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Author Topic: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?  (Read 3650 times)

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2022, 09:56:32 AM »
'But dey reproduced fast' is also a dumb excuse for human dominance in most lazy human+dwarf+elf fantasy.

Middle Earth follows song convention. The elves and Dwarves are dying out because the magic juice is running out. Wether or not the assholes will rule the world before its completly gone is the premise of the series.
In other series either balance out your races, or explain why one isn't dominant over all others.

Wrath of God

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2022, 10:16:19 AM »
I'd say mythical "magic juice is running out (vastly imprecise)" of Tolkien high epic elves vs. cynical "their birth rates are way inferior compared to humans" are both relatively fine explanations.
Also: dwarves do not follow elven ways in Tolkien, and they are not dying out yet - in fact they have certain reneissance, and probably will reclaim Moria soon into 4th age now that Durin's Bane was slain. But they are not numerous species with skewed gender proprotions, that's noted by Tolkien himself.
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VisionStorm

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2022, 10:48:46 AM »
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They're ALL crap, or at least flawed, mechanics.

Giving some races more power than others will ALWAYS be an issue, no matter how you handle it, at least if you care about balance or some races being more attractive choices than others. Question is, which one is least crap, cuz they're all flawed in some way, and I don't think there's a way around that. Best you can do is mitigate the problems, not vanish them completely.

Even making races artificially weaker doesn't work, cuz its not an authentic presentation of what that race is supposed to be like. Though, I can understand long lived races like elves starting out at low levels for balance purposes, despite them being implied as what would be called "high-level" creatures in RPG terms within fiction. But they should still get their basic capabilities, like special senses, resistances or ability bonuses and such--which inevitably leads us to some races being stronger than others (and back to the start of this post). There is no silver bullet solution once you go down that road.

I think ultimately making some power-caps as explanation for setting in human-dominance is relatively weak idea.
In The Witcher world elves are bit stronger than men, in Middle-Earth wood elves are slighly better while Eldars are wuxia superhero level compared to human (with Numenoreans somewhere in between). In both cases elves fade away, while era of man arised.

As one dwarven character in the Witcher explained: "it's because you breed like fokin rabbits, and it's enough for yer wench to sit on male pants for her belly to grew" ;)

Yup. Unless they're powerful enough to wipe out an entire race, special powers can't beat birthrates, which is why if a nuclear holocaust wipes us out, the cockroaches will inherit the Earth, and they're more numerous than us even now. And elves aren't even drastically more powerful than humans in LotR.

'But dey reproduced fast' is also a dumb excuse for human dominance in most lazy human+dwarf+elf fantasy.

Middle Earth follows song convention. The elves and Dwarves are dying out because the magic juice is running out. Wether or not the assholes will rule the world before its completly gone is the premise of the series.
In other series either balance out your races, or explain why one isn't dominant over all others.

If reproductive success really was such a dumb excuse it wouldn't have worked for various species in real life. Yet here we are, outliving every other species from the "Homo" line. Even physically stronger ones like Neanderthals, or larger ones like Denisovans.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2022, 10:57:02 AM »
If reproductive success really was such a dumb excuse it wouldn't have worked for various species in real life. Yet here we are, outliving every other species from the "Homo" line. Even physically stronger ones like Neanderthals, or larger ones like Denisovans.

Which is also why we are subservient to our reptilian overlords with their many eggs. Research into our past is not gonna get 100% precise results but im pretty sure there where more differences between us and neanderthals then pure birth rate.

Human birthrates are pretty piddly comparison to almost every other species on the planet (slower gestation, smaller litters). But we beat them out with our special powers. WE are the Elves of the world.

I'd say mythical "magic juice is running out (vastly imprecise)"

I was being vastly imprecise on purpose. It was magical vodka which made elves work. But then some guy institutd a magical prohibition which is why all the elves are also so depressed.

VisionStorm

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2022, 12:43:36 PM »
If reproductive success really was such a dumb excuse it wouldn't have worked for various species in real life. Yet here we are, outliving every other species from the "Homo" line. Even physically stronger ones like Neanderthals, or larger ones like Denisovans.

Which is also why we are subservient to our reptilian overlords with their many eggs. Research into our past is not gonna get 100% precise results but im pretty sure there where more differences between us and neanderthals then pure birth rate.

Human birthrates are pretty piddly comparison to almost every other species on the planet (slower gestation, smaller litters). But we beat them out with our special powers. WE are the Elves of the world.

Unfortunately our information is limited in that regard, and we may never know for sure, since many factors could affect population decline. But findings suggest that Denisovans may have figured out craftsmanship and drilling technology before we did (and I also heard they may also have the oldest flutes found, meaning they may have figured out music as well, but couldn't find articles confirming that). So not only where they larger and stronger, but likely smarter as well. They were the actual Eves of our world.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cave-that-housed-neandertals-and-denisovans-challenges-view-of-cultural-evolution/

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2022, 12:58:08 PM »
They were the actual Eves of our world.

All highly debatable (Neanderthals are posited to be only slightly different then humans to the point its possible we just intermarried with them), but 'Hole in Pendant' isn't exactly 'Stronger, Faster, Immortal and know Magic'.

In addition, they are talking about a theoretical species that existed before homo-sapience and neanderthals even came to be by a degree of multiple hundreds of thousands of years. So we are talking 'Mystical Progenitor race' more then 'Elf'

VisionStorm

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2022, 01:10:14 PM »
They were the actual Eves of our world.

All highly debatable (Neanderthals are posited to be only slightly different then humans to the point its possible we just intermarried with them), but 'Hole in Pendant' isn't exactly 'Stronger, Faster, Immortal and know Magic'.

In addition, they are talking about a theoretical species that existed before homo-sapience and neanderthals even came to be by a degree of multiple hundreds of thousands of years. So we are talking 'Mystical Progenitor race' more then 'Elf'

Denisovans aren't merely theoretical, though, and they were contemporary to anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals as well. There is concrete evidence of their existence, as well as traces of their DNA in modern human populations. Its just that the evidence of them found so far is minimal.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2022, 01:13:22 PM »
Denisovans aren't merely theoretical, though, and they were contemporary to anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals as well.
Im not an evolution denier, I just mean that stuff this distant is up to being disproved or changed in the future as technology is changed around.
But back to the point: They where not competing alongside the somehow higher birthrated human and neanderthal at the same time.

VisionStorm

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2022, 02:18:48 PM »
Denisovans aren't merely theoretical, though, and they were contemporary to anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals as well.
Im not an evolution denier, I just mean that stuff this distant is up to being disproved or changed in the future as technology is changed around.
But back to the point: They where not competing alongside the somehow higher birthrated human and neanderthal at the same time.

It's hard to say for certain given the limited information we have, but the fact that there are modern day humans with traces of Denisovan and/or Neanderthal DNA at least suggests they must have lived alongside each other at one point.

Wrath of God

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2022, 06:05:34 AM »
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And elves aren't even drastically more powerful than humans in LotR.

I mean Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfindel are. Rest not so much, and growing weaker with each era as corruption of the world wages heavily on their shoulders.
Those that shall not escape to Aman, are doomed to become not more than Wraiths - and that's how Tolkien linked his elves to medieval faeries.

Quote
Which is also why we are subservient to our reptilian overlords with their many eggs. Research into our past is not gonna get 100% precise results but im pretty sure there where more differences between us and neanderthals then pure birth rate.

Human birthrates are pretty piddly comparison to almost every other species on the planet (slower gestation, smaller litters). But we beat them out with our special powers. WE are the Elves of the world.

True but it's all kinda relative.
We compare ourselves to other in our weight category, and even then it's possible some vermin could sucker punch us with some extreme breeding speed. Happens from time to time with locusts.


Quote
Unfortunately our information is limited in that regard, and we may never know for sure, since many factors could affect population decline. But findings suggest that Denisovans may have figured out craftsmanship and drilling technology before we did (and I also heard they may also have the oldest flutes found, meaning they may have figured out music as well, but couldn't find articles confirming that). So not only where they larger and stronger, but likely smarter as well. They were the actual Eves of our world.

Hard to say. We know preciously little about Denisovians, though most Denisovian-blooded population in the world New Guinea Papuans does not seems to be extremely blessed by this inheritance. They were more thick boned, so yeah stronger in terms of encumberance, but probably less agile (based on Neanderthals their closest kin, as I think we lack much bones of Denisovians aside of teeth) and slower. So while neanderthal could survive some harsh beating better than modern man, well when more modern weapons comes into play - would it matter much? And neanderthals were not-numerous really and living in smaller tribes than modern men.

In terms of technology let's remember in cold climate there are better chances for fossils and archeological remains. As modern men left Africa after common ancestor of Ns and Ds, lot's of his achievements probably rotted away faster in African climate.

And yes Denisovians definitely existed, as sister branch to Neanderthals. Both early split of Homo sapiens compared to like 95% of our other ancestry.

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With great vengeance and furious anger"


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AtomicPope

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2022, 07:49:54 AM »
Bard

Each of the four classes were designed to fill a vital role in the party.  Bards are not better than any of the primary four classes in their role but is second best, like a back-up singer.  The Bard shines brightest in a big group, which lends itself to their vital role as support.

Jam The MF

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Re: Feeling open minded.... Which "Other" Class fits in best with the Core 4?
« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2022, 02:05:00 PM »
Bard

Each of the four classes were designed to fill a vital role in the party.  Bards are not better than any of the primary four classes in their role but is second best, like a back-up singer.  The Bard shines brightest in a big group, which lends itself to their vital role as support.

Bards or Rangers probably best fit in, with the Core 4 classes.
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