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Author Topic: Forge Games- Having it both ways  (Read 40459 times)

Warthur

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Forge Games- Having it both ways
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2007, 11:34:40 AM »
Quote from: One Horse Town
I was really hoping that this wouldn't make an appearance here. I got so fucked off with that thread and the views in it that i've logged off the site. The worse thing about threads of this type is any thread leads to more sales and the hotter the flames the better. That AP report was mana from heaven and i fell into the trap. Now you'll get a good proportion of the same people spouting the same shit here.

Looks like a vacation from the web is coming up. :(

Dude, it's one tiny thread. Would it kill you to ignore it?
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

JamesV

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Forge Games- Having it both ways
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2007, 11:43:14 AM »
I haven't read as as much about Forgeyness (especially Story Game Forgeyness in this case) as others have, but I gotta say that Gleichman's interpretation matches mine. You give a game a specific idea and tightly shape the system to refer to and encourage that idea in play. You make a game about being a ruthless and vile pirate, then you make the rules to give players who act ruthless and vile the benefits. As a result you get a Great Story, and folks who are willing to describe the sodomizing of esophogi.

Those who defend the game on the grounds you mentioned are missing the whole point of Story Game philosophy. A much better argument in defense of the game would revolve more around the Social Contract, and how players must be willing to express their personal limits in order to customize the comfort level for everyone involved.

And another thing, the only thing more distasteful than the snippet of AP was the fanboyish drooling over the game in general. I mean, people are bound to geek out over stuff they think is cool, but this game and what it's willing to stand for? It's a head shaker
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gleichman

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Forge Games- Having it both ways
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2007, 11:44:33 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
Brian, if you really want to investigate, look into Vincents forrum. It´ll show you your assertion 1) is basically true.


Edit: skip that.

One point of my post here was to show a means by which one could reach the conculsion based upon the printed game and printed Forge Theory- without digging through who knows how many words for the few that would indicate this.
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Werekoala

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Forge Games- Having it both ways
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2007, 11:44:45 AM »
Quote from: Warthur
For me, this is the crux of the matter. I think a lot of the kick-ass gunplay and action in the Dogs In the Vineyards games I've played in comes from a shared attitude amongst me and my social group: when a game designer says in a game design "How far will you go to get X?" we don't treat that as an invitation to a moral exploration of how far is "too far": we treat it as a challenge. I suspect the players in the Poison'd Actual Play examples you gave had much the same response.


Of course - most gamers would approach it in this fashion. Design a game where the mechanics require aberrant behavior, and the more aberrant the more benefit you get, then they're going to go balls-to-the-wall (literally, I suspect) to get as much benefit as they can. Its combining Munchkinism with "Hostel". I can't imagine it serves any purpose in the sense of true "gaming" any more than "Saw" is a real film as opposed to torture porn.

I'm not a prude, believe me - but my god, there ARE limits! I can maybe see evil NPCs doing it, but PCs? Erm.
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Pierce Inverarity

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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2007, 11:48:06 AM »
I already said my bit, which is that when it comes to the experience of violence this game, as described in the thread, doesn't go far enough. It thereby enables wallowing in violence, and so makes it tolerable if not vicarious. That, and not this or that excess, is the perversion.
Ich habe mir schon sehr lange keine Gedanken mehr über Bleistifte gemacht.--Settembrini

obryn

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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2007, 12:02:07 PM »
Looking at that example, I have as much desire to play this game as I do FATAL.  Which is to say, not at all.

There's a real, fundamental difference between playing a game like D&D, where basically you kill things and take their stuff on a kind of abstract level; and a game like this, where you revel in rape & corpse mutilation.

-O
 

gleichman

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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2007, 12:20:09 PM »
Quote from: JamesV
Those who defend the game on the grounds you mentioned are missing the whole point of Story Game philosophy. A much better argument in defense of the game would revolve more around the Social Contract, and how players must be willing to express their personal limits in order to customize the comfort level for everyone involved.


A better argument, yes. It is after all way traditional rpgs handle the matter.

But it's an impossible argument for a Forge Theorist to make. Given how defensive they are about their ideas, they should rushing to shoot down defenses like this.

Instead they appear to be allowing others to defend them incorrectly in order to make sales and win fame.
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Warthur

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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2007, 12:23:05 PM »
Another fallacy I've noticed the game's defenders deploying frequently on the Big Purple thread: analogies with movies. "Terrible things happen in good movies, sometimes, so what's the difference if they happen in a game?"

Which is ridiculous. You're not necessarily meant to be identifying with and supporting the actions of characters in movies who do terrible things. PCs in roleplaying games are protagonists directly controlled by their players, on the other hand, and while it's entirely possible that a player can make their character do repugnant things in order to make some kind of point, I suspect it's more common for players who make their character break out the rape to do so out of wish-fulfillment, or a power trip, or simply through mucking about and not especially lending much importance to what is happening in-game (the last is, I think, probably the most common motive).

If I saw a movie where the director had a clearly identifiable self-insertion character, and said character proceeded to insert himself into unconsenting victims in a manner which can be clearly identified as being wish fulfillment or stupid messing about on the part of the director, I'd say that was a pretty damn shitty film.
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

joewolz

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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2007, 12:24:33 PM »
This game is disgusting.  There is always an element of self in RPGs, and frankly, I don't want to know that much about my players.
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Warthur

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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2007, 12:29:36 PM »
Oh man, there's arguments from the White Wolf playbook as well as the standard excuses for FATAL:

Quote from: Alathon, on the Big Purple
If you're not comfortable with attempting a mature game which includes some really ugly themes, by all means excuse yourself from such. You might want to excuse yourself from this thread, since we're discussing such a game. We certainly won't hold it against you.

It's mature and edgy! If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, grandpa! We cool artsy kids are totally grown up because we talk about the rapes!
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

gleichman

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Forge Games- Having it both ways
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2007, 12:36:39 PM »
Quote from: Warthur
Another fallacy I've noticed the game's defenders deploying frequently on the Big Purple thread: analogies with movies. "Terrible things happen in good movies, sometimes, so what's the difference if they happen in a game?"


I consider this line of defense at least somewhat rational according to Forge theory, after all one of the main goals is to make the rpg more like a movie or book.

That of course ignores the idea of player identification as you point out, and which according to their own theories has to exist (i.e. the game affects the player).
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VBWyrde

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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2007, 12:47:30 PM »
Quote from: The Good Assyrian
Not when it comes to games.  To elevate a hobby to such importance that an Internet discussion is a "spiritual victory" seems silly to me.  Save your Last Stand for important things.  Real things.

I am inclined to agree with OHT.  This will likely end badly and the whole thing is best ignored.  The only winners will be the guerrilla marketers.

I'd advise walking away...
TGA


While I might agree that walking away is reasonable in this case on the grounds that harping on it is like throwing fuel on the fire... I do not agree at all with your assertion that it's only a game and therefore it doesnt matter.

Games are a reflection of our culture.  Games teach lessons, and most moral lessons are learned via story telling.  Our outlook on life is largely informed by the stories we listen to and tell.   Therefore I think it is important to pay attention to what stories are being told via games.   To me the game in question appears to be just another example of Nihilism in 21st Century Story Telling.

http://elthosrpg.blogspot.com/2007/01/21st-century-nihilism-in-story-telling.html

Personally, I think this is very important.  Bad Stories make bad vibes, which in turn creates cynicism, which in turn destroys civilizations just like ours.   Good stories do the opposite.   They create healthy minds.  Unfortunately, we are in the Bad Story part of the cycle at this point.   Maybe it is inevitable.   But I don't think so.   I think it is much more that people are so saturated with negativity coming at us from almost every (mass media) direction that they've now come to accept Nihilism as both "Normal" and "Cool" at the same time (a telling contradiction).   The more this spreads the worse off civilization will be.  

But do I think it should be "Stopped"?  No.  That would be counter productive, and frankly quite impossible to achieve.  The only alternative would be override these Bad Stories with Good Stories.   Currently our culture appears to have lost track of what Good Stories actually mean.   That's a pity.  We could use some Good Stories about now.  Well, I know I could, anyway.
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Warthur

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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2007, 12:53:07 PM »
Quote from: gleichman
I consider this line of defense at least somewhat rational according to Forge theory, after all one of the main goals is to make the rpg more like a movie or book.


Which is, of course, hilarious. Most Actual Play accounts - whether of Forge games or traditional RPGs - would make completely shitty movies and books. (Heck, some of them have actually done so...)
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

Werekoala

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« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2007, 12:57:16 PM »
Quote from: gleichman
I consider this line of defense at least somewhat rational according to Forge theory, after all one of the main goals is to make the rpg more like a movie or book.

That of course ignores the idea of player identification as you point out, and which according to their own theories has to exist (i.e. the game affects the player).


Terrible things happen in really crappy movies too. dosn't make 'em good movies.
Lan Astaslem


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gleichman

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Forge Games- Having it both ways
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2007, 12:57:46 PM »
Quote from: VBWyrde
Games are a reflection of our culture.  Games teach lessons, and most moral lessons are learned via story telling.  Our outlook on life is largely informed by the stories we listen to and tell.   Therefore I think it is important to pay attention to what stories are being told via games.   To me the game in question appears to be just another example of Nihilism in 21st Century Story Telling.


Nicely stated.

People focus too much on the large events as being important. They are, but they come but rarely and how we confront them when they do arrive is determined by how we dealt with all the little things that came before.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you've simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.