaten out from the inside like that, but RPG publishers are mostly either tiny or rely primarily on freelancers.

Three rules of SJW:

They always lie.

They always double down.

They always project.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1002221Three rules of SJW:

They always lie.

They always double down.

They always project.

You sure love your Vox Day...

This has clearly moved into political territory. Can this thread be moved?

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1002191Is it getting worse? Because it seems like it's really getting worse. A kind of nasty callousness is in the air.

In person it seems to me about the same level as ever. Online, it's definitely worse; I assume due to anonymity. People say things over the phone they would never say to your face, but e-mail, IMs, Twitter, etc. have made it possible to "speak" without thinking and have no way of retracting after reconsideration or even just correcting things poorly stated, and then there are those who just want to say nasty things because no one can identify them (or so they think).

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1002191I'm a big Mentzer fan and his eighties boxed sets are among the tightest, most newbie-friendly RPG designs ever. This whole thing is depressing.

I like boxed sets best. As for Mr. Mentzer, I only know his work on Basic D&D. I could not name one other thing he has done, but that's my ignorance as I don't follow the industry aside from whatever I happen to see on this forum and a couple of blogs here and there.

Social media also makes it possible to screenshot something someone you said that you don't like and send it to whatever list of people will cause maximum damage, or just put it on full blast in public if you've got the platform.

I suppose we're on our way to most people figuring out that saying something on social media might as well be saying something on television.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1002289Social media also makes it possible to screenshot something someone you said that you don't like and send it to whatever list of people will cause maximum damage, or just put it on full blast in public if you've got the platform.

I suppose we're on our way to most people figuring out that saying something on social media might as well be saying something on television.

It would be absurd for someone to say something on television and then sue the company broadcasting it for libel. "But I  didn't want what I said to affect me professionally!". Society has pretty much accepted that as true for as long as television has existed. It makes sense that, in an era where the United State's President has an active twitter feed, we should be considering our actions on social media in light of what professional harm they can do us.

Or just stay off social media.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1002222You sure love your Vox Day...

Honest question:  Who?  I got that from watching Youtube comic book fan reviewer videos.  And frankly, it's pretty accurate.

I'll take a known 'SJW's' word with a massive grain of salt.  That Mr. Mentzer posts are clearly evident is the only way we have the truth of the situation.

And I agree, this has gotten way too political, but that's because the topic is dead, the KS has ended.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1002298Honest question:  Who?  I got that from watching Youtube comic book fan reviewer videos.  And frankly, it's pretty accurate.

He came up with those lines.

'Vox Day' on always fair & balanced Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Day

He identifies as Alt Right, but spends as much time attacking  (http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/they-never-learn.html)Richard Spencer's 'Nazi Fake Right' (http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/dicky-spencers-dance-party.html) as he does attacking Milo-type Alt Lite sorts like Pundit (http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/mailvox-furrowed-brow.html) or mainstream 'cuckservatives' (http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/paper-nationalists.html) and left-liberals (http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/taleb-calls-out-mary-beard.html).

I haven't been following him until recently & not sure what I think of him personally. He seems to stand somewhere between the Darkness (Spencer & the Neo-Nazis) and the Lite (eg Lauren Southern, who I think is great). He's smart, high energy, has a lot of fans and a high opinion of himself. He may have some views I'd object to but I've not seen them yet. I think him and his lot are 'Hard Alt Light' - they might deny it, but really they have more in common with the civic nationalists they deride than the Alt-Reich Nazis they also deride. They hate the Nazis, but they don't reject empirical reality for ideology the way some Alt Lite do (eg Paul Joseph Watson, not Lauren Southern), which seems close to my position. But there may be differences I've not spotted yet.

Quote from: S'mon;1001962I wanted to copy/paste her Twitter feed for you, but I am way too scared of those guys. It's like discussing the Mafia :)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1844[/ATTACH]

Quote from: S'mon;1001967Y

I had a low opinion of Price after seeing her turn Paizo's fora into a miserabilist SJW ghetto over a couple years, almost single handed. This doesn't affect my opinion of her. Her career seems to be primarily as an SJW, not doing anything constructive.

It does seem to be her prime focus in life doesn't it.

Interview with Jessica Price at the somewhat ironically titled blog "nerdy but flirty (https://nerdybutflirty.com/2013/09/28/interview-with-jessica-price-project-manager-at-paizo-publishing/)".

Taking part at a Pax 2013 panel talk titled "Everything We Know Is Sexist. Now What? (//Everything%20We%20Know%20Is%20Sexist.%20Now%20What?)"

Granted if whats been reported that Frank said is true he is rather tactless leaning towards creepy, looks to be a bottomless bucked of gasoline ever on the lookout for a match.

Quote from: Dumarest;1002286I assume due to anonymity.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1845[/ATTACH]

I'd say this is the driver for 90% of the vitriol on the internet. Anonymity and Lack of Consequences.

Mentzer is ok in my book I see nothing harassment related here. Some people these days are already offended if a person says "hello" to another person. The more I read the comments around the net the more I see the whole thing as a public stunt staged by some SJW's.

Quote from: Gwarh;1002340[ATTACH=CONFIG]1845[/ATTACH]

I'd say this is the driver for 90% of the vitriol on the internet. Anonymity and Lack of Consequences.

Nope.  Anonymity is very difficult on social media, and that's where a great deal of the vitriol can be found.

Quote from: Celestial;1002355Nope.  Anonymity is very difficult on social media, and that's where a great deal of the vitriol can be found.

I can spoof everyone's IP on this site, with the right, and legal, software.  But I don't the inclination or care to.  There is NO anonymity, you will be found, if you haven't been already.

Quote from: Azraele;1002292It would be absurd for someone to say something on television and then sue the company broadcasting it for libel. "But I  didn't want what I said to affect me professionally!". Society has pretty much accepted that as true for as long as television has existed. It makes sense that, in an era where the United State's President has an active twitter feed, we should be considering our actions on social media in light of what professional harm they can do us.

Yeah, but most people didn't have the ability to wake up in the morning and start screaming into a TV camera before they've even had their coffee. So people's instincts and behavior patters aren't really ready for social media.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1002417Yeah, but most people didn't have the ability to wake up in the morning and start screaming into a TV camera before they've even had their coffee. So people's instincts and behavior patters aren't really ready for social media.

You know, that is a damn fine point

Cox Day is a racist piece of shy and if you like him you're most likely a racist piece of shit, too. He's also not very smart but he's able to make dumb people think he's smart. I hope one day Teddy will find Grace and seek forgiveness and repent from his current hateful beliefs

Quote from: John Scott;1002354Mentzer is ok in my book I see nothing harassment related here. Some people these days are already offended if a person says "hello" to another person. The more I read the comments around the net the more I see the whole thing as a public stunt staged by some SJW's.

OK, after reading this I am interested in this kerfluffle. What makes you think it is staged?

Quote from: S'mon;1001909Making a pass at one of the most active Social Justice Warriors in the RPG industry was certainly idiotic. Getting in an argument with her about sexual assault possibly even dumber (especially as I think Price is objectively right on that one).

I do think these are modern issues, and Frank seems like an old codger who had no idea what he was getting into or the implication in lost contracts - no SocJus-supporting RPG publisher will hire him now.

She states on her twitter profile that she's a howling drunken sex fiend and she's shocked that someone makes a pass.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1002182What the FUCK is wrong with older white men these days? And I say that as a rural, small-town, gun-owning cracker pushing the big five-oh.

As a former teenage punk myself, and as a teacher of troubled, sometimes violent, kids... the current Geritol set is more authentically nihilistic and self-destructive than any teen punk, goth, or metalhead that I ever met.

Moving away from this specifically, to a more general case.

Speaking as somebody who's now 62... it's a fucking hell of a shock to wake up one morning and realize you're not the apex predator any more.  This is exacerbated by our society's idolization of youth, which, ironically, the Baby Boomers started.  And there's really no established way of dealing with it.  The "wise ancient sage" image is no longer part of our cultural heritage.

It's been especially blatant when I spend any time at church events with a significant number of Dakota/Lakota/Nakota people; they treat their eldest members with the greatest of respect.

So, I'd summarize as "I used to be large and in charge and I'm not ready to be thrown on the dung heap, dammit!"

But that's just one fat old white guy's personal opinion, not worth the electrons it's written on.

Quote from: Ulairi;1002671Cox Day is a racist piece of shy and if you like him you're most likely a racist piece of shit, too.

I think you've said this a couple times - can you give me an example of what you consider racist that he's said or done?

Quote from: jeff37923;1002678OK, after reading this I am interested in this kerfluffle. What makes you think it is staged?

She seems to have archived the interaction until it could do most damage. Which isn't staged, but is malevolent.

Quote from: S'mon;1002708She seems to have archived the interaction until it could do most damage. Which isn't staged, but is malevolent.

Yeah, that is one of the things that looks suspicious.

Quote from: jeff37923;1002716Yeah, that is one of the things that looks suspicious.

I'm going to do what the American Justice System claims to do:  believe that a person is Innocent Until Proven Guilty.  Until we have definite proof, not a person's word, I disbelieve all accusations. Even if my gut tells me otherwise.

Quote from: DocJones;1002683She states on her twitter profile that she's a howling drunken sex fiend and she's shocked that someone makes a pass.

I would think most sensible people would run a mile!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1002717I'm going to do what the American Justice System claims to do:  believe that a person is Innocent Until Proven Guilty.  Until we have definite proof, not a person's word, I disbelieve all accusations. Even if my gut tells me otherwise.

I'm actually doing what logic and common sense dictates, which is to gather all possible information and analyze it before coming to a conclusion.

Like, if Mentzer made these inappropriate comments to Price in 2015 as it shows on the Twitter feed, then why did she wait so long to bring it to light?

Quote from: S'mon;1002707I think you've said this a couple times - can you give me an example of what you consider racist that he's said or done?

Your buddy teddy doesn't think whites and blacks are equally Homo sapiens sapiens. Want me to give you more? There is plenty of evidence of Teddy and his white supremacist and racist views. He's a piece of shit and you know he is but you're playin dumb. So: fuck you. It takes very little time on his blog not to know this.

I'm sorry he thinks he's a "racial realist" because he's all scientific! And he had some club music hits and one point so he's totally smart. Vox Day and everyone of his crew are shitty people

https://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/09/gondors-choice.html?m=1


He also thinks that husbands cannot rape their wives. Piece of shit.

Guys, no politics in the main forum.

Quote from: jeff37923;1002678OK, after reading this I am interested in this kerfluffle. What makes you think it is staged?

It looks to me the kind of situation drama queens are looking for to take advantage so that they can play the victim card. At least that's how I see it. The usual mob of idiots join the party and the whole thing is blown out of proportions, because according to them everything is a sexual harassment under the sun.

Quote from: Ulairi;1002726Your buddy teddy doesn't think whites and blacks are equally Homo sapiens sapiens. Want me to give you more? There is plenty of evidence of Teddy and his white supremacist and racist views. He's a piece of shit and you know he is but you're playin dumb. So: fuck you.

Hmm, I suspect by your tone you're lying re 'equally homo sapiens' and 'white supremacist', but if you do have what you consider to be evidence let me know  (by PM if you can tone down the invective). He's not my buddy. Vox Day seems very hostile to the racist element in the Alt Right from what I've seen so far, but I've only just started looking at his stuff & I thought I might have missed something.

It's one thing if she claimed sexual harassment if Frank had simply said hello or commented on her work. He said a few creepy things that he had no business telling her in the first place. He makes a comment on her looks which was bad enough. Then tries to make a pass at her if he 30 years younger. Instead of being apologetic doubles down and claims to have down nothing wrong. While after being told to not contact Jessica repeatedly which he ignores.

It's not some female SJW going on twitter claiming that was the victim of a microagression because a man asked if he could hold the door open for her. Frank fucked up big time and pretty much ruined his own career and blacklisted himself. I'm not a SJW by any means yet even I was shocked at how clueless, reckless and godawful of a complete idiot Frank was in this situation.

I don't care if your the second coming of Gary Gygax himself in this day and age and given the political climate their is certain ways to act. If your dumb enough or don't give a fuck then don't cry and whine when bad things happen.

Quote from: sureshot;1002809He makes a comment on her looks which was bad enough.

Yeah, he said she was beautiful.  What a monster.

And her response was "How sweet of you" which she claims is "code" for bugger off.
I'm going to say perhaps women shouldn't use secret codes that only they understand, but hasn't that been the history of male/female relations. :-)

It was not necessary to comment on her looks. Secondly not everyone is comfortable with that kind of familiarity. I am yet I don't assume everyone around me is. Would you be fine if some stranger came up to you and said your wife/partner/daughter/son was beautiful and said if he/she was younger he would date her. Probably not. It's not the right climate political and and otherwise to be tossing around random compliments imo. Not without knowing the person first. I don't particularily like the situation it is what it is and on adapts.

Quote from: DocJones;1002814And her response was "How sweet of you" which she claims is "code" for bugger off.

I do find that pretty annoying. If she were at all honest, given who she is, she would have told him to bugger off, or at least "that's not appropriate". But if she were at all honest she'd not have archived this until Frank's kickstarter + Harver Weinstein.

OTOH Frank was still being a jerk, esp on the sex assault discussion.
OTOOH the punishment never fits the crime these days.

Quote from: sureshot;1002817Would you be fine if some stranger came up to you and said your wife/partner/daughter/son was beautiful and said if he/she was younger he would date her.

That seems like a silly comparison though. In our culture men ask women out, if Frank *had* been 25-30 years younger, and not talking to an SJW, there might not have been anything wrong with him messaging her. Even if she did reject the chat-up.

What was once acceptable is no longer as such. Nowadays asking a random women out on a date espceially a total stranger can get one in trouble. Frank was asking way too familiar with Jessica imo. You get to know a person first. Find out their boundaries on what they will or will not allow. More importantly find out if their is a mutual interest on dating. Not "I like your work and BTW your super hot and if I was younger I would totally date you" to someone one barely knows. Their a fine line between outgoing and being creepy. If I ask someone for a date I make sure to either know the person. Or have that person referred to by a friend. If it's a blind date those have their own rules. Actions have consequences, people are responsible for their own actions and claiming it's been done before is a poorly disguised dodge to try and not take responsiblity for one actions as far as I'm concerned.

I was not out to see Frank blacklisted but fuck, FUCK he really did not do himself any favors. Especially given how many rpg companies are not tolerant of that kind of behavior now. Those that are more tolerant won't probably have anything to do with him for fear of losing sales.

Quote from: S'mon;1002818I do find that pretty annoying. If she were at all honest, given who she is, she would have told him to bugger off, or at least "that's not appropriate". But if she were at all honest she'd not have archived this until Frank's kickstarter + Harver Weinstein.

OTOH Frank was still being a jerk, esp on the sex assault discussion.
OTOOH the punishment never fits the crime these days.

I can understand some people furrowing their brows over the timing, just as Frank Mentzer makes his play for (what he apparently imagined would be) the big quarter mil payoff...

On the other hand I can think of two understandable reasons for her coming out with this at this very point in time, both more plausible than her deliberately lying in wait for two years to ambush the guy at the most opportune time.

It's no wonder why people are full of stress today and why psychiatrists are doing golden buissnes. I don't know in what kind of shitholes some of you are living but where I live flirting or asking a woman out is totally normal. Especially in vacations it's the normal thing to do. Fucking lunatics.

Quote from: John Scott;1002839It's no wonder why people are full of stress today and why psychiatrists are doing golden buissnes. I don't know in what kind of shitholes some of you are living but where I live flirting or asking a woman out is totally normal. Especially in vacations it's the normal thing to do. Fucking lunatics.

That's cool! What thread are you participating in? Because you've clearly missed the point.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;1002840That's cool! What thread are you participating in? Because you've clearly missed the point.

No, I don't think that he has.

See, the point was made that the act of even politely asking a woman out was offensive, which does not work very well in the Real World and seems to be an overreaction.

Quote from: jeff37923;1002845No, I don't think that he has.

See, the point was made that the act of even politely asking a woman out was offensive, which does not work very well in the Real World and seems to be an overreaction.

As I said above, I thought the part people were worked up over was the "assault victims should defend themselves better" stuff, not the "gee, if I were younger I'd like to meet you" stuff.

I'm not saying one should never ask a woman out. Some women have no issues with it. Some do. If it's obvious a woman has no interest and is clearly bothered by it. One walks awzy. One dpes not keep pestering the women then wonders why she called the police. Instead of apologising to the women doubling down and claiming people get easily offended.

Plus some of you are full of crap. If it was your child, significant other, family member some of you would be screaming bloody murder and calling for Frank head if it hspoened to someone close to you. Since it's someone else it's ok.

Quote from: Dumarest;1002848As I said above, I thought the part people were worked up over was the "assault victims should defend themselves better" stuff, not the "gee, if I were younger I'd like to meet you" stuff.

I can see getting worked up over that, but it starts with Price getting hit on like that incident has an equal value to Price.

Quote from: jeff37923;1002845No, I don't think that he has.

See, the point was made that the act of even politely asking a woman out was offensive, which does not work very well in the Real World and seems to be an overreaction.

Thank god for that, or else we would have all been behind bars.

Quote from: Dumarest;1002848As I said above, I thought the part people were worked up over was the "assault victims should defend themselves better" stuff, not the "gee, if I were younger I'd like to meet you" stuff.

Is there any proof of the "assault victims should defend themselves better" stuff?  Wayback machine or whatever, since it was deleted by Price.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1002864Is there any proof of the "assault victims should defend themselves better" stuff?  Wayback machine or whatever, since it was deleted by Price.

No idea, and I never said it was true, I just said my understanding is that is what people seem to be in a tizzy over.

I recall Kask's DF threads from back in the day.  I found his conceited, self-important tone insufferable, especially when he mocked Arneson, someone who's contributions were far greater.  Kask clearly had a chip on his shoulder and a host of insecurities that could only be satisfied by seeking adulation on a gaming forum.  When said adulation wasn't rich and frequent enough, and when some people disagreed with him he threw his toys out of the cot.  All this to the guy who is at best a footnote to the hobby.

I can't remember who said it but the best summary of Kask I read something like "I'd never heard about Tim Kask until he came on this forum to tell us about Tim Kask."

It seems to be symptomatic of a particular section of the old crowd which most certainly includes both Mentzer and Gronan.  D&D was this big thing and they were there at the time but were never central to the action.  We're meant to respect them because 'they were there, man' and if someone isn't appropriately respectful they lose their shit.

Gronan's early post in this thread is a classic.  He wouldn't consult on D&D for $200/hour, when no-one, ever, offered so much as $10/hour.  

What really disappoints me is the number of fanboys who do literally tongue their peeholes and give them the adulation they crave.

Quote from: Dumarest;1002866No idea, and I never said it was true, I just said my understanding is that is what people seem to be in a tizzy over.

Yup, I just spent the better part of the afternoon/evening posting on a thread over on G+ about all the Frank/Bill Webb/Zak offenses, and have been pretty much shouted down the entire way, when all I asked for was justice for victim (if there is one), and due process for the accused.

Everyone there said it was ok that there was no formal adjudication process for actually determining guilt/innocence of the accused, not providing evidence on behalf of the victims (except for Bill Webb at PaizoCon, he probably did get drunk and stupid over there one night and had to be asked to stay away from a young lady, by one of the paizo freelancers who spoke firsthand of this stupidity), that happened last JULY mind you, but everyone just dogpiled these three guys in a kind of a hysterical witch hunt this weekend, and they are just not letting up.

I can't be a part and party to that, and have been accused of not having empathy for the "victims" even though none of the victims seemed to have went through the normal channels i.e. CON Staff where the incidents occurred, and in Zaks case no one brought up any relevant details of any offenses online that he has committed anytime recently (like in the last 30 days or so), though I had heard about his disputes with some folks right after GenCon, so... not sure if the diatribe against him about that time is due to envy over his Enny wins, or if he pushed some folks too far while trolling them, one of his entertainment pastimes.

In any event, not very happy all the kids on the internet are not getting along, adn am withdrawing from the online rancorousness as all of that has no place in my hobby. I just wanna have fun playing RPG games with folks, why all the vile and hate spewing back and forth?!!

Quote from: GameDaddy;1002886I just wanna have fun playing RPG games with folks, why all the vile and hate spewing back and forth?!!

You'd have to ask the SJWs about that one.....

Quote from: Fiasco;1002881I can't remember who said it but the best summary of Kask I read something like "I'd never heard about Tim Kask until he came on this forum to tell us about Tim Kask."

It seems to be symptomatic of a particular section of the old crowd which most certainly includes both Mentzer and Gronan.  D&D was this big thing and they were there at the time but were never central to the action.

I'd say Mentzer, unlike Kask & Monard, definitely was 'central to the action' with Red Box Basic & the BECMI line. It popularised D&D worldwide, so maybe he's more important to D&D outside the USA. But his contribution was definitely important. Personally I'd put him just behind Gygax & Arneson. You could argue eg Moldvay was more important to '80s D&D, but Mentzer was definitely important IMO.

Quote from: sureshot;1002823What was once acceptable is no longer as such. Nowadays asking a random women out on a date espceially a total stranger can get one in trouble. Frank was asking way too familiar with Jessica imo. You get to know a person first. Find out their boundaries on what they will or will not allow. More importantly find out if their is a mutual interest on dating. Not "I like your work and BTW your super hot and if I was younger I would totally date you" to someone one barely knows. Their a fine line between outgoing and being creepy. If I ask someone for a date I make sure to either know the person. Or have that person referred to by a friend. If it's a blind date those have their own rules. Actions have consequences, people are responsible for their own actions and claiming it's been done before is a poorly disguised dodge to try and not take responsiblity for one actions as far as I'm concerned.

I was not out to see Frank blacklisted but fuck, FUCK he really did not do himself any favors. Especially given how many rpg companies are not tolerant of that kind of behavior now. Those that are more tolerant won't probably have anything to do with him for fear of losing sales.

People ask strangers out all the time. It's called Tinder or going to a bar. What Frank said was creepy but not sexual assault or anything beyond. It's something stupid and weird but not worth the witch hunt. And him saying sexual assault victims should call the police, used to be common sense back when sexual assault actually meant sexual assault.

Quote from: jeff37923;1002889You'd have to ask the SJWs about that one.....

Yes. Had a dream last night, In that dream a bunch of undead were trying to sleep with me. They weren't succeeding of course, but they were getting close enough so that their stench was getting all over me and making me reek. As soon as I woke up this morning I knew it was a metaphor for everything that was happening and that I need to get away from the truly toxic people in the gaming Industry that has invaded my G+ space. It's too bad they are running about and militantly being loud, aggressive, and making (...more or less) unsubstantiated allegations. What I witnessed there this last weekend was a highly coordinated, and broad and fuzzy attack on highly successful independent game publishers including Zak, Bill Webb, Frank Mentzer, as well as Paizo Publishing (Getting called on the mat for improperly adjudicating a harrassment charge during PaizoCon last year.)

The problem is, the mob with the pitchforks have no real clue how the issues were really handled, and they are simply speculating online in an inflammatory manner. They are an integral part of the problem, not part of the solution. They in fact, provided no solution, or even proposed a solution, even though I specifically requested one from them for this perceived problem they are crying about.

One final note here, I've seen firsthand what happens when a mob with pitchforks goes berserk. I was in L.A. in 92 working for LA County Internal Services Division (electronics & communications). When the mob went berserk in the name of justice, mind you, they ended up torching four hundred square miles of Los Angeles, and at the peak, they were setting over four thousand fires a day. Over ten thousand businesses were damaged, destroyed, or looted. There were so many fires it was pitch black as midnight at high noon. I got to see such awesome stuff as a thousand fire trucks in one place at one time as fire companies from six adjacent states rallied to help their fellow firemen who were getting shot down in the streets like dogs. I drove on an eight line freeway the I-5, and for a week was in fact the only car on the freeway for as far as I could see as I was driving to work in the morning and returning in the evening. That was a surreal experience, and of course driving into the darkness where the fires were being set. In the end, two full divisions over 20,000 soldiers of the California National Guard were deployed as well as the Marine Expeditionary Force from Camp Pendleton who were ordered to move into L.A. to quell the riot. 57 people ended up dying, some from mob beatings, some being shot at checkpoints that the military had setup during the week long dusk-to-dawn curfew that was put into effect. I was not actually subject to that curfew, because my job at the time was to ensure that L.A. County radio and emergency broadcast communications remained intact, so had a unique view of the entire event.

None of this rioting actually helped improve justice, the justice system, or racial relations, and in fact hurt all three, as well countless folks who had not been involved in any way, shape, or form, who no longer had access to food and other consumables because their corner grocery had been burnt to the ground. They got to suffer in the name of justice.

I'll be bowing out of this fight, and leaving gaming Antifa to continue setting fires in the community with no regard for the consequences of their actions.

Tinder is one thing. Writing highly inappropriate stuff like Frank did to Jessica is another. That kind of stuff gets you blocked, ignored or even trouble wit Tinder, Plenty of Fish or any other similar dating sites. It's one thing to say something creepy. It's another to refuse to stop and double down when asked to stop. If the person one is talking too is clearly uncomfortable which Jessica was one STOPs doing it imo. Frank being stupid is a excuse. He fucked up and and made his situation worse. If he had walked away once he was told to stop by Jessica he might be seen as creepy. Instead he doubled down and ruined his own career. With the Harvey Weinstein scnadal still fresh in every one minds. it was a truly idiotic thing to do.

As for dating if you think going up to a one and going "hey baby I like your work and think your gorgeous too bad I'm too old" or any similarly worded along those lines are remotely appropriate let alone acceptable. Your either very cluesless about dating or have not actively dated since the 1970s or 1980s. Now that will get you a swift kick to the happy sacks, a drink thrown in your face, the police possibly called on you or all of that. Maybe it's because people are too sensitive or maybe some are tired of such pick-up lines. I'm began dating again awhile back and approached a few friends both male and female.  To get some advice and the above pick-up lines are a big no-no. Once can stupidly keep tossing out such cheesy pickup lines if one wants to remain single. Right now unfortunately for Frank it's a really bad thing to be very forward perhaps too forward when speaking to the opposite sex. Now one has to be careful what one says. I don't particularily like it yet that's the new reality. Adapt or be shunned and possibly lose one job.

I will say this on the subject. I am terrified very terrified at how some not only believe what a woman tells them at face value. How their is a willingness to toss the person in jail or worse without any due legal process. If it was left to some they would act like rabid dogs ruining everyone and possibly killing everyone with vigilante justice. When one tries to even hint if someone like Frank should receive due process and/or not accept every claim at face value. They would turn their mob justice on you. While also making you feel like your a criminal. Rpg.net has a similar thread and fuck it's scary reading because not only is it a massive echo chamber and circle jerk. It's like your the enemy if you don't agree 10000% with their position.

After being banned from Paizo a few months back it was nice to see them hoisted by is own petard. Their is a big SJW movement on their boards yet when a similar thread like this was started on their own forum. nor only where the usual SJWs conspicuously absent they locked their own thread and at first came off as looking bad due to the not being very sympathetic to what happened to Jessica. While seeming to brush off what a drunken Bill Webb behavior at a gaming con. Locking the  thread and only making a statement after it looked like some in the hobby would boycott them. I would be lying if I said that did not please me. Did they think no one would notice.

Quote from: sureshot;1002906Tinder is one thing. Writing highly inappropriate stuff like Frank did to Jessica is another. That kind of stuff gets you blocked, ignored or even trouble wit Tinder, Plenty of Fish or any other similar dating sites. It's one thing to say something creepy. It's another to refuse to stop and double down when asked to stop. If the person one is talking too is clearly uncomfortable which Jessica was one STOPs doing it imo. Frank being stupid is a excuse. He fucked up and and made his situation worse. If he had walked away once he was told to stop by Jessica he might be seen as creepy. Instead he doubled down and ruined his own career. With the Harvey Weinstein scnadal still fresh in every one minds. it was a truly idiotic thing to do.

As for dating if you think going up to a one and going "hey baby I like your work and think your gorgeous too bad I'm too old" or any similarly worded along those lines are remotely appropriate let alone acceptable. Your either very cluesless about dating or have not actively dated since the 1970s or 1980s. Now that will get you a swift kick to the happy sacks, a drink thrown in your face, the police possibly called on you or all of that. Maybe it's because people are too sensitive or maybe some are tired of such pick-up lines. I'm began dating again awhile back and approached a few friends both male and female.  To get some advice and the above pick-up lines are a big no-no. Once can stupidly keep tossing out such cheesy pickup lines if one wants to remain single. Right now unfortunately for Frank it's a really bad thing to be very forward perhaps too forward when speaking to the opposite sex. Now one has to be careful what one says. I don't particularily like it yet that's the new reality. Adapt or be shunned and possibly lose one job.

I will say this on the subject. I am terrified very terrified at how some not only believe what a woman tells them at face value. How their is a willingness to toss the person in jail or worse without any due legal process. If it was left to some they would act like rabid dogs ruining everyone and possibly killing everyone with vigilante justice. When one tries to even hint if someone like Frank should receive due process and/or not accept every claim at face value. They would turn their mob justice on you. While also making you feel like your a criminal. Rpg.net has a similar thread and fuck it's scary reading because not only is it a massive echo chamber and circle jerk. It's like your the enemy if you don't agree 10000% with their position.

After being banned from Paizo a few months back it was nice to see them hoisted by is own petard. Their is a big SJW movement on their boards yet when a similar thread like this was started on their own forum. nor only where the usual SJWs conspicuously absent they locked their own thread and at first came off as looking bad due to the not being very sympathetic to what happened to Jessica. While seeming to brush off what a drunken Bill Webb behavior at a gaming con. Locking the  thread and only making a statement after it looked like some in the hobby would boycott them. I would be lying if I said that did not please me. Did they think no one would notice.

I'm not familiar with the Bill Webb story at all. My hobby is playing games and not being in the "gaming community" ;)

With Frank Mentzer, again what he said wasn't appropriate or smart. And when he kept going (based on the screenshot that was posted online) I just don't understand the need for the social media crew to destroy him. They are like Mao's Red Guard.

He did something stupid. Say he did something stupid. Ask for him to apologize. Accept it or not. But it doesn't mean he's a terrible person or that he should be banned from producing games anymore. He doesn't have a history of doing anything. He didn't commit violence towards anyone. The social media mob just wants blood until they can move on to the next outrage.

Quote from: Ulairi;1002909I'm not familiar with the Bill Webb story at all. My hobby is playing games and not being in the "gaming community" ;)

https://mobile.twitter.com/sphynxian/status/882440112646344708?lang=en

Quote from: Ulairi;1002909With Frank Mentzer, again what he said wasn't appropriate or smart. And when he kept going (based on the screenshot that was posted online) I just don't understand the need for the social media crew to destroy him. They are like Mao's Red Guard.

I think and still think his mistake was doubling down on his behavior imo. The smart thing would have been to apologize and I think it would have impacted his career less imo.

Quote from: Ulairi;1002909He did something stupid. Say he did something stupid. Ask for him to apologize. Accept it or not. But it doesn't mean he's a terrible person or that he should be banned from producing games anymore. He doesn't have a history of doing anything. He didn't commit violence towards anyone. The social media mob just wants blood until they can move on to the next outrage.

This day and age with companies bending over backwards to accomodate SJWs and the outrage brigade he really had no choice but to apologize. Whether he wanted to or not. I knew as soon as he refused to even admit to making a mistake he would be blacklisted. Given how it's a very touchy subject and will remain one for years to come if one wants to remain in the rpg industry. Or any other jobs outside of it one has to be careful what one says or does. It's scary how much of a witchhunt and willing one it can be.

I still don't think the SJW or even the anti-SJW mob have any power offline and in the marketplace. It's why so many progressives or SJW when you pull the thread it comes back to they really don't like market economies because they, personally, have no power in the marketplace and they want the power. All of this naval gazing only happens on social media platforms and rarely do I hear about it at conventions or game shops and when I do it's like "oh yea....I heard about that" not that they actually care. For a sizeable subset of the population their hobby is being in these online communities.

Frank should have apologized because it was the right thing to do. He said something and the person he said it to didn't take it in the way which me meant to say it. He should still apologize because that's the polite and right thing to do.

When it came to him posting on her FB posts something I learned last year was that people often post things to FB not to have a discussion or "debate" but to have their beliefs reinforced. Barbara Blackburn and I used to be friends on FB. She posts a lot of stuff from We are the 99%, Occupy Democrats, and other far-left outfits. The stuff she posts were those silly image macros and I would post about how the thing was silly, wrong, dishonest, whatever and I was never rude to her. But, in her mind, she didn't want disagreement. She wanted her belief system to be reinforced. When I posted something counter-to-that it came off because she didn't want to think critically about what she's posting. Which is fair. Sometimes people want to be partisan and when someone is in that mood if we aren't going to nod in agreement the best thing we can do is just to ignore it.

I've now gotten to the point where I ask somebody on social media did they post this to be agreed with or to start a discussion.

Frank posting on that girls wall when she didn't want a discussion wasn't smart. He didn't threaten her or anything like has been going around. I do find it odd that so many folks are jumping over themselves to appease someone who has never actually contributed to the hobby.

Quote from: S'mon;1002891I'd say Mentzer, unlike Kask & Monard, definitely was 'central to the action' with Red Box Basic & the BECMI line. It popularised D&D worldwide, so maybe he's more important to D&D outside the USA. But his contribution was definitely important. Personally I'd put him just behind Gygax & Arneson. You could argue eg Moldvay was more important to '80s D&D, but Mentzer was definitely important IMO.

Once we start trying to adjudicate who of the people at TSR were 'important,' we're trying to impute with knowledge that we do not have, supplemented with accounts from others we should not trust. If we can weather the Buck Rogers thread acknowledging that we really don't know how much of Lorraine Williams' reputation is justified because we don't have any primary documentation, then we can say that we don't know if Mentzer is a huge mover and shaker who is responsible for BECMI's profound impact (and of course argue whether it had any) or if he was just a guy who put some icing on the cake Moldvay and Gygax had already baked. We just plain don't know (and if we say we do, we had better back it up).

Quote from: Fiasco;1002881I recall Kask's DF threads from back in the day.  I found his conceited, self-important tone insufferable, especially when he mocked Arneson, someone who's contributions were far greater.  Kask clearly had a chip on his shoulder and a host of insecurities that could only be satisfied by seeking adulation on a gaming forum.  When said adulation wasn't rich and frequent enough, and when some people disagreed with him he threw his toys out of the cot.  All this to the guy who is at best a footnote to the hobby.

Honestly, virtually every person I've met from the gaming industry has, at least at some point, been absolutely insufferable online. Kask clearly wants to control the narrative on who was the 'real important guy' of Gygax vs. Arneson and I treat that as just as much biased information as everything else I just decried. But I don't consider myself to really know Kask for Kask either.

QuoteIt seems to be symptomatic of a particular section of the old crowd which most certainly includes both Mentzer and Gronan.  D&D was this big thing and they were there at the time but were never central to the action.  We're meant to respect them because 'they were there, man' and if someone isn't appropriately respectful they lose their shit.

Gronan's early post in this thread is a classic.  He wouldn't consult on D&D for $200/hour, when no-one, ever, offered so much as $10/hour.  

What really disappoints me is the number of fanboys who do literally tongue their peeholes and give them the adulation they crave.

Mostly I see Gronan as protective of Gary and Dave. Other than making sure we know he was instrumental in the creation of gelatinous cubes and the church of Crom (and apologizing for variable weapon damage), has he routinely tried to make himself out to be a big deal? You'd think he'd lose the tongue-my-peephole-isms and '[everyone else] can't shit unassisted' crotchety old man routine if he was all about promoting himself.

Nobody at TSR was important. Only the games they made have any importance to me. I'll give Gygax and Arneson their due for ushering RPGs into the world and giving me many hours of fun.

Quote from: sureshot;1002906Rpg.net has a similar thread and fuck it's scary reading because not only is it a massive echo chamber and circle jerk. It's like your the enemy if you don't agree 10000% with their position.

That's exactly what happens when you have a totalitarian mindset. In Stalin's Russia if you didn't agree you where taken care of with a bullet in the head. In rpgnet they insta ban you, no questions asked, and please note that both where supposedly fighting for "the good of minorities". That was the marketing trick they used. The same that sjw use today.

In the sexual harassment thread you mention, according to one of the rpg.net members one of the mods there is actually a child rapist?!

Anyway back to game discussions the reason I joined the site in the first place.

Quote from: sureshot;1002906Tinder is one thing. Writing highly inappropriate stuff like Frank did to Jessica is another.

All I've seen are his original 3 messages that basically amounted to "lol ur cute want to talk?"

I didn't see any demands for nudes, offers of career advancement in exchange for sex, threats, etc.

QuoteAs for dating if you think going up to a one and going "hey baby I like your work and think your gorgeous too bad I'm too old" or any similarly worded along those lines are remotely appropriate let alone acceptable. Your either very cluesless about dating or have not actively dated since the 1970s or 1980s. Now that will get you a swift kick to the happy sacks, a drink thrown in your face, the police possibly called on you or all of that.

The idea that a lame pick-up line is justification for assault and possibly being arrested and charged with a crime is terrifying.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1002930All I've seen are his original 3 messages that basically amounted to "lol ur cute want to talk?"

I didn't see any demands for nudes, offers of career advancement in exchange for sex, threats, etc.



The idea that a lame pick-up line is justification for assault and possibly being arrested and charged with a crime is terrifying.

Yep, which is why I assumed the issue was the allegations that he was insensitive to assault victims. Are they actually mad about an awkward compliment from an old guy over the Internet?

Big Purple is going to single-handedly destroy all rpgs companies in that stupid thread of theirs. When someone is threatened to be banned there for wanting to know both sides the game is over.

Quote from: bat;1002943Big Purple is going to single-handedly destroy all rpgs companies in that stupid thread of theirs. When someone is threatened to be banned there for wanting to know both sides the game is over.

Nah, RPG companies (such as exist, are there maybe three that aren't  mom-and-pop shops?) have got nothing to do with most of this nonsense and most of this has no effect on anyone outside a Google group and a Twitter feed. I'm sorry I even heard about it.

Yeah. Wasn't the last internet blow up the one that was going to ruin tabletop roleplaying games forever and ever, no coming back, stick a fork in 'em, they're done? Anyone remember what that one was about?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1002686Moving away from this specifically, to a more general case.

Speaking as somebody who's now 62... it's a fucking hell of a shock to wake up one morning and realize you're not the apex predator any more.  This is exacerbated by our society's idolization of youth, which, ironically, the Baby Boomers started.  And there's really no established way of dealing with it.  The "wise ancient sage" image is no longer part of our cultural heritage.

It's been especially blatant when I spend any time at church events with a significant number of Dakota/Lakota/Nakota people; they treat their eldest members with the greatest of respect.

So, I'd summarize as "I used to be large and in charge and I'm not ready to be thrown on the dung heap, dammit!"

But that's just one fat old white guy's personal opinion, not worth the electrons it's written on.

A Generation or Three ago us white folk treated our elders with respect as well. I suspect the same fate will befall the Lakota elders in a a few more generations. We're just a few gen ahead of most other cultures on that trend.

Quote from: Gwarh;1002958A Generation or Three ago us white folk treated our elders with respect as well. I suspect the same fate will befall the Lakota elders in a a few more generations. We're just a few gen ahead of most other cultures on that trend.

Latinos are not far behind you. :o

Guys if you want to talk about stuff relevant to Empyrea go ahead, but keep the political stuff out of the main forum please.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1002961Guys if you want to talk about stuff relevant to Empyrea go ahead, but keep the political stuff out of the main forum please.

Should probably move the topic as Frank Mentzer/Empyrea has become politicized.

As with any of these industry posts, a certain amount of rumor and discussion is going to occur. We are generally pretty flexible on that point. But this is rapidly becoming about peripheral political topics. If you can't restrain yourself from talking about that in thread, then post elsewhere. The main forum is for talking about RPGs and for industry discussion. Not for general political discussions.

Quote from: sureshot;1002906After being banned from Paizo a few months back it was nice to see them hoisted by is own petard.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uokq?I-am-very-disturbed-to-hear-the-allegations

The Revolution always eats its own.

Yeah, after the harm they've done it's hard not to feel some schadenfreude as the Red Guards come for them too, now. This is why smart publishers (& sites) maintain a strict 'no politics' rule. Once you start down the slippery slope, you end up in the maw of the Sarlacc.

Edit: I think this thread should be moved over to Pundit's Forum. With the Kickstarter dead there's only politics left to discuss.

Quote from: S'mon;1002977http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uokq?I-am-very-disturbed-to-hear-the-allegations

The Revolution always eats its own.

#METOO comes to the Paizo forums it seems.

Quote from: Gwarh;1002980#METOO comes to the Paizo forums it seems.

Frog God offers apology:
http://www.talesofthefroggod.com/forum/response-frog-god-games-events-social-media

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1002969As with any of these industry posts, a certain amount of rumor and discussion is going to occur. We are generally pretty flexible on that point. But this is rapidly becoming about peripheral political topics. If you can't restrain yourself from talking about that in thread, then post elsewhere. The main forum is for talking about RPGs and for industry discussion. Not for general political discussions.

I sympathise, but if you don't want political discussion, then stop giving free passes to instigators. There's some outrageous claims being made in this thread  which are basically being allowed to stand because of "no politics". Show some principle.

Quote from: John Scott;1002922That's exactly what happens when you have a totalitarian mindset. In Stalin's Russia if you didn't agree you where taken care of with a bullet in the head. In rpgnet they insta ban you, no questions asked, and please note that both where supposedly fighting for "the good of minorities". That was the marketing trick they used. The same that sjw use today.

In the sexual harassment thread you mention, according to one of the rpg.net members one of the mods there is actually a child rapist?!

Anyway back to game discussions the reason I joined the site in the first place.

Yep, I got thread banned by a mod who 5 hours later was accused of rape. Good times.

IMO the Tao of D&D nailed it with his call on Mentzer and his ilk:

"Mentzer just happens to be one of these that is still alive: but looking at his recent failed attempt at a kickstarter, it is clear it was just going to be more of the same, more derivative re-tellings of two-dimensional settings and stories, plastered with the same artwork available everywhere on Google.  In a computer age, when bookstores are dying and the tablet rules, it was Mentzer's idea to build his new Empyrea kickstarter and really well made 200-page tomes fashioned of good, high quality paper.

These were not bright guys.  They were lucky guys.  And in a way, they were very unlucky guys, depending on one's perspective and what they might have done if they had not sold their souls to stay in the game, whatever the cost.  These are not guys who went to the cons thinking of how they were building their careers towards a greater future.  These were guys going to the cons because they had nothing else.  The adulation they got from the budgies (fans with bobbling, piercing, darting eyes) was the only thing that made these guys feel alive.

Some, like Mentzer, let it convince them that they were somehow important to the industry; that their word could make or break the careers of other people ~ and they made that threat to hundreds of people, in the hubris of feeling self-righteous.  It was the budgies that made them feel that way; who tricked them, with their adoration, into feeling that they deserved that adoration ... but in fact, most of these guys are just lazy, dull, repulsive old men, sitting on cheap chairs and pretending they are thrones.

Quote from: Fiasco;1003025Some, like Mentzer, let it convince them that they were somehow important to the industry; that their word could make or break the careers of other people...

Which is true, and ironic, since Jessica Price has enormous power in the RPG industry - she can stretch forth her hand and destroy pretty much any life she chooses - and Frank Mentzer has none.

Quote from: S'mon;1003032Which is true, and ironic, since Jessica Price has enormous power in the RPG industry - she can stretch forth her hand and destroy pretty much any life she chooses - and Frank Mentzer has none.

I never heard of her before this debacle.  What RPG did she write?

Quote from: Dumarest;1003034I never heard of her before this debacle.  What RPG did she write?

She doesn't need to write RPGs.

Until recently she was a Paizo employee for quite a few years. I believe she contributed to a setting book on Qadira (a country in Paizo's in-house setting) but mostly she was known as the most active and committed SJW on their forums.

Quote from: S'mon;1003040She doesn't need to write RPGs.

Until recently she was a Paizo employee for quite a few years. I believe she contributed to a setting book on Qadira (a country in Paizo's in-house setting) but mostly she was known as the most active and committed SJW on their forums.

Does she have a real job? Not kidding, I'm curious why she is apparently famous.

Quote from: Dumarest;1003034I never heard of her before this debacle.  What RPG did she write?

She was a project manager at Paizo for several years, and worked on a number of Pathfinder books, including Qadira, Jewel of the East and contributions to several other books.

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Jessica_Price

Closing this thread. It is getting too political for the main forum.