Quote from: The Butcher;852031First of all, I'm not claiming the game's politics are "dangerous" or "insidious" —  I believe in free speech — and to be frank, I'm not sure anyone else's making this point.

You aren't and I haven't said that you are, but others have. One person even suggested they were going to or had changed the setting to something more palatable.

QuoteSecond, I don't think anyone's making a point about the fictional polities themselves, but rather how the authorial voice, under the veneer of an in-game narrator, presents them; frankly unsympathetic to some (hypercorps, Jovian Republic), giving others a wide berth (Autonomists, Brinkers, Scum) and fairly sympathetic to others (Barsoomians, Titanians).

I did not get that impression upon reading it. The setting is predicated on major incident that shapes people's attitudes and relations to existing power blocs.

If you're alluding to the attitude of the hypercorps and the infugees as a comment on wage slavery then my response is that wage slavery is a real thing that exists in the world today. Why would it change in a future that gave the hypercorps as they are unprecedented access to a pool of workers who had absolutely nothing to bargain with (disembodied digital entities). I don't really think that's pushing an agenda anymore than any other setting at all.

QuoteSome worldbuilding decisions, such as the Jovian Republic renaming Jupiter's satellites after cabinet members of the Dubya administration, cross frankly into satire.

Is that pushing an agenda?

QuoteCoupled with the positions the game's authors have demonstrated on Internet fora for some time now (well before the recent debacle), I think there are reasonable grounds to infer that their own political positions have definitely colored their presentation of Eclipse Phase's fictional universe.

If people are disrupting their forums then I don't see a problem with them taking action. If the reason for their disruptive behaviour is because they hold demonstrably stupid views then too bad. These people can't expect to be unchallenged and to be free from the consequences of espousing their beliefs in disrupting discussion.

QuoteLike I've mentioned above, it's not so much about "changing the setting" as it is about exploring it from different points of view. I've played a hell of a lot of games where PCs aren't necessarily good people or belong to wholesome organizations (VtM's Sabbat, anyone?), and I don't think there's a moral obligation to play the good guys every time.

Eclipse Phase's default premise is that you work for Firewall fighting existential threats. But there is nothing stopping you from not involving firewall. One can create an elite character just as one can be a scum character or a hypercorp agent.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852034I did not get that impression upon reading it.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852034Is that pushing an agenda?

Not the point I'm making. But do you honestly feel this is not a political statement?

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852034Eclipse Phase's default premise is that you work for Firewall fighting existential threats. But there is nothing stopping you from not involving firewall. One can create an elite character just as one can be a scum character or a hypercorp agent.

There is nothing in the Firewall write-up that says they don't recruit from a specific polity or faction. Nevertheless, I'd live to see a more in-depth treatment of Project Ozma.

Quote from: The Butcher;852079Not the point I'm making. But do you honestly feel this is not a political statement?



There is nothing in the Firewall write-up that says they don't recruit from a specific polity or faction. Nevertheless, I'd live to see a more in-depth treatment of Project Ozma.

It may be a political statement, but i don't see it as pushing an agenda, which is the issue at hand.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852192It may be a political statement, but i don't see it as pushing an agenda, which is the issue at hand.

And some people do. You know, it's really simple. It's an opinion. You can't discuss about someone's feelings. I don't know exactly who started talking about EP pushing a political agenda, but apparently some people don't like the game, because they feel it is pushing an agenda. Nothing you can do about it to take that feeling away.

Anyway, I think the average age around here is too high for people to get caught up in a flame war about a subject nobody cares about. It's a topic about transhuman scifi games. It's about comparing them, because there are multiple similar games around right now.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852234And some people do. You know, it's really simple. It's an opinion. You can't discuss about someone's feelings. I don't know exactly who started talking about EP pushing a political agenda, but apparently some people don't like the game, because they feel it is pushing an agenda. Nothing you can do about it to take that feeling away.

Truthiness über alles! :rolleyes:

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852234And some people do. You know, it's really simple. It's an opinion. You can't discuss about someone's feelings.

Evidently we can, and are.

QuoteI don't know exactly who started talking about EP pushing a political agenda, but apparently some people don't like the game, because they feel it is pushing an agenda. Nothing you can do about it to take that feeling away.

We can easily disabuse people of their feelings by showing them to be wrong. If they then persist in ignorance that's on them.

Feeling that something is the case isn't the same as showing it to be the case.

I don't even really care if some nutbag wants to believe that EP is written by people pushing an eganda. People believe all sorts of half baked crap. But if you are going to buy a game and then edit the setting because....leftists then quite honestly you're just being a dick.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852367Evidently we can, and are.

Well, if people give arguments about their opinion, it's still their opinion. If people say "NP is objectively better then EP, because of argument X" you can discuss about it. If people say "I don't like EP, because of argument X" then there is nothing to discuss about it. You can't take to reason away for not liking it. If people say "I don't like metal music, because I think it's noise" then you can give 100 arguments why it isn't noise, but they will still think it's noise. You can't argue about taste.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852367We can easily disabuse people of their feelings by showing them to be wrong. If they then persist in ignorance that's on them.

Feeling that something is the case isn't the same as showing it to be the case.

I don't even really care if some nutbag wants to believe that EP is written by people pushing an eganda. People believe all sorts of half baked crap. But if you are going to buy a game and then edit the setting because....leftists then quite honestly you're just being a dick.

Maybe they are right and you are wrong. Ever thought about that?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852377Well, if people give arguments about their opinion, it's still their opinion. If people say "NP is objectively better then EP, because of argument X" you can discuss about it. If people say "I don't like EP, because of argument X" then there is nothing to discuss about it. You can't take to reason away for not liking it. If people say "I don't like metal music, because I think it's noise" then you can give 100 arguments why it isn't noise, but they will still think it's noise. You can't argue about taste.




Maybe they are right and you are wrong. Ever thought about that?

Or we could provide evidence that the writers of EP are eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil!

To quote the legendary: "Obvious troll is obvious!"

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852496To quote the legendary: "Obvious troll is obvious!"

Really? this is how you people argue? When you can't fight your corner you call them a troll? Fuck off.

At a glance it looks like the writers of Eclipse Phase outside of the game have a particular agenda and do enforce it. And they can and have enforced it too heavy handedly. Which does not exactly speak well of them on that point. But then other publishers have done similar or worse things so really its nothing new.

But in the game text itself I am not seeing that. The setting covers a fair amount of stuff without pushing agendas. At least that is what I am seeing so far.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852496To quote the legendary: "Obvious troll is obvious!"

I called it.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852498Really? this is how you people argue? When you can't fight your corner you call them a troll? Fuck off.

There is no argument. I haven't read the book. I was just curious about what people thought about different transhuman scifi games. But you start to annoy me. You seem really intolerant to people who have different views.

I think the Butcher was the most nuanced on this topic, both addressing the political views of the writers in the book and out of the book AND addressing the different views presented in the book.

Your points are noted. Now back on topic.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852543I think the Butcher was the most nuanced on this topic, both addressing the political views of the writers in the book and out of the book AND addressing the different views presented in the book.

Your points are noted. Now back on topic.

A book you haven't read despite accusing me of being a troll.

Other than in the context of the setting political views are not put forward that I have noticed.

I don't see how those two things (reading the book/accusing troll) are related. I started this topic to become informed about these settings. I accuse you of being a troll, because of the following. You made your point. Your point is: "No way that Eclipse Phase is subjective in pushing a political agenda (very positive about progressive people/negative about conservative people). No way in the world that is possible and people who think it is are obviously very misguided and retarted and absolutely need convincing they are wrong on all accounts.

So if it makes you happy: "Oh my boy! I have been so wrong! You are right 100%. Eclipse Phase is absolutely not biased at all. It's the most objective book in the world. No bias to progressives. It just presents all kinds of different views. How could I been so misguided? People who believe EP is pushing a political agenda are so wrong. You were right all the time."

Happy now?