Quote from: cranebump;771404I wouldn't fret about a low-STR character in a game with DEX-based melee.  DEX is such a ridiculous uber-stat in 5th that you can run a fighter with low STR and do just fine.

Remember also that a high strength no dexterity character can get just as much AC in heavy armor (since high strength cancels a lot of the heavy armor penalties), while using bigger dice weapons than the DEX fighter.

High dex is going to have an edge in out of combat acrobatics type stuff and in stealth, but the high str fighter is going to be doing more damage. Its a tradeoff. People seem to ignore that because of the way heavy armor works in the game, that while strength isn't that necessary for dex fighters, dex is also not very necessary for high str fighters.

Quote from: tenbones;771436Personally I chalk it up to being Basic. It might not change, but I hope it does.

Personally I'd like to have seen a bit more stat-mechanic distribution like in Fantasy Craft where all the stats matter and dump-stats are practically non-existent. But the downstream design effects required to pull that off would have probably been too much for Basic.

We'll see. I have one fighter in my game, and went Dex-finesse dual scimitar wielding desert-fighter. I haven't felt his combat ability is "too much" or "not enough". He's a total number's guy, and right now I think he's okay with how things are. We'll know more after a few more levels I'm sure.

My gut reaction is - it seems fine for now.

Having said that, I've always maintained the best stats in the world won't save your sorry ass for doing stupid shit. So stats are really kinda meh to me as a GM. If it makes you feel better as a player - I'm happy for you and hope you use them well.

Silly anecdote - I once ran Throne of Bloodstone as a one-shot. I let all my players choose a hero from the original Deities and Demigods books to play as their characters. I had one player choose Elric and another Yyrkoon (so Stormbringer and Mournblade were BOTH in play) and Cu Chulain and Raiko, and fucking Math the wizard. I ran that module RAW and slagged the whole party. Sure they fucking slaughtered MASSIVE amounts of monsters, an 800hp roided dragon (Fyrillicus - look him up) among hundreds of demons, devils and killed Tiamat... they still failed, and every single one of them due to making dumb decisions.

I was hoping for FantasyCraft with the abilities also but it would never fly for a gateway game like Dnd let alone a Dnd toolkit game like 5e. Just be happy that 5e IS a toolkit game and ignore or change what bothers you or doesn't work for your Dnd or setting or both. It's 2e modern!!! Go nuts hon.

Quote from: Will;7713945e spell slots are, basically, spell points. Just with different quantum energies.

Actually, you could sort of imagine a wizard's spell slots as electrons in various shells...

...

Ok, it doesn't work EXACTLY, but hey.

Yeah, You know that's an explanation that I can buy.

Quote from: Marleycat;771426By the math possibly but do you play or just run numbers devoid of actual situations?

Evidently some folks need sarcasm glasses. I said DEX is a ridiculous uber stat and it is. I can get inish, saves, AC reduction, to hit and damage from one number. I DO play the fucking game, thank you very much, but this stat stands out as glaringly overvalued next to STR, so much so I HAVE to notice it, or be a boneheaded moron. The whole finesse strain in the modern game is just a boondoggle. When DEX was primarily a ranged/defense stat, and STR the damage stat, you had more tangible trade offs. Now, you CAN'T skip DEX. It's intertwined in everything, like ivy.  I'd like to see finesse removed, but that's going to have to happen in my home brew.

(And who pissed in your Cheerios, marleycat?)

Quote from: cranebump;771470Evidently some folks need sarcasm glasses. I said DEX is a ridiculous uber stat and it is. I can get inish, saves, AC reduction, to hit and damage from one number. I DO play the fucking game, thank you very much, but this stat stands out as glaringly overvalued next to STR, so much so I HAVE to notice it, or be a boneheaded moron. The whole finesse strain in the modern game is just a boondoggle. When DEX was primarily a ranged/defense stat, and STR the damage stat, you had more tangible trade offs. Now, you CAN'T skip DEX. It's intertwined in everything, like ivy.  I'd like to see finesse removed, but that's going to have to happen in my home brew.

I don't see why you can't skip it tbh. Wear Heavy Armour and it doesn't apply to AC at all. If you are not proficient in Dex saves, you are not going to be making many even with DEX 20. Use Thrown weapons and non-finesse weapons, and it's never going to apply to your attacks.

The only thing you cant really mitigate is Initiative, and that's hardly the end of the world.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;771437Remember also that a high strength no dexterity character can get just as much AC in heavy armor (since high strength cancels a lot of the heavy armor penalties), while using bigger dice weapons than the DEX fighter.

High dex is going to have an edge in out of combat acrobatics type stuff and in stealth, but the high str fighter is going to be doing more damage. Its a tradeoff. People seem to ignore that because of the way heavy armor works in the game, that while strength isn't that necessary for dex fighters, dex is also not very necessary for high str fighters.

I don't believe the damage/defense trade off really offsets the utility of DEX that much, if only because of INISH and save bonus. As far as defense goes, how about a 19AC in studded leather/shield? Use a rapier and you have the same +5 dmg mod as the 20-STR fighter (because everyone will eventually have a 20 in their primary) who, to eclipse your defense would need a shield, which would thereby negate using the weapons that give him the damage advantage he longer has.

The thing is, I'm not a numbers guy, but I can spot this one, so it has to be pretty obvious. I feel compelled to remove finesse, if only to make the defense/mobility vs. Damage choice more relevant.  Right now, it really isn't. Not as much as it SHOULD be, anyway.

The high dex fighter will have 19 AC, and average 11.5 points of damage on a strike with a rapier (4.5 (d8) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (duelist fighting style))

The high strength two handed fighter will have 18 AC, and average 13.33 points of damage on a strike with a greatsword (8.33 (2d6, Great Weapon Fighting Style) + 5 (Str))

The high strength sword and board fighter will have 20 AC, and average 11.5 points of damage on a strike with a longsword (4.5 (d8) + 5 (Str) + 2 (duelist fighting style))

While the high dex fighter has a bonus in some situations (higher init, dex saves) the high str fighter will be able to carry significantly more equipment, be a better climber, etc.

I still see plenty of reasons to play high strength, though completely dumping dex is probably still not he BEST choice, its entirely feasible. Then again, I don't think dumping strength is the best choice either, unless you play a game where you don't bother counting your encumbrance.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;771476The high dex fighter will have 19 AC, and average 11.5 points of damage on a strike with a rapier (4.5 (d8) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (duelist fighting style))

The high strength two handed fighter will have 18 AC, and average 13.33 points of damage on a strike with a greatsword (8.33 (2d6, Great Weapon Fighting Style) + 5 (Str))

The high strength sword and board fighter will have 20 AC, and average 11.5 points of damage on a strike with a longsword (4.5 (d8) + 5 (Str) + 2 (duelist fighting style))

While the high dex fighter has a bonus in some situations (higher init, dex saves) the high str fighter will be able to carry significantly more equipment, be a better climber, etc.

I still see plenty of reasons to play high strength, though completely dumping dex is probably still not he BEST choice, its entirely feasible. Then again, I don't think dumping strength is the best choice either, unless you play a game where you don't bother counting your encumbrance.

Works for me.

I often enjoy playing a strong warrior that has the dexterity of a cinderblock.
So it is good that low dexterity is not crippling.

Quote from: cranebump;771474I don't believe the damage/defense trade off really offsets the utility of DEX that much, if only because of INISH and save bonus. As far as defense goes, how about a 19AC in studded leather/shield? Use a rapier and you have the same +5 dmg mod as the 20-STR fighter (because everyone will eventually have a 20 in their primary) who, to eclipse your defense would need a shield, which would thereby negate using the weapons that give him the damage advantage he longer has.

The thing is, I'm not a numbers guy, but I can spot this one, so it has to be pretty obvious. I feel compelled to remove finesse, if only to make the defense/mobility vs. Damage choice more relevant.  Right now, it really isn't. Not as much as it SHOULD be, anyway.

I gotta agree here. DEX is way too good compared to STR.

Also what's up with the fighter defensive fighting style?  +1 to AC IF you are wearing armor. :confused:

I suppose the style has nothing whatsoever to do with knowing how to defend else it would be of use no matter what.

I always liked the idea of a huge, hulking brute surprising his/her foes with how fast and agile he/she is. Think the Mountain in Game of Thrones.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;771476The high dex fighter will have 19 AC, and average 11.5 points of damage on a strike with a rapier (4.5 (d8) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (duelist fighting style))

The high strength two handed fighter will have 18 AC, and average 13.33 points of damage on a strike with a greatsword (8.33 (2d6, Great Weapon Fighting Style) + 5 (Str))

The high strength sword and board fighter will have 20 AC, and average 11.5 points of damage on a strike with a longsword (4.5 (d8) + 5 (Str) + 2 (duelist fighting style))

While the high dex fighter has a bonus in some situations (higher init, dex saves) the high str fighter will be able to carry significantly more equipment, be a better climber, etc.

I still see plenty of reasons to play high strength, though completely dumping dex is probably still not he BEST choice, its entirely feasible. Then again, I don't think dumping strength is the best choice either, unless you play a game where you don't bother counting your encumbrance.

I really hope they actually change Dueling.... IT should not work with a shield... IT is supposed to simulate the classic Swashbuckler Errol Flynn single rapier (or other weapon) fencer... Having it work with shield really defeats its aesthetic and makes it way too good for what it is supposed to be...

Quote from: Exploderwizard;771480I gotta agree here. DEX is way too good compared to STR.

Also what's up with the fighter defensive fighting style?  +1 to AC IF you are wearing armor. :confused:

I suppose the style has nothing whatsoever to do with knowing how to defend else it would be of use no matter what.

I see it more as an armor specialty. Someone who has trained so long in armor that they know what hits they can let the armor take allowing them to leave themselves open for hits most others wouldn't.

Protection is the shield specialty

Quote from: Exploderwizard;771480IAlso what's up with the fighter defensive fighting style?  +1 to AC IF you are wearing armor. :confused:

I suppose the style has nothing whatsoever to do with knowing how to defend else it would be of use no matter what.

It's to discourage you from single-dip multi-classing from Monk or Barbarian.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;771487I really hope they actually change Dueling.... IT should not work with a shield... IT is supposed to simulate the classic Swashbuckler Errol Flynn single rapier (or other weapon) fencer... Having it work with shield really defeats its aesthetic and makes it way too good for what it is supposed to be...

Bucklers were very popular for dueling. I think the problem lies in the DEX based damage bonus.

Quote from: jadrax;771490It's to discourage you from single-dip multi-classing from Monk or Barbarian.

Monk I can understand. Don't (some) barbarians wear armor?


Another thing that occurred to me as I was reading the classes last night. Because of the way proficiency bonuses work and bounded accuracy, the fighter isn't really better at hitting things with a weapon than any other class (ability scores being equal).

Multiple attacks might represent this, but it just seems odd.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;771493Don't (some) barbarians wear armor?

True, but the ones that do it wont be an issue for.

Ignoring Magic Items; an unarmored barbarian can hit AC 22; a Light Armored Barbarian can hit AC 19; a Medium Armored barbarian can hit AC 19. So it moving a 19 to a 20 is fine, a 22 to 23 is a bit over the top for a single level dip.

Note these numbers are based on the Feb 11th play-test material, and may be very wrong.