This system was great when it had a really focussed purpose, roughly between the first publication of Arms Law and the first edition of Character Law. Everything since has made the game more complicated and harder to learn, play and run, without really improving noticeably. I don't think it can be fixed without sweeping the table clean, putting on the 'chunks' of the original system that made it special (combat tables, etc.) and then gluing them back together again in the simplest way possible. Also, take advantage of the fact that we now have computers and cell phones that should be able to instantly handle the one thing that drives people away from the game: Interminable table look ups.

I'm actually finding that there's less that I'm feeling the need to change than I was expecting to.

Sorting out and repricing the skills is going to be somewhat time-consuming, but there's probably not a great deal else I'll change.

You really don't even need to do that, you can just use the current list and not buy the skills you don't want.  A cut down list would be a handy thing to give the players.  Have you looked at RMFrp?  It's list's already cut down a bit.

Really, the thing that should be understood about RMSS is that it's a case study in what goes wrong when you try to make everyone happy.  On the one hand, similar skills are handled much more cleanly than RM2, stat bonuses are additive rather than averaged, you don't have to roll for your Body Development score, development points are more balanced and give something to folks who aren't super human.  The combat sequence is more usable and easier to follow though it does have its quirks.  Training packages make it easier to build a character.

But the aggregate of the system is really baroque.  There are several different skill progression rates.  Little codes for progression and critical results are confusing at first glance.  Leveling up is tedious as ever changing stat bonuses require the whole two pages of spreadsheet to be re-totaled every time.  Training packages have sliding scale discounts that throw the balance of levels totally out of whack.

If I could have my way with it, I'd make sure the TP skill purchases always matched the category purchases so you could drop categories or skills and just divide development points by two for skills or three for categories.  Stat gain rolls would be purchase with DPs but the DPs per level would be fixed so it wouldn't be exploitable.  I'd just drop the special combat maneuvers and balance out the percentage activity to be a little more flexible.  I'd get rid of the combined and special skill progressions.  Combined progression stuff like cooking or physician would be categories though the cascading might get out of hand.  But take Two Weapon Combat skill, it already has a sub skill for each combination, why shouldn't it be a category?

Oh well, The Arcane Confabulation / Dragon Shadowed Lands is my answer to Rolemaster, it's basically The Standard System without the Rolemaster.  Sure I'm always tweaking it but it's more what I want really.

I think a game that has 10 stats and a bunch of classes has no business also having a skill system of any kind, much less a gigantic complicated one. What the hell are all those other numbers and categories for?

Quote from: David Johansen;953415You really don't even need to do that, you can just use the current list and not buy the skills you don't want.  A cut down list would be a handy thing to give the players.  Have you looked at RMFrp?  It's list's already cut down a bit.

I haven't checked out RMFRP at all yet. I will get around to it.

A shorter list with nothing else changed would certainly be easier, but I'm not convinced it would be better. For example, I only have one skill left in Subterfuge (Stealth) -- Stalking/Hiding. Is a category worth keeping for just one skill? If so, it should be changed to a combined progression. Should the cost change as well?

Also, folding skills into a smaller number of categories improves the ability of characters to be broadly skilled, which is a good thing, IMO.

QuoteReally, the thing that should be understood about RMSS is that it's a case study in what goes wrong when you try to make everyone happy.  On the one hand, similar skills are handled much more cleanly than RM2, stat bonuses are additive rather than averaged, you don't have to roll for your Body Development score, development points are more balanced and give something to folks who aren't super human.  The combat sequence is more usable and easier to follow though it does have its quirks.  Training packages make it easier to build a character.

But the aggregate of the system is really baroque.  There are several different skill progression rates.  Little codes for progression and critical results are confusing at first glance.  Leveling up is tedious as ever changing stat bonuses require the whole two pages of spreadsheet to be re-totaled every time.  Training packages have sliding scale discounts that throw the balance of levels totally out of whack.

The crit codes are brilliant. So much easier to take in the relevant information at a glance. I'll fight anyone who claims the earlier plain-English versions were better.

The varied progressions serve a purpose. As I've mentioned, I'm learning that I'm actually pretty happy with most the decisions they made, although I certainly understand the appeal of RM2/RMX/RMC

Quote from: Larsdangly;953418I think a game that has 10 stats and a bunch of classes has no business also having a skill system of any kind, much less a gigantic complicated one. What the hell are all those other numbers and categories for?

Skills is exactly what RM is about. You have a "default" class (Everyman/Layman) with various skill costs. Then you have variant classes that trade cheaper costs in one area for more expensive ones in others. You might not like it, but it's a significant part of what makes the game what it is.

The stats do exactly what they do in most skill-based games. For the most part, they provide skill modifiers.

Quote from: Larsdangly;953418I think a game that has 10 stats and a bunch of classes has no business also having a skill system of any kind, much less a gigantic complicated one. What the hell are all those other numbers and categories for?

Well since you asked.

Okay, first off you have a profession bonus which represents the fact that a fighter is generally better at fighting than a mage.  Then you have skill costs that represent the focus of the character's talents and training.  Each level, a fighter can buy one rank in their main weapon category for two points and a second rank for three more but they can only buy one rank in a spell list and it costs them 20 points.  Most skills follow the standard progression that goes -15*3*2*1*0.5 with the -15 being the unskilled penalty, 3 being the bonus per rank for the first ten ranks, 2 per rank for the next ten ranks, and so forth, diminishing returns.  Skill categories progress at a rate of -15*2*1.5*1*0.5*0  (if I remember right) anyhow, the combined rate is used for categories with broadly unrelated skills like "crafts" which contains metal work, sewing, and cooking.  These tend to cost twice as much as standard skills but progress at -30*5*3*2*1.  Races have various body development (hit point) progressions.  A few skills like spell lists and alertness have a limited 0*1*1*0.5*0 progression because they function a bit differently in the rules.

As for why it needs so many skills, Rolemaster, like GURPS is a system in which capabilities are never assumed. It's on your character sheet or you don't have it.  It's certainly a detail oriented system.  Skills are related by professional usage, shared knowledge and techniques, and the talents associated with them.

It's not a great game for pickup sessions but I find the detail level and progression really get people into their characters and can really do a nice job of fitting characters to the setting.  Culture and training packages are essentially a modular life path system.  Is it a lot of work?  Certainly.  Can it be a lot of fun?  Absolutely.

Played RM religiously for 10 years or so. It takes a little work but when it comes together, wow!

Quote from: Larsdangly;953418I think a game that has 10 stats and a bunch of classes has no business also having a skill system of any kind, much less a gigantic complicated one. What the hell are all those other numbers and categories for?

You are pointing towards something that IS a bit odd about this system. One bad thing about RM (if you ask me) is that it inherited a bit too much from D&D, including not having put much thought into a unified way to use stats. They sort of included an "intuitive" way to use the stats (like Runequest), but it simply doesn't work if you ask me (roll, add stat bonus, and check table. This will usually end in failure unless the task is very very easy, and the stat bonus is usually too low to make a huge difference even if you have a much higher stat than normal).

So my fixes (mentioned previously in this thread post #15) originally included a better stat-roll system, but then I realized that since the system is skill based I could fix it by using more "general" skills that cover the same bases as the stats would.

Also on top of it all, Rolemaster, like D&D, has often been extremely poor at pointing out what the thought behind a rule was. Still, it can be very fun when you get it working.

So, sorting out the category pricing has proved relatively painless so far, with the Non Spell Using professions done.

Stripping pretty much everything out of Subterfuge (Stealth) and then dropping Stalk/Hide and Trickery into Subterfuge (General) was a little tricky, as there are a few classes that need Stalk/Hide but not anything from Subterfuge (Mechanics). Fortunately, setting Stalk/Hide to Everyman or Occupational as necessary is an easy fix.

I've never seen much use of Special Attacks or Combat Manoeuvres, and I want to make them more appealing. The two categories have been combined and typically using the cheapest cost of the two former categories. I'm also leaning towards giving it a Standard instead of Combined progression.

MA Combat Manoeuvres I'm leaving costed as per Martial Arts Companion, because the entire Martial Arts system is linked to the category, and I don't really want to mess with it.

I've decided against most of the other optional rules from most of the Companions. The Essence caster types add a lot of flavour, but the added complexity isn't worth it, IMO. The Mentalism mental combat rules are an extra DP sink that, similarly, can't really justify themselves, IMO. I will use the various ritual magic rules. Elemental Corruption I'll probably use, since I'm planning on Elemental Cults to be an important part of the setting. Variant Priests are in.

I'm a big fan of the Martial Arts system from the Companion, but I decided to leave out Chi Powers. I'm also not using Weapon Styles.

I've also been a bit side-tracked with world-building, which is coming along nicely.

Speaking of world building etc. I always wanted to use Rolemaster in a world based directly on the classic McBride covers (along with some of the MERP covers in Harad as well):

I played RM every week from 1983-1987. Loved those glorious GB McIntosh covers! Were I to resurrect a campaign today, I would stick to that edition (1st). It had a satisfyingly manageable amount of skills and classes. I bought RMSS in the 90s and was appalled at the bloat. If I could be in charge of a new edition, I would get rid of the d100 roll-over and go with a d20 roll-over. I don't see any real benefit to d100. But, man, we had so much fun with that game!

Quote from: vivsavage;953648I played RM every week from 1983-1987. Loved those glorious GB McIntosh covers! Were I to resurrect a campaign today, I would stick to that edition (1st). It had a satisfyingly manageable amount of skills and classes. I bought RMSS in the 90s and was appalled at the bloat. If I could be in charge of a new edition, I would get rid of the d100 roll-over and go with a d20 roll-over. I don't see any real benefit to d100. But, man, we had so much fun with that game!

You certainly could do a d20 hack of RM. However, the rules do make use of the improved granularity in a number of ways. For example:

* Fumble ranges. On d20, everything would pretty much fumble on 1.
* Breakage numbers in RMSS
* Crit rarity (eg, plenty of A crit tables have less than 1-in-20 lethal results).

Speaking of crits, I was just reading through some of the crit tables. Damn if that doesn't inspire me even more to actually run this. And it's not just the really impressive lethal ones, there's so much amusing, dry sarcasm all through the tables.

Back to my original topic, I've ended up making a few adjustments to the skill costs for the Elemental Champion and the Warrior Mage, who both had some unreasonably expensive weapon costs. Anyone aware of any other professions that might be worth looking at for possible tweaking? So far I've gone through Non Spell Users, Channelling and Essence, without noticing any other glaring issues. Mentalism, Arcane and Hybrids still to go.


Also, those guys in the picture need to be careful. I have a strange feeling that some kind of demonic entity is going to arise out of that circular protrusion with the wisps of smoke.

Oh, and one more thing: get rid of unmodified rolls (but keep all the rolls open ended). This way, a very skilled person will only fumble if the roll is tremendously bad.

But keep the weird 66 results.