The main point for me was the TSR alumni, I go away for a few years and they were all chased off...hence no point to the site other than...

"It was so much better then :rolleyes:"

DF was pretty nice 15-10 years ago. Around 2008 it started going to the dogs. But, I noticed a lot of forums I used to frequent started to suck around 2008.

Quote from: Ulairi;993440DF was pretty nice 15-10 years ago. Around 2008 it started going to the dogs. But, I noticed a lot of forums I used to frequent started to suck around 2008.

That's because social media started taking over, sadly.  Especially since 2012.

Quote from: Celestial;993459That's because social media started taking over, sadly.  Especially since 2012.

This

I don't have much to add. I don't think my opinion is going to sway anyone on any of the major issues like who was 'in the right' or whether DF or KKA have any self reflection to take or whether EotB was somehow doing anything noble by broadly publishing a private conversation. The only thing I have to say would be towards Frank, who is the one person involved clearly not here. Either way, if he was, I would say this--

I think, if there's any lessons to take away from this, it's that if you are being provoked by what you feel is a troll or agitator, the correct course of action is never to angrily engage. You might think you will 'put them in their place,' or 'get one up on them,' or shame them for their trollish behavior or whatever. And that never ever ever works out for you in the end.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;993478I think, if there's any lessons to take away from this, it's that if you are being provoked by what you feel is a troll or agitator, the correct course of action is never to angrily engage.

Or at least don't put it in a document that can be subpoenaed!

Quote from: Willie the Duck;993478I think, if there's any lessons to take away from this, it's that if you are being provoked by what you feel is a troll or agitator, the correct course of action is never to angrily engage. You might think you will 'put them in their place,' or 'get one up on them,' or shame them for their trollish behavior or whatever. And that never ever ever works out for you in the end.

Probably better yet is just never to engage at all if you can restrain yourself.

Quote from: Dumarest;993504Probably better yet is just never to engage at all if you can restrain yourself.

Pretty much what I meant, yeah. IMO, Frank should have responded with, "given our past altercations, EOTB, I think we should just stay out of each others' way." Or just plain not answer at all.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;993497Or at least don't put it in a document that can be subpoenaed!

Do you honestly think that any of this is going anywhere other than hurt feelings and possibly reputations tarnished amongst a very small pool of people? Let's not give ourselves too much credit for being influential.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;993261No, the main focus on DF is TSR D&D, including everything up through 2e. There are separate forums for discussing the various editions.

If you're only interested in 1e, then sticking to DF's 1e forum is a good way to handle that. I spend most of my time at DF in the 1e and General forums. There's an original D&D subforum, too, but it's not very active.

And the OD&D forums are mostly the people from ODD74 having the same discussions, alas.

Quote from: Dumarest;993504Probably better yet is just never to engage at all if you can restrain yourself.

Question. How does one restrain oneself if they are not the original author of the message, or the post? Inquiring minds want to know.

Quote from: GameDaddy;993682Question. How does one restrain oneself if they are not the original author of the message, or the post? Inquiring minds want to know.

The restraint would have been ignoring EOTB and not getting into all that back and forth as it has no good outcomes either way. He was never going to change his critics' minds; it's essentially a trap and they want you to respond because it acknowledges them.

Quote from: Dumarest;993724The restraint would have been ignoring EOTB and not getting into all that back and forth as it has no good outcomes either way. He was never going to change his critics' minds; it's essentially a trap and they want you to respond because it acknowledges them.

Especially when EOTB and other AA (Alehouse Assholes -please no tedious concern-trolling that I'm showing disrespect to Alcoholics Anonymous) are backed up by mods on the site, who protect their own. Any mockery or dismissal of the K&K Klan will incur bans, locks and so on. So while I think it was stupid to threaten them, then rage-quit, it makes a kind of warped sense: If the mods on the site are going to screw you over for arguing with their comrades (especially if they're getting owned) you might as well flame the fuck out of them.

Quote from: EOTB;992992I released the PM knowing it would make a bunch of people angry.  Since this thread focused on what I did for the last few pages, I'll come here to let people tell me directly, if they care, their opinion.  And then it can go back to its intended purpose.  I'm not going to get into a running debate on the subject, but I'll take whatever public beating people want to dish out while they know I can see it.

I have no interest in humiliating you. The way so many others have done it on DF and elsewhere, it would be gratuitous. Simply put, some people would rather have someone come right out and call them idiots or assholes or whatever than the kind of monotonous, passive-aggressive shit you enjoy -especially with mods on your side. Mentzer blew his stack when a simple "Ah, go fuck yourself" would have been better.

QuoteAlso mostly deserved.  I would asterisk one portion as described below.

Look, when I said this entire incident caused some reflection on my part, I meant it.  I don't excuse myself; I don't excuse my counterpart in this affair.  I've wasted a lot of time on RPG forums debating people about RPGs.  And it's all pretty pointless, really.  For all that people decry echo chambers, I'm now of the opinion that echo chambers are probably the only productive way to discuss them.

There is a very "productive" way to discuss RPGs or any other subject: being honest, open-minded to the possibility you might be wrong even if (Gasp!) you end up changing your mind, and not running for the mods like a whiny little bitch when you get owned.

I've had previous arguments with Mentzer myself, where he conveniently forgets things he wrote/edited in the past. I am told he has written some derogatory things about me. But here's the difference: I don't interact with him. Yes, it was funny watching him go into "Do you know who the fuck I am?" mode, but even then he only came off as the third or fourth biggest douche in the whole shitstorm.

Quote from: Elfdart;993734

Quote from: DumarestThe restraint would have been ignoring EOTB and not getting into all that back and forth as it has no good outcomes either way. He was never going to change his critics' minds; it's essentially a trap and they want you to respond because it acknowledges them.

Especially when EOTB and ...    

The thing is, the restraint Dumarest is talking about entails restrain-ing oneself. That means taking the high road when what you really want to do is get in the last word. It's not really being more adult or more mature, it just plain doesn't work if you try and do both.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;993736The thing is, the restraint Dumarest is talking about entails restrain-ing oneself. That means taking the high road when what you really want to do is get in the last word. It's not really being more adult or more mature, it just plain doesn't work if you try and do both.

It's hard to do, particularly online where you are anonymous, you may be alone with no one to vent to, and  you can hit "send" or "post" immediately and then have second thoughts. There are more than a few posts and e-mails and things I've thought better of...after the fact!

One thing I just noticed is that it appears Dragonsfoot has removed all of Frank Mentzer's Q&A threads, I believe he had two threads which go back several years.