I have an older thread here on the evolution of D&D's STR attributes.

Quote from: ThePoxBox;1095936Thanks for the insight from older D&D editions. Encumbrance has become optional in D&D5E, but I'd want to make sure things are reasonably realistic when it comes to female STR. I'm thinking of having a second d20 roll for females that roll a 13, with a chance of having 18 STR, albeit smaller than males:

  1-  6  13
  7-11  14
12-15  15
16-18  16
     19  17
     20  18

I'm not sure if the math is right on the second part. There are some contributors to this thread that seem to have a better handle on the arrays, but this is my first effort.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1095948You realize last month was Pride month?

...

I had no idea. I thought I was the only person who liked everyone and treated them equally. It's like I just realized the world DOES have good people in it! HOOZAH!

Quote from: trechriron;1095985I had no idea. I thought I was the only person who liked everyone and treated them equally. It's like I just realized the world DOES have good people in it! HOOZAH!

If that is not sarcaism, then you need fucking help because your perception of reality is grossly wrong.

Quote from: Anselyn;1095918For the top male weight lifter, does anyone know the range of weights over which he'd go from 100% chance of success to 0%?

Is 100% chance at 400kg, 450kg, 460 kg?
Is 0% 479 kg, 480 kg, 500 kg?

My guess is that there results are a lot less "swingy" than most skill RPG systems and that variation in performance is a small fraction compared to overall ability. That's why world ranking work for weight lifting, tennis etc. without lots of volatility.  

Yes. Or more precisely, the performance of someone in their first couple of years varies a lot, an experienced person less. I see this in running a gym, that with a newbie, one squat up and down may be terrible, and the next rep great, and so on; but 12 months in, and they're much more consistent. Over time, performance gets better but it also gets more consistent.

Now, looking at sporting performances. Consider that in a weightlifting competition, you know months or even years ahead the exact date it'll be on, and can prepare accordingly, gradually peaking for that one particular day. And you can take your time to do your lifts, and they're spread over the day. And a tennis game, they also know some time ahead when the game will be and who they'll play, they can study their opponent's game style - and it has a lot of back-and-forth over some hours, imagine each reach for the ball as a dice roll, things tend to average out.

Weightlifters don't have to lift weights by surprise while being shot at, nor do tennis players get surprise matches not knowing who the opponent is or the weather etc. And of course, you hear about the sporting performances of the experienced ones, nobody's televising the Saturday afternoon social tennis game of you and your nerd friends. I think you would find that their performance would be less, of course, but also wildly inconsistent.

In game terms it's like saying we'll go from rolling Attribute + Skill +d10-d10 to Attribute + Skill +d4-d4. Or perhaps the dice don't need to change, since the skill will become larger than the variation, eg novice skill of 20+d10-d10 vs experienced skill of 40+d10-d10, the variability goes from proportionally large to proportionally small.

But anyway, variability in performance is also less when the person is experienced, has time to prepare, or when it involves many different applications of the skill (rolls). Roleplaying game systems tend not to simulate tasks which you have months to prepare for, but tasks which are momentary in nature. I mean there's sometimes magic crafting and stuff, but generally for purposes of style we want that to be crazy and unpredictable, so we treat it like a combat roll. Not many games have people roll to build a house over 6 months, or something.

Most of us have had the experience of happily driving along a straight road holding a conversation with the music playing, then looking to do a U-turn, or drive through a supermarket parking lot with kids running around, and asking people in the car to be quiet, and/or turning the music off. As you reach the limits of your ability, you want to remove distractions and extra challenges to that ability; but in a sporting competition, this is accomplished by the months of preparation beforehand.

Ah Pride month! Our new national holiday for sanctimonious pricks, indoctrinated children, clowns jumping on the fad train and corporations chasing dollars!

I wonder if gay guys will be allowed to attend in a few years? They might not present the right optics! LOL.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1095989Weightlifters don't have to lift weights by surprise while being shot at

You could offer that as special event at your gym!

Quote from: Snowman0147;1095988If that is not sarcaism, then you need fucking help because your perception of reality is grossly wrong.

I keep forgetting to put my [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags on. Also, my perception of reality is completely wrong. Not sure how to answer this one.

Quote from: trechriron;1095985I had no idea. I thought I was the only person who liked everyone and treated them equally. It's like I just realized the world DOES have good people in it! HOOZAH!

My point being, while there are surely situations where LGBT people have issues, sometimes very terrible issues in the case of some countries, most of the west celebrates LGBT people, conspicuously and loudly. Times change, and the narrative that gay people are oppressed is no longer accurate.

Spend your time storytelling instead of worrying about nonsensical things that don't matter for rpgs.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1095989Yes. Or more precisely, the performance of someone in their first couple of years varies a lot, an experienced person less. I see this in running a gym, that with a newbie, one squat up and down may be terrible, and the next rep great, and so on; but 12 months in, and they're much more consistent. Over time, performance gets better but it also gets more consistent.

Now, looking at sporting performances. Consider that in a weightlifting competition, you know months or even years ahead the exact date it'll be on, and can prepare accordingly, gradually peaking for that one particular day. And you can take your time to do your lifts, and they're spread over the day. And a tennis game, they also know some time ahead when the game will be and who they'll play, they can study their opponent's game style - and it has a lot of back-and-forth over some hours, imagine each reach for the ball as a dice roll, things tend to average out.

Weightlifters don't have to lift weights by surprise while being shot at, nor do tennis players get surprise matches not knowing who the opponent is or the weather etc. And of course, you hear about the sporting performances of the experienced ones, nobody's televising the Saturday afternoon social tennis game of you and your nerd friends. I think you would find that their performance would be less, of course, but also wildly inconsistent.

In game terms it's like saying we'll go from rolling Attribute + Skill +d10-d10 to Attribute + Skill +d4-d4. Or perhaps the dice don't need to change, since the skill will become larger than the variation, eg novice skill of 20+d10-d10 vs experienced skill of 40+d10-d10, the variability goes from proportionally large to proportionally small.

But anyway, variability in performance is also less when the person is experienced, has time to prepare, or when it involves many different applications of the skill (rolls). Roleplaying game systems tend not to simulate tasks which you have months to prepare for, but tasks which are momentary in nature. I mean there's sometimes magic crafting and stuff, but generally for purposes of style we want that to be crazy and unpredictable, so we treat it like a combat roll. Not many games have people roll to build a house over 6 months, or something.

Most of us have had the experience of happily driving along a straight road holding a conversation with the music playing, then looking to do a U-turn, or drive through a supermarket parking lot with kids running around, and asking people in the car to be quiet, and/or turning the music off. As you reach the limits of your ability, you want to remove distractions and extra challenges to that ability; but in a sporting competition, this is accomplished by the months of preparation beforehand.

Sporting events provide a relatively consistent baseline. If male competitive weightlifters can on average lift 30% more weight than female competitive weightlifters, it provides a baseline. Similarly the top record holders for the 100 meter dash are all men of African descent, the fastest white man barely makes the top 50 (#48 Christophe Lemaitre) and the fastest woman doesn't even break the top 2000. The difference between the fastest man and the fastest woman is less than 1 second (9.58 to 10.49), but if one felt this was truly important it does at least provide a consistent baseline.


Your point I would think would be more along the lines of "well I have an 18/00 strength and the rules say I can only lift 200kg, and the top real world weightlifter can lift 257kg, the rules are broken". Then yeah, under controlled, competitive situations with balanced weight, and preparation the PC could probably be allowed to lift more.

Much like the common argument, "at the range I can consistently hit an 8" pie plate at 200m so what's up with my bad ass special forces guy only having a 50% chance of hitting a whole man at 50m?"
"Is that pie plate moving?, is that pie plate shooting at you? Is your buddy popping off a machinegun in your ear while you aim at that pie plate?"        


I'm pretty solidly in the camp of its fantasy, it is genre consistent to have badass women who can best most men in a contest of strength, so not really promoting that gender norming stats is constructive or desirable in the typical game. I do think that when there is sufficient evidence to support it, and if players desire it, there is nothing inherently evil about it.
It's kind of like including prejudices in a game, definitely a hot button issue, but for the right group playing a unit that is trying to rescue jews ahead of advancing Nazi armies, or dealing with African American PCs in the Jim Crow south it can enhance the game. With the wrong group it can result in hurt feelings or devolve into a game of racist wet dream fantasies.

Wow. That Doritos rainbow has seven colors. The gay pride rainbow only has six. Maybe Frito Lay is subconsciously protesting it all.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1095948Wil Wheaton is a dick.

Amen.

...well I have an 18/00 strength...

Regardless of the actual weight allowances listed in the book, it also stated that 18/00 is "the strongest man in the world". With that, I would substitute in whatever our strongest man in the world can do.

Quote from: Timothe;1096014Wow. That Doritos rainbow has seven colors. The gay pride rainbow only has six. Maybe Frito Lay is subconsciously protesting it all.

Fun fact: the original one had eight colours, it changed over the years, it's been as low as six and as many as nine colours

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_flag_(LGBT_movement)

There is diversity even in the kinds of rainbow flags.

Quote from: ThePoxBox;1095619I'm happy to chat with all kinds of people. My Discord is Datum#7113. Drop me a line. I also frequent Giant Dragons Gamer Chat when I'm not working. It's held on most Wednesdays and Thursdays around 6PM ET. here's a link to that Discord https://discord.gg/KMws7dH

As for FATAL, I can't say that's even close to the kind of game I'm looking for. I'm not looking for anus diameter. I'm looking for a system that has rules that illustrate what is different about the genders, among other things, so that the magical things in the world stand out even more in the mind as fantastic.

Men are bigger, on the average and their is overlap. If each were equally strong for their size, that would mean men were stronger, on the average and with overlap. Actually, men tend to be somewhat stronger for their size, on the average and with overlap (otaawo). So, men tend to be quite a bit stronger, otaawo. Women are healthier, otaawo.
Being strong for your size is, in many circumstances, more valuable than sheer strength. If you don't have a size attribute, or if you have the simpleminded Size = Strength, you can't model this. In my game rules, which are not a D&D variant, strength equals size averaged with a random number, plus a bonus for con. I don't figure in that men are stronger for their size because I am already politically incorrect enough.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1096074Men are bigger, on the average and their is overlap. If each were equally strong for their size, that would mean men were stronger, on the average and with overlap. Actually, men tend to be somewhat stronger for their size, on the average and with overlap (otaawo). So, men tend to be quite a bit stronger, otaawo. Women are healthier, otaawo.
Being strong for your size is, in many circumstances, more valuable than sheer strength. If you don't have a size attribute, or if you have the simpleminded Size = Strength, you can't model this. In my game rules, which are not a D&D variant, strength equals size averaged with a random number, plus a bonus for con. I don't figure in that men are stronger for their size because I am already politically incorrect enough.

Thanks for the insight on how you handle things. That sounds a bit too complex for what I'm going for, but sounds more accurate than what I'm using. Accuracy vs Complexity is a pretty common trade-off.