WHAT .... THE ....FUCK??

If I didn't already find the Forge type games strange this whole AP report and example would clinch my dislike (hate?) of them.


 There is mature roleplaying....and then there is doing sick stuff just to see what you get away with.

Thats just fucked up . Both the AP incident and the game and mindset that encourages it.


- Ed C.

Quote from: WerekoalaTerrible things happen in really crappy movies too. dosn't make 'em good movies.

One other problem with the Movie defense is that all it really does is move the debate without changing it. It's the old playground defense of "But Billy did it first". One would hope that adults would leave that behind.

This game sounds vile.

My game actually does reward certain behaviour through game mechanics -- but I chose to make a heroic fantasy game instead.

Quote from: StuartThis game sounds vile.

My game actually does reward certain behaviour through game mechanics -- but I chose to make a heroic fantasy game instead.

Here fucking here!

Quote from: gleichmanOne other problem with the Movie defense is that all it really does is move the debate without changing it. It's the old playground defense of "But Billy did it first". One would hope that adults would leave that behind.

The other thing they're missing is that Billy did it first for a damn good reason (if we're talking about the "high art" type of movie they claim to emulate here).  With this game, from what I've read on that thread...not so much beyond getting more dice or whatever.

Quote from: KenHRThe other thing they're missing is that Billy did it first for a damn good reason (if we're talking about the "high art" type of movie they claim to emulate here).  With this game, from what I've read on that thread...not so much beyond getting more dice or whatever.

That's sort of the core concept of Forge theory isn't it? It claims that people are unable to develop story unless they get more dice, so their games give more dice.

Story by bribe instead of story by reason. Appears akin to the monkey theory of novel writing.

Too true.  I wonder how many of the Forge folks have ever sat down and tried to write an honest-to-goodness literary story.  Something that does everything their games claim to do: feature plot, theme, character development, explorations of things we're often uncomfortable exploring.  Maybe if more of them did, they'd realize how backwards their approach to narrative was on so many levels.

Bah, anyway, I've wasted too much time reading that trainwreck of a thread.  Back to working on my great big honkin' dungeon...

I think I need a good Silkwood shower after that read.

Quote from: VBWyrdeWhile I might agree that walking away is reasonable in this case on the grounds that harping on it is like throwing fuel on the fire... I do not agree at all with your assertion that it's only a game and therefore it doesnt matter.

I am sorry if I came off as implying that it doesn't matter at all, but I was trying to counter the implication that it was some high moral duty to engage in what would likely be yet another pointless Internet squabble.

You do make a very good point about this being perhaps a reflection of the  coarsening of our culture, and I agree that it should be condemned as such.  I just believe that elevating it to a moral crusade on the Internet is counter-productive as it may just bring in the "publicity at any cost" brigade and give them the attention that they crave.  

Then again, I am much more of an "act locally" sort of person, so this is my own personal bias showing.

Quote from: VBWyrdeCurrently our culture appears to have lost track of what Good Stories actually mean.   That's a pity.  We could use some Good Stories about now.  Well, I know I could, anyway.

On that we fully agree.  I could use some of those myself.


TGA

I just can't stop laughing at the fact that the Forge swine are so enamored with Vince, that they can't allow themselves to see that Poison'd is a close cousin of FATAL.

If you took Poison'd, removed Vince's name, and replaced it with Pundit's, these exact same people defending the game now would be raising all kinds of hell about it, guarenteed.

It's like a bad Andy Warhol joke.  It's pretty clear that Baker is just trying to see how bad of a game he can put out and get these same idiots to buy it just because they think it will make them "cool".

Quote from: StuartMy game actually does reward certain behaviour through game mechanics -- but I chose to make a heroic fantasy game instead.

You know, it wouldn't be difficult at all to create a Nobilis character who gains power through atrocities, no more difficult than creating a perfect saint in fact, and the only thing stopping a player from choosing such a PC is the good judgment of the rest of the group. It would require a customized Code, though, since all the great factions (even Hell and the Dark) have their own reasons for condemning behaviour like killing folks and raping their corpses, and harming innocents would also soon bring the Wild Hunt to the culprit's doorstep. Still, it would render the character more powerful, at least temporarily. It's an amoral universe.

Is this post by GrimGent for real?

Allow me to suggest Wushu instead.

Quote from: KenHRToo true.  I wonder how many of the Forge folks have ever sat down and tried to write an honest-to-goodness literary story.  Something that does everything their games claim to do: feature plot, theme, character development, explorations of things we're often uncomfortable exploring.  Maybe if more of them did, they'd realize how backwards their approach to narrative was on so many levels.

Mechanics have dick-all to do with story or narravite. I could sit down with my friends and we could tell an interactive story without a single mechanic, without dice, without anything except taking turns to add to the story (okay, that's a rule/mechanic, but its the most basic one in human history). Or we could have a nicly plotted out story within a game of D&D, or GURPS, and have many times in the past. Hell, my dungeon I threw together last weekend has a story behind it, that will be uncovered as they move through it an uncover pieces *if they WANT to learn the story*. Or they can just hack 'n slash it. Fine with me.

Honestly, is there ANY way to make a plotted narrative a requirement of a ruleset? If most players are like MY players, they'd fight that with every fiber of their being.

Quote from: KenHRToo true.  I wonder how many of the Forge folks have ever sat down and tried to write an honest-to-goodness literary story.  Something that does everything their games claim to do: feature plot, theme, character development, explorations of things we're often uncomfortable exploring.  Maybe if more of them did, they'd realize how backwards their approach to narrative was on so many levels.

You raise a good question.

I know that in my case that rpgs are a bit of wish fullfillment. Fighting the good fight, defeating evil, etc. and doing it in style. Being the Hero. If any of that happened in real life I'd be road kill assuming I didn't die from fear first. But I can do it in the game. But I also don't claim the game as some deep reflection upon the nature of Heroism.

I wonder how many of them are in the same boat with story telling- worthless, but they can convince themselves they can do it in the game? And in a telling difference, they seem to consider it a deep reflection upon the nature of Story.