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What's your favorite transhuman (or posthuman) scifi rpg? And why?

Contenders will probably be Nova Praxis, Eclipse Phase and Mindjammer. I don't much about the genre, so I let you surprise me with your answers.

Of those three I have previously known only Eclipse Phase and it is my fav transhuman game. I even GMed it for a while.

Nova Praxis and Mindjammer are strickt no-no's for me, as I am allergic to anything powered by fate.

I've read GURPs Transhuman Space and it was a bit meh. I haven't followed Eclipse Phase since it's beginnings, but to my knowledge it has a metaplot, which threw me off as well. It could be ignored, but I seem to have a hard time getting anyone to play it, and also hard for me to vision any sort of overarching plot for the players. Firewall is kind of boring, but it is pretty much the only faction capable of sending PCs to all the cool far-reaches of the solar system and beyond.

I don't care much for the genre, but I have played in a couple Gurps Transhuman Space campaigns. They were entertaining, and were quite different in theme when compared with one another.

I played in a few sessions of "Eclipse Phase" but the GM substituted a lighter system, so I don't really have any familiarity with its system. I'm not familiar with MindJammer or Nova Praxis. Never even heard of the latter.

Definitely Nova Praxis for me. I don't care too much for FATE, but the Savage Worlds version is very good.

There are two things about NP that make it my favorite. First, right out of the box it provides the GM with a lot of different campaign styles. The basic campaign setup is for the PCs to be Shadowrun-style disposable agents working for the megacorporations (Houses) that run everything. But there are plenty of options besides that. I'm particularly intrigued by the possibilities to be had in a man vs machine campaign where humanity tries to retake Earth or the one where the group gets its own ship and a ton of resources to act as an elite band of troubleshooters taking care of all sorts of threats. I know this isn't unique to NP, but it handles these different options well and I like the setting it presents. It provides for a lot of different possibilities.

The other huge reason I prefer NP (and why I can't stand Eclipse Phase) is that NP isn't biased. It doesn't present one viewpoint as explicitly right. It's actually totally okay if you're not comfortable with the idea of switching bodies. Plus, there's an actual reason why people would do such a thing. In EP, everyone just commits suicide with a smile on their faces. NP at least puts forth plausible ideas for why people would be willing to walk into certain death, confident that they'd wake up when their backup was downloaded to a new body.

Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0.

The first that dealt with the topic, and one which will hold a special place in my heart.

Eclipse Phase. I like the system, though chargen takes a bit. The setting is wilder and weirder than GURPS Transhuman Space. The Eclipse Phase games I've played in were real mindfucks.

I've never ran either though I've borrowed elements of them both freely to use in my homebrew fantasy setting... lots of transhuman ideas already have a fantasy corollary.

I have to go with Blue Planet v2 on this one.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;849100Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0.

The first that dealt with the topic, and one which will hold a special place in my heart.

Another CP2020 fan right here.

I have transhuman settings. But the PCs usually are not part of that culture. Just passing through. The PCs are just aware that transhuman stuff is going on in the world they're on. Any game system can handle that much of it.

I didn't think that CP2020 would have been accepted in this category, but if it is, CP2020 all the way with SLA Industries coming a close second!

Quote from: Moracai;849241I didn't think that CP2020 would have been accepted in this category, but if it is, CP2020 all the way with SLA Industries coming a close second!

Yeah, I accept it. Transhuman scifi is so close to cyberpunk I can't really tell the difference anyway. Maybe cyberpunk focuses more on the megacorps and transhuman scifi is more navelgazing?

Quote from: Brand55;849092Definitely Nova Praxis for me. I don't care too much for FATE, but the Savage Worlds version is very good.

Yes, Nova Praxis has both a fate and a savage worlds version. Another good sw cyberpunk game is Interface Zero.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;849246Yeah, I accept it. Transhuman scifi is so close to cyberpunk I can't really tell the difference anyway. Maybe cyberpunk focuses more on the megacorps and transhuman scifi is more navelgazing?

Transhuman SF is afaic more a descendant of/heir to cyberpunk SF than anything, meaning the two are at least closely related.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;849246Yeah, I accept it. Transhuman scifi is so close to cyberpunk I can't really tell the difference anyway. Maybe cyberpunk focuses more on the megacorps and transhuman scifi is more navelgazing?

A person at TBP once put it in a way that nails it perfectly for me.  They are pretty much the same coin.

To paraphrase (whom I cannot remember the name, I'm so sorry):

"Transhumanism is about how technology will change us for the better.  Cyberpunk is how it won't."

Quote from: Christopher Brady;849263"Transhumanism is about how technology will change us for the better.  Cyberpunk is how it won't."

Exactly!:)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;849263"Transhumanism is about how technology will change us for the better.  Cyberpunk is how it won't."

Oh! So I guess that's why there was a bit of an uproar when GURPS Transhuman Space used dark and moody art for some its books... people were assuming it was an optimistic setting... like the tech-faithful I see on Youtube talking about how they're going to live forever.
Bah!
My attraction to such settings has been how weird and creepy they can be... lots of opportunities for body-horror and culture shock. Eclipse Phase seems to appreciate that angle somewhat. If anything I see it as potentially darker than cyberpunk.

I haven't found a need for a whole specialized rules set.

The "settings" packaged along with that are no bigger draw for me. Turning to further watered-down imitation of already diluted imitation of great SF seems pointless when the originals are readily available (indeed more so).

I don't want The Rapture of the Nerds or Simak's City reduced to several hundred pages of numbers and algorithms.

I hold that transhumanism is what happens after cyberpunk.  Almost all the best cyberpunk stories have transhuman elements, but the characters are fundamentally human, and at the end of those best cp stories, the world is transformed.  That transformation is the demarkation line when all the proto-transhuman elements mature.

[As a post script to that thought: I am starting to ponder the idea that Posthumanism may be a sort of cyclical turn back to the themes of Cyberpunk in a Transhuman setting. Of course, that would mean a true Posthuman story would potentially end with a world changing evolution to something very like evolved Transhumanism... which we currently have no word for and possibly no means of directly imagining what it would look like!]

Of course, I seem to hold an unpopular or at the very least unique take on that subject.

So if you include proto-transhuman games, than Cyberpunk 2020 is boss, though I've found a few good competitors out there. Oddly, though I think it personally inferior, Shadowrun may be quite a bit closer to Transhuman themes than CP2020.


For pure Transhuman games, I really only have Eclipse Phase, and I think it misfired on a lot of the cultural stuff, possibly due to real-world political baggage and 'message fiction' ideas.  GURPS Transhuman Space had a great rep in its day, but I was left cold by it.

Now: While I dislike the mechanics, and they weren't really designed for it, I think Numenera and The Strange are doing yeoman's work on transhuman thought.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;849079What's your favorite transhuman (or posthuman) scifi rpg? And why?

Cyberpunk 2020 and Cybergeneration because they dealt with the technology in a way that makes sense to me.

Every time I see the word transhuman, I tune out. From one too many encounters with transhumanism True Believers, I think that the word actually refers to a religion of technology which has the Singularity as a Rapture in which all of the faithful will have their minds downloaded into a machine so that they don't have to be human anymore.

I tend to play transhuman SF games as slightly more advanced cyberpunk.

My favorite is definitely Eclipse Phase. The system is weird in places (how hard would it be to split ego/mental and morph/physical attributes?) but, whatever the author's politics, the setting combines political upheaval, apocalyptic urgency and alien horror in very gameable ways. It rather reminds me of a White Wolf game.

I also love how it gives transhuman SF lit the same treatment D&D gave classic fantasy, i.e. steals ideas from all over, from Altered Carbon's body-swapping to Revelation Space's unfathomable cosmic threat.

Quote from: Brand55;849092Definitely Nova Praxis for me. I don't care too much for FATE, but the Savage Worlds version is very good.

I'm not really familiar with Nova Praxis, but the existence of a Savage World version piques my interest. What's the setting like?

Quote from: jeff37923;849308Every time I see the word transhuman, I tune out. From one too many encounters with transhumanism True Believers, I think that the word actually refers to a religion of technology which has the Singularity as a Rapture in which all of the faithful will have their minds downloaded into a machine so that they don't have to be human anymore.

Yeah, ditto. On TBP in particular it's basically a Cult.

Eclipse Phase is the easy winner here.

It's a great kitchen sink for transhuman SF and the system is great at handling all of the diverse requirements of the transhuman genre in a streamlined fashion.

My only quibble would be that I wish it was a little easier to swap morphs seamlessly. But I don't think there's any system that actually handles that well: You either pretend that a person's body is mechanically irrelevant or you have to make a lot of niggling changes to your character sheet.

The setting (which you can use or not use at your leisure) is also great: It finds ways to mix the kitchen sink together that allow you to either isolate the transhuman bits you like or clash them together in interesting ways.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;849263"Transhumanism is about how technology will change us for the better.  Cyberpunk is how it won't."

That doesn't seem like an accurate description of transhuman fiction. Most of it is pretty drenched in the dystopic.

Quote from: The Butcher;849346I'm not really familiar with Nova Praxis, but the existence of a Savage World version piques my interest. What's the setting like?

I'll start by quoting the official description:

QuoteNova Praxis is...

...a tabletop role-playing game featuring the Savage Worlds Role-Playing Game System, tailored specifically for Nova Praxis.

...compatible with, but does not require, the Savage Worlds Science Fiction Companion.

...a relatively "hard sci-fi" setting that takes place during the aftermath of a short-lived technological singularity.

...an exploration of the tropes of transhuman sci-fi: mind uploading, resleeving, artificial intelligence, and augmentation.

...an exploration of the societal impacts of a reputation-based post-scarcity economy.

...a game in which players play characters who slip between the cracks of civilization and perform jobs their patrons would rather keep off the books.

...a setting full of conflict. The Houses wage a secret Shadow War against each other, purist and transhuman ideologies clash violently, and apostates rebel against the oppression of the Coalition government.

...home to railguns, powered armor, starships, security drones, bipedal combat frames, swarms of nanomachines, kill-sats, and the horrors of accelerated evolution gone wrong.

There was a singularity event followed by a world war that caused humanity to abandon Earth, which is now in the hands of a self-replicating technophage swarm. Basically, the machines control the Earth, though mostly they stay deep under the ocean because of all the kill-sats and warships that have quarantined the planet and blast anything they can.

Humanity had already spread beyond Earth before the planet had to be abandoned, and in the current setting there are colonies throughout the solar system as well as on several planets many light years away. More planets are likely to be discovered, so one of the possible alternate campaign ideas I tossed around involves the party as explorers trying to find or explore a new planet for one of the Houses that run everything. Speaking of Houses...

When humanity fled, governments collapsed and corporations started joining together to fill the role. Six Houses were formed and they run most everything in the new Coalition government that was organized. Living as a member of one of those Houses is great in some respects. Most common things can be had for practically nothing thanks to compilers that turn raw material into finished goods, so people can sit at home and 'default' if they want. They live a life of relative luxury and never have to work. Most people don't do that, though, since the economy is based on reputation. Certain items can't be compiled if your rep is too low, and lots of places won't let you in if you don't have the rep, either. So most people still work.

Not everyone likes this, though. A not-insignificant percentage of the remaining population consists of apostates, people who don't belong to the Houses. Some are still loyal to the old governments, while others aren't okay with the 24/7 monitoring and lack of privacy that comes with living in the Coalition. Apostates get by with a more traditional economy based on gold since they don't have compilers to give them all their needs on command. Their lives are certainly harder, but many think the freedom is worth it.

The Houses use apostates as well as Coalition citizens in something called the Shadow War. Few know of it, but it's basically Shadowrun in space. Scientists are kidnapped, important personnel bribed or killed, and installations are broken into and developing technologies stolen or sabotaged. Taking part in the Shadow War is sort of the default campaign style, but it's hardly the only one.

Technology has taken leaps forward, of course. Virtualities exist where people can live in VR, and some people even exist as sims and spend their entire lives in such places. Most people use augmented reality in their day-to-day lives just to function. Drones do much of the fighting when the military needs to kill something, though it's not uncommon to see marines in their frames (mechs) when drones won't get the job done.

Sleeves are a big part of the setting, with (IIRC) about 30% of the human population having undergone apotheosis (the process that allows humans to transfer their consciousness into different sleeves). That's another of the big ongoing conflicts in the setting since plenty of people don't agree with the idea of people changing bodies on a whim. Most of the old religions are still around, and new ones have shown up as well. I was happy to see one in particular that many believed since it put forth the idea that the soul wasn't tied to one body and would migrate to the new sleeve.

Hacking is not a thing. At least, not as it exists in most games. You can use a computer called a CIST to try hacking, but it's far more efficient to let a savant do it. Savants are basically techno wizards, able to hack computers and control nanite swarms, among other things. They are the only "magical" character type in the setting. This also means the hacking mini-game present in games like Shadowrun isn't an issue.

And I could go on. There's lot more to talk about like AIs, the various conspiracy things going on behind the scenes, sensies, and the Scholae Palatinae, but this post is already way too long.

Schismatrix was my favorite cyberpunk book back in the Wayback. Mid '80s and as its story progresses it introduces lots of transhumanist elements... so I can definitely see TH as a progression of cyberpunk.

The thought of SLA Industries with added transhumanist bits kinda makes me dizzy.

I am currently running a really great Blue Planet campaign, and due to this campaign, my current favorite SF setting, is logically Blue Planet. That love for this setting might change again with a next, even better campaign, but for now, BP is pretty much excatly what I want for the genre-
There is a strong transhuman element to the setting (at least as far as my understanding of transhumanism reaches, which is admittedly quite superficial), but the technology in this field focuses more on genetic manipulation and biological transformations than on classic cybertechnology (which exists, but is just not as relevant). Also, uplifted, sapient dolphins, orcas and other small whales. That always seem appropriate for this kind of setting.

What I like about Blue Planet is that the technology is not advanced to the level that makes it difficult to relate to the presented society and that the whole technology has just made a massive jump forward, including the discovery of an immortality treatment, while the consequences of the technology are not yet completely understood.

It is also one of the few science fiction games that understands how huge a planet is and that adds planetary exploration, colonisation and growing economic and political rivalries to the mix. This allows to combine the City (there is only one) with the Frontier and the Wilderness as equally legitimate playgrounds.

(also, the rules are simple enough to be accessible for pretty much anyone without being condescending and the character creation offers enough guidance to support the creation of appropriate and competent characters.)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;849356That doesn't seem like an accurate description of transhuman fiction. Most of it is pretty drenched in the dystopic.

Then I would argue than most of it isn't truly Transhuman, but rather still tied to it's cyberpunk roots.  (Not making a definite claim here, just my perceptions.)  Because to me, Transhumanism is mostly about tone, I don't see how the tech assumption make it either/or.

What do you makes a transhuman setting different, then?  (Honest question, not looking for a right or wrong here, just want to know.)

Quote from: Spike;849287I hold that transhumanism is what happens after cyberpunk.  

I think this is true. I also read on reddit that Nova Praxis is about playing a transhuman character in a human society and Eclipse Phase is about playing a posthuman character in a transhuman society. So one step further. So you can say cyberpunk leads to transhumanism leads to posthumanism.

i quite like Mindjammer.  Curiously  I like the first Mindjammer book, which was way less complete, than the latter one. Just because the latter one made some definite moral statements about how the setting's transhumanist space empire worked that the first book left more ambiguous.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;849383I think this is true. I also read on reddit that Nova Praxis is about playing a transhuman character in a human society and Eclipse Phase is about playing a posthuman character in a transhuman society. So one step further. So you can say cyberpunk leads to transhumanism leads to posthumanism.

Posthuman sounds way cooler than transhuman.

Quote from: The Ent;850977Posthuman sounds way cooler than transhuman.

I mean posthuman as in playing a talking octopus or a swarm of nanobots. Transhuman are upgraded humans but still recognizable as humans. In Nova Praxis this is odd, because most humans are norms. In Eclipse Phase upgraded humans are the norm and the really weird ones are controversial. So the timeline moved on a little bit further in Eclipse Phase.

Anyway I think I should seperate cyberpunk from transhumanism. Cyberpunk seems to focus on external conflict. The megacorps are bad. Steal that vault, hack that databank, kill that NPC etc. Transhumanism is a bit more navelgazingly. Conflict is more internal. Do the benefits of genetics outweigh the drawbacks? It feels a bit White Wolfie to me. Very introspective. Interesting to make a book or movie about that subject, but not really RPG material for me.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;850984I mean posthuman as in playing a talking octopus or a swarm of nanobots. Transhuman are upgraded humans but still recognizable as humans. In Nova Praxis this is odd, because most humans are norms. In Eclipse Phase upgraded humans are the norm and the really weird ones are controversial. So the timeline moved on a little bit further in Eclipse Phase.

Ah I see. Thanx! :)

(my fave take on transhumanism remains the Leijiverse mind, I'm teh oldskool ;))

Quote from: jan paparazzi;850984I mean posthuman as in playing a talking octopus or a swarm of nanobots. Transhuman are upgraded humans but still recognizable as humans. In Nova Praxis this is odd, because most humans are norms. In Eclipse Phase upgraded humans are the norm and the really weird ones are controversial. So the timeline moved on a little bit further in Eclipse Phase.

Anyway I think I should seperate cyberpunk from transhumanism. Cyberpunk seems to focus on external conflict. The megacorps are bad. Steal that vault, hack that databank, kill that NPC etc. Transhumanism is a bit more navelgazingly. Conflict is more internal. Do the benefits of genetics outweigh the drawbacks? It feels a bit White Wolfie to me. Very introspective. Interesting to make a book or movie about that subject, but not really RPG material for me.

Well, a classic transhuman theme is that the definition of human has to be expanded to include clearly non-human minds, your uplifted octopi, your AI intelligences and the like.  This goes back at least as far as Neuromancer, with the AI's attempting to procreate and the recorded mind of a dead man giving the main character advice, and continues (again with Gibson) in the Hard Light trilogy when the Idoru steps out of every nano fabricator in the world, going from an imaginary computer program to an embodied person, forcing people to recognize what they had created.

Posthuman tends, from what I can tell, to focus on leaving humanity behind completely. This is the realm of Singularity intelligences, people turning into immortal balls of energy that exist on higher planes (A la the end of Babylon 5, among many many others), or even, for the more grotesque takes, the sort of inhumanity expressed in the Tetsuo: the Bodyhammer films, giving over to the Machine entirely, or the Instrumentality Project of Evangelion.

To take it back to Eclipse Phase, the Transhuman society we are presented is not too unfamiliar to us. They have cities, politicians, an economic system of sorts. People have lives and interests we can relate to, even if they treat their bodies the way most of us treat our clothes.

The Post Humans in the setting are alien to us. They build nothing, seem to have no cares but the next step of evolution. Their interactions with others is usually violent, forcible indoctrinations and the like.  In some cases the concept of self, of ego, seems to be eradicated in favor of a sort of collective gestalt whole. In others, individual perfection is sought to degrees that seem insane, but largely focused on the mind, since 'flesh' in the Transhuman world is so impermanent.

Cyberpunk is the one one of my players really liked for the transhuman aspect. Still have allmost no dealings with the game yet. Another one liked Justifiers alot.

Amazing Engine had the Chromosome book which was interesting, if oddly bland at the same time.

Rifts is my personal favorite. Played a dragon borg for a long and very weird campaign.

d20 Gamma World played up the trans-EVERYTHING aspect to the hilt. nanotech, biomods, mutations, gencoding, sexually transmitted characters, synth-life, soultech, etc.

Quote from: Moracai;849086Of those three I have previously known only Eclipse Phase and it is my fav transhuman game. I even GMed it for a while.

Nova Praxis and Mindjammer are strickt no-no's for me, as I am allergic to anything powered by fate.

I've read GURPs Transhuman Space and it was a bit meh. I haven't followed Eclipse Phase since it's beginnings, but to my knowledge it has a metaplot, which threw me off as well. It could be ignored, but I seem to have a hard time getting anyone to play it, and also hard for me to vision any sort of overarching plot for the players. Firewall is kind of boring, but it is pretty much the only faction capable of sending PCs to all the cool far-reaches of the solar system and beyond.

Nova Praxis and Mindjammer can be easily adapted to BRP if they trigger your RPG ideology political tripwires.

Eclipse Phase is excellent and I really want to try it with a live group, as it seems to use a BRP variant.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;851286Nova Praxis and Mindjammer can be easily adapted to BRP if they trigger your RPG ideology political tripwires.

Eclipse Phase is excellent and I really want to try it with a live group, as it seems to use a BRP variant.

First of all I was amazed that I got quoted after such longish time. Secondly they are not any ideological/political tripwires that have been triggered. Well, nothing has been triggered exactly. After such Fate hype, I really wanted to 'get' it and watched multiple actual play vids, and friends of mine have played it and some of them like it very much. Others don't, and me neither, as it is basically a resource management game that works through narrative that has way too many rules for it's own good. I liked FUDGE very much (before it was cool :p) and still do. Fate point economy just messes the beautiful minimalistic core beyond all recognition.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;851286Nova Praxis and Mindjammer can be easily adapted to BRP if they trigger your RPG ideology political tripwires.

So someone couldn't simply find the game not to their taste? Not liking Fate must be a political/ideological reaction?

As for BRP transhumanism... I bought River of Heaven hoping it would scratch that itch somewhat but it doesn't. In particular I don't like that they simply reformatted the magic rules to cover 'augmentation'... nor do I like that it falls back on the old 'cyberpsychosis' crutch to discourage getting too jacked-up on tech.
Eclipse Phase remains the closest thing to a BRP transhumanist scifi game.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;851286Nova Praxis and Mindjammer can be easily adapted to BRP if they trigger your RPG ideology political tripwires.

And this is why I tune out a lot of transhuman shit. They can't be allowed to be a game, they have to be a politicized ideologically correct indoctrination method instead.

Quote from: jeff37923;851331And this is why I tune out a lot of transhuman shit. They can't be allowed to be a game, they have to be a politicized ideologically correct indoctrination method instead.

I think he meant the rules (Fate), not the setting concepts... but I'm guessing you knew that.

Quote from: Simlasa;851332I think he meant the rules (Fate), not the setting concepts... but I'm guessing you knew that.

Nope. I have seen people declare that Eclipse Phase is a great game as long as you are liberal politically and that you should not play it if you are in any way a conservative. Not surprisingly, that was on TBP.

A game can be current political, but if it has to be to attract players then it really is not a successful game because it cannot stand on its own merits.

Quote from: jeff37923;851337Nope. I have seen people declare that Eclipse Phase is a great game as long as you are liberal politically and that you should not play it if you are in any way a conservative. Not surprisingly, that was on TBP.

A game can be current political, but if it has to be to attract players then it really is not a successful game because it cannot stand on its own merits.

It's not just TBP. The guys who made EP have outright said that if you aren't an ardent feminist opposing the evils of rape culture and the patriarchy, they don't want you playing their game.

Quote from: jeff37923;851337Nope. I have seen people declare that Eclipse Phase is a great game as long as you are liberal politically and that you should not play it if you are in any way a conservative.

I get that... the tech-faithful are pushing their agendas. It doesn't really bother me that much because even if they are present in the game, for me they're just another layer of horror... like playing in one of Bioshock's failed utopias.
 
I'm just saying that's NOT what Kaiu Keiichi was on about... unless I was the one misreading him.

Quote from: Brand55;851340It's not just TBP. The guys who made EP have outright said that if you aren't an ardent feminist opposing the evils of rape culture and the patriarchy, they don't want you playing their game.

Fuck me, it's worse than I thought.

Quote from: Brand55;851340It's not just TBP. The guys who made EP have outright said that if you aren't an ardent feminist opposing the evils of rape culture and the patriarchy, they don't want you playing their game.

Do you have some source for that... actual quotes?
Not that I doubt it... nor does it put me off the game. I've got lots of games and books written by people whose views I disagree with.

Quote from: Brand55;851340It's not just TBP. The guys who made EP have outright said that if you aren't an ardent feminist opposing the evils of rape culture and the patriarchy, they don't want you playing their game.

That just makes me want to play it even more, because I stand for all that shit, and I love doing the opposite of what I'm told.








... wait...


did I just fall for a brilliant marketing campaign????

Quote from: Simlasa;851342I'm just saying that's NOT what Kaiu Keiichi was on about... unless I was the one misreading him.

I may be wrong, but I think that is exactly what Kaiu Keiichi was on about.

Quote from: Simlasa;851351Do you have some source for that... actual quotes?
Not that I doubt it... nor does it put me off the game. I've got lots of games and books written by people whose views I disagree with.

Yes and no. If you want an outright statement of their political views, here is part of a post from their website:

QuoteEvery single one of us at Posthuman Studios stands in support of feminism's basic principle: treating women as people. As can be gleaned from our books, we're a fairly left-wing group, and we don't hide our politics or claim to be unbiased. We believe we live in a world where patriarchy and male privilege are real, ongoing problems, and equality for all people, regardless of sex, is a worthy goal.

http://eclipsephase.com/regarding-mras (http://eclipsephase.com/regarding-mras)
That particular post was the one where they fired all MRAs from being fans of their work. Then some people who weren't even MRAs but dared to say, "Y'know, this is a bit extreme," got banned, too. It was all part of a purge of their forums to kick out anyone who didn't share their politics (or didn't know enough to shut up and not let that fact slip).

Quote from: jeff37923;851354I may be wrong, but I think that is exactly what Kaiu Keiichi was on about.

Maybe you're right... I can be way to literal sometimes.

Quote from: Brand55;851357Yes and no. If you want an outright statement of their political views, here is part of a post from their website:

I've got no real issues with that quote as it is... though I suppose their feeling the need to say it implies that it extends farther than down the trench than I'm willing to follow.
Witch hunts on their forums is more worrisome.

I'll still play their game.

Quote from: Simlasa;851359I've got no real issues with that quote as it is... though I suppose their feeling the need to say it implies that it extends farther than down the trench than I'm willing to follow.
Witch hunts on their forums is more worrisome.

I'll still play their game.

Some people were dicks and deserved the bans they got. Others didn't. And even a few actually outed themselves as MRAs and said they were quitting since they weren't welcome anymore despite never causing problems. I'd guess that PS' forums today are probably at least as left-leaning as rpg.net, if not more so.

Yeah, I understand that. I'm actually not a huge fan of EP's system so I don't have to worry about it, but if I loved the game I'd play it anyway. I'm sure I have plenty of books on my shelf written by people I'd consider to be unworthy assholes in real life.

Quote from: Brand55;851362Yeah, I understand that. I'm actually not a huge fan of EP's system so I don't have to worry about it, but if I loved the game I'd play it anyway. I'm sure I have plenty of books on my shelf written by people I'd consider to be unworthy assholes in real life.

When I've really got a beef with someone who made a cool thing I just make sure none of my money goes to them... buying second hand and such. It's my long-standing policy with Games Workshop and Mongoose.

Quote from: Brand55;851362I'm actually not a huge fan of EP's system so I don't have to worry about it, but if I loved the game I'd play it anyway. I'm sure I have plenty of books on my shelf written by people I'd consider to be unworthy assholes in real life.

+1. Great setting; unremarkable, clunky system; shrill, annoying politics. I'll still play it, though.

Nova Praxis is a little too close to Eclipse Phase for my liking. Was it a case of Hodgkins parallel development?

Quote from: Brand55;851340It's not just TBP. The guys who made EP have outright said that if you aren't an ardent feminist opposing the evils of rape culture and the patriarchy, they don't want you playing their game.

Do you have a citation for that?

EDIT: so, no.

Quote from: Brand55;851357Yes and no. If you want an outright statement of their political views, here is part of a post from their website:

http://eclipsephase.com/regarding-mras (http://eclipsephase.com/regarding-mras)
That particular post was the one where they fired all MRAs from being fans of their work. Then some people who weren't even MRAs but dared to say, "Y'know, this is a bit extreme," got banned, too. It was all part of a purge of their forums to kick out anyone who didn't share their politics (or didn't know enough to shut up and not let that fact slip).

Oh fucking hell.

Please tell me I havent joined a forum where people actually believe in this Men's Right bollocks.

FFS.

Quote from: Simlasa;851351Do you have some source for that... actual quotes?
Not that I doubt it... nor does it put me off the game. I've got lots of games and books written by people whose views I disagree with.

I'd guess the system would put you off the game myself, but they have a free version to check out floating around somewhere. I did, and the preferred politics where some creepy shit. Me, I like knowing I own my own body. Kinda a core political issue to me. I'm not nearly so far left as to see communism to the point of bodies being community property being a good thing.

If anything I'm going to bet that particular angle brought in a crowd of people they didn't take the half second to see coming and resulted in the whole MRA debacle.

Quote from: The Butcher;851371+1. Great setting; unremarkable, clunky system; shrill, annoying politics. I'll still play it, though.

Ditto. Ran EP for over three years. Will probably start again once I get my shit together.

I love the setting; I just ignore the way-too-left stuff and portray the conservatives and corps as more reasonable people. No gaming police can make me play differently.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851504Nova Praxis is a little too close to Eclipse Phase for my liking. Was it a case of Hodgkins parallel development?

That's actually part of the selling point for me; I want to see if I can use the Savage Worlds version to derive SW-powered Eclipse Phase.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851508Please tell me I havent joined a forum where people actually believe in this Men's Right bollocks.

Every village has its idiots, I'm afraid. #notallrpgsiteposters ;)

I have no reason to believe brand55 is a MRA, though. It's just part of our board culture (very much informed by droves of RPGnet refugees) to look askew on censorship. Even when the people getting censored are reproachable. And especially so when debate of the issue is instantly quashed; I can't speak for everyone but some of us feel bad ideas, under frank debate, will sink of their own accord.

Quote from: fellowhoodlum;851521I love the setting; I just ignore the way-too-left stuff and portray the conservatives and corps as more reasonable people. No gaming police can make me play differently.

Oh yeah. Unlike it seems to be the case with, say, Blue Rose over at the neighboring thread, you can strip away the political bias of the books and you're still left with a solid core of horrific transhuman SF. X-risks are everyone's business, after all. Though I'd love to see a Guide to the Technocracy-like treatment of Project Ozma.

Quote from: The Butcher;851532That's actually part of the selling point for me; I want to see if I can use the Savage Worlds version to derive SW-powered Eclipse Phase.

It could be done fairly easily. You'd want to nab some form of hacking rules, either from the SF Companion or perhaps Interface Zero, but it's certainly doable.

Quote from: The Butcher;851532I have no reason to believe brand55 is a MRA, though. It's just part of our board culture (very much informed by droves of RPGnet refugees) to look askew on censorship.

Very much this. I will say that I don't paint MRAs with the broad brush of evil that so many do because there are issues men face and it often seems like they're the only ones who really care, but I certainly don't think men are oppressed or anything similar.

I used that particular post because, frankly, it was the one I knew about off the top of my head and could grab in two seconds using Google. PS outright says they lean firmly left, believe in the partriarchy, and aren't unbiased. Then they tell people to get out regardless of whether or not those people have done anything disruptive at all. So, no, it's not precisely what I first stated, but it's pretty damn close. I guess I should have saved points at birth and picked up Eidetic Memory after all.

And, for the record, if tomorrow another company said feminists or Tea Party members weren't welcome on their board and shouldn't buy their product, I'd say that was just as stupid.

Quote from: Brand55;851538Very much this. I will say that I don't paint MRAs with the broad brush of evil that so many do because there are issues men face and it often seems like they're the only ones who really care, but I certainly don't think men are oppressed or anything similar.

From what I hear, most MRA's don't believe they're oppressed, they're just tired of being blamed for every single world ill that someone decided to yell at them for.  But that's off topic.

Then again, I try leave any personal political stance out of my games as best I can, perhaps that's why I prefer Cyberpunk for my Transhuman style of gaming?

Quote from: fellowhoodlum;851521Ditto. Ran EP for over three years. Will probably start again once I get my shit together.

I love the setting; I just ignore the way-too-left stuff and portray the conservatives and corps as more reasonable people. No gaming police can make me play differently.

Why would you do this? You complain about political bias and then proceed to resolve that by applying...political bias?

Quote from: The Butcher;851532That's actually part of the selling point for me; I want to see if I can use the Savage Worlds version to derive SW-powered Eclipse Phase.


 
Every village has its idiots, I'm afraid. #notallrpgsiteposters ;)

I have no reason to believe brand55 is a MRA, though. It's just part of our board culture (very much informed by droves of RPGnet refugees) to look askew on censorship. Even when the people getting censored are reproachable. And especially so when debate of the issue is instantly quashed; I can't speak for everyone but some of us feel bad ideas, under frank debate, will sink of their own accord.



Oh yeah. Unlike it seems to be the case with, say, Blue Rose over at the neighboring thread, you can strip away the political bias of the books and you're still left with a solid core of horrific transhuman SF. X-risks are everyone's business, after all. Though I'd love to see a Guide to the Technocracy-like treatment of Project Ozma.

Nova Praxis is very very close to EP in so many ideas that I'm surprised they didn't get sued! Had it come out first, with the same prodiuction values and not been saddled with Fate, it would be the better game. I like EP, but to say it's left leaning is bizarre.

MRA is the motherlode of bad ideas. I have no time for it, especially when people are going to strawman games and game designers.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851559I like EP, but to say it's left leaning is bizarre.

Care to elaborate? The authors seem fairly open about their biases.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851559MRA is the motherlode of bad ideas. I have no time for it, especially when people are going to strawman games and game designers.

In my admittedly limited experience, it's less "a bad idea" in and of itself, and more resentment borne out of relative ignorance. I feel many a worthy cause would benefit by cutting back on confrontation and going for clarification. Repeated and strident criticism without setting a context tends to make people shut down and dig in; five minutes of civilized conversation suffice for most honest people on this Earth to realize that it's all ultimately basic human decency. But that requires good faith and a bit of work from both parts. *shrug* The Internet, right?

Quote from: The Butcher;851584Care to elaborate? The authors seem fairly open about their biases.



In my admittedly limited experience, it's less "a bad idea" in and of itself, and more resentment borne out of relative ignorance. I feel many a worthy cause would benefit by cutting back on confrontation and going for clarification. Repeated and strident criticism without setting a context tends to make people shut down and dig in; five minutes of civilized conversation suffice for most honest people on this Earth to realize that it's all ultimately basic human decency. But that requires good faith and a bit of work from both parts. *shrug* The Internet, right?

Yeap.  The internet.  This HOBBY could use with less confrontation about anything and more conversation about it all.  We're playing make believe with funny-shaped and sometimes cubic, often plastic, little number generators.  We really need to just lighten up sometimes.

Quote from: The Butcher;851584I feel many a worthy cause would benefit by cutting back on confrontation and going for clarification. Repeated and strident criticism without setting a context tends to make people shut down and dig in; five minutes of civilized conversation suffice for most honest people on this Earth to realize that it's all ultimately basic human decency. But that requires good faith and a bit of work from both parts. *shrug* The Internet, right?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;851590Yeap.  The internet.  This HOBBY could use with less confrontation about anything and more conversation about it all.  We're playing make believe with funny-shaped and sometimes cubic, often plastic, little number generators.  We really need to just lighten up sometimes.

Flag on the play!

Using logic and common sense on theRPGSite!

10 yard penalty on both posters! First down!

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat.

Fuck off out of here if you don't like the place

Quote from: Christopher Brady;851590Yeap.  The internet.  This HOBBY could use with less confrontation about anything and more conversation about it all.  We're playing make believe with funny-shaped and sometimes cubic, often plastic, little number generators.  We really need to just lighten up sometimes.

You call my number generators little and funny-shaped one more time and you, sir, are going to make an enemy. They are quite sizable and of a physical structure that is most pleasing to the eye.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851555Why would you do this? You complain about political bias and then proceed to resolve that by applying...political bias?

I find some stuff in the books that just don't work for me so I leave those out, while others I change to suit the needs of game.  No such thing as an official EP canon anyway >.>

Quote from: Brand55;851627You call my number generators little and funny-shaped one more time and you, sir, are going to make an enemy. They are quite sizable and of a physical structure that is most pleasing to the eye.

The amount of dice I've bought and subsequently lost over the years because I love to just play with them, could literally fill half a ten by ten room.  I am under no illusion what they are, even if I can't stop collecting my pretties.  I love dice.

It's part of the reason why I don't like diceless, or one side only rolls.

Notice how the self appointed "swine-in-training" has left the thread after sparking the whole MRA/SJW debate with one offhanded comment. Could we just ditch this line of conversation? It isn't stimulative or productive at all...

Some comic book RPgs allow for some interesting transhuman concepts too.

Quote from: The Butcher;851584Care to elaborate? The authors seem fairly open about their biases.



In my admittedly limited experience, it's less "a bad idea" in and of itself, and more resentment borne out of relative ignorance. I feel many a worthy cause would benefit by cutting back on confrontation and going for clarification. Repeated and strident criticism without setting a context tends to make people shut down and dig in; five minutes of civilized conversation suffice for most honest people on this Earth to realize that it's all ultimately basic human decency. But that requires good faith and a bit of work from both parts. *shrug* The Internet, right?

Eclipse phase base lots of communities that S both left and right wing and beyond. I don't see any bias from the authors whatever their politics.

MRA is a bad idea because its based in bullshit and also hides a variety of unpleasantness. At least one of those aspects is always the case with any activist.

Quote from: Moracai;851686Notice how the self appointed "swine-in-training" has left the thread after sparking the whole MRA/SJW debate with one offhanded comment. Could we just ditch this line of conversation? It isn't stimulative or productive at all...

 what is a swine in training?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;851664The amount of dice I've bought and subsequently lost over the years because I love to just play with them, could literally fill half a ten by ten room.  I am under no illusion what they are, even if I can't stop collecting my pretties.  I love dice.

It's part of the reason why I don't like diceless, or one side only rolls.

Oh, no doubt. I actually couldn't run a diceless game for that reason; my group would revolt. I even have one player who insists on getting to use multiple dice, so even systems that rely on a single die are out.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851721what is a swine in training?

A dude that has the text "Swine in training" where you have the text "member". AKA this dude (http://www.therpgsite.com/member.php?u=3087).

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851720Eclipse phase base lots of communities that S both left and right wing and beyond. I don't see any bias from the authors whatever their politics.

The fact that they're pro-Internet Feminism, and refuse to see the validity of any other argument (and I mean any other) is bias enough for me.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851720MRA is a bad idea because its based in bullshit and also hides a variety of unpleasantness. At least one of those aspects is always the case with any activist.

Because we all known Feminism, especially the current kind, is nothing but fluffy and light.

There are extremists, bad apples and other silliness in all political groups.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;851757The fact that they're pro-Internet Feminism, and refuse to see the validity of any other argument (and I mean any other) is bias enough for me.



Because we all known Feminism, especially the current kind, is nothing but fluffy and light.

There are extremists, bad apples and other silliness in all political groups.

What on earth is 'internet feminism'? What other argument have they refused to see? Or are you referring to their rejection of MRA idiots from their boards whom they booted out because they were disruptive twats?

I mean really, is this the kind of discussion you want? This is the sort of reasoining I'd expect from a fucking creatard.

I've no idea what you're second sentence even means.

The people that wrote EP are not extremists. I think that's fairly clear: have they flown planes into buildings? Attacked people in the street? Bombed clinics? Threatening to blow up other places?

Quote from: Moracai;851756A dude that has the text "Swine in training" where you have the text "member". AKA this dude (http://www.therpgsite.com/member.php?u=3087).

I have no idea what you are wittering on about. Is this a roundabout way of accusing me of being a sock? Seriously, is that the road we're going down now?

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851773What on earth is 'internet feminism'? What other argument have they refused to see? Or are you referring to their rejection of MRA idiots from their boards whom they booted out because they were disruptive twats?

I mean really, is this the kind of discussion you want? This is the sort of reasoining I'd expect from a fucking creatard.

I've no idea what you're second sentence even means.

The people that wrote EP are not extremists. I think that's fairly clear: have they flown planes into buildings? Attacked people in the street? Bombed clinics? Threatening to blow up other places?

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851774I have no idea what you are wittering on about. Is this a roundabout way of accusing me of being a sock? Seriously, is that the road we're going down now?

You really are just here to troll, aren't you?

Why do you think I told him to kindly fuck off?

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851774I have no idea what you are wittering on about. Is this a roundabout way of accusing me of being a sock? Seriously, is that the road we're going down now?

No. Stop being a self-centered little bitch and take my words for what they are.

This one dude (not you) came into this thread and turned it into political shit that I don't care one whit about. I'm out of this thread because it has devolved into something I don't care about.

Quote from: Moracai;851827No. Stop being a self-centered little bitch and take my words for what they are.

This one dude (not you) came into this thread and turned it into political shit that I don't care one whit about. I'm out of this thread because it has devolved into something I don't care about.

MRA in anutshelll right there; whining little prick gets called out on his nonsense, flounces out. Bye then!

Quote from: jeff37923;851796You really are just here to troll, aren't you?

Because I asked someone to clarify what they meant when using buzz words that makes me a troll?

No, I bet it is because you don't like my politics and don't like someone calling then out as bullshit. You weren't bothered about discussing the politics involved before I  came out against MRA. So stop being a child about it.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851881Because I asked someone to clarify what they meant when using buzz words that makes me a troll?

No, I bet it is because you don't like my politics and don't like someone calling then out as bullshit. You weren't bothered about discussing the politics involved before I  came out against MRA. So stop being a child about it.

OH perfect, someone else who uses internet tactics to insight anger and irrational behaviour, by accusing people of things they aren't, and flaming others when they don't agree with them.

Why aren't you at TBP?  Too moderate for you?

Look, this thread is about Transhumanism in gaming and which game you like, so which one do you like?

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851881Because I asked someone to clarify what they meant when using buzz words that makes me a troll?

You aren't looking for clarity. You are being a troll. When someone calls you on your bullshit, you become very evasive, like you have no stance except to irritate people.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851881No, I bet it is because you don't like my politics and don't like someone calling then out as bullshit. You weren't bothered about discussing the politics involved before I  came out against MRA. So stop being a child about it.

Well, I don't like your politics because they don't exist. You are so wrapped up in feeling instead of thinking that you do not have anything coherent politically or otherwise.

So, if you stop being a child and come up with coherent statements on politics, maybe we could have a conversation. But you won't, because that is not why you are here. You are a troll whose only interest is stirring the shit.

EDIT: It is funny. Chris A Field has written a horrible module for his game that I am completely against, but the man himself has some respect from me because he has come here and explained his reasoning for the module to exist. I am not a fan of Stars Without Number, but the writer Kevin Crawford of Sine Nominae Publishing is a man I respect who has also come here and defended his product. Both of these men took a stance and communicated with the posters here. You have not, Intergalactic Threat. Thus you have earned through your trolling, only scorn and derision.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851774I have no idea what you are wittering on about. Is this a roundabout way of accusing me of being a sock? Seriously, is that the road we're going down now?

Are you genuinely dumb? He was simply referring to the fact that the other dude set "Swine in training" as his forum title, which normally defaults to "Junior Member", "Member", "Senior Member" etc. And he was pointing out how that other dude derailed the thread then disappeared.

And you managed to get offended by that... man. Stop looking for fights, because you'll find plenty here and they'll turn very vicious, very fast.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851720Eclipse phase base lots of communities that S both left and right wing and beyond. I don't see any bias from the authors whatever their politics.

A thing is defined by its own qualities and not by its fan community. Lord of the Rings might be popular at Stormfront but I wouldn't call it a Nazi text, know what I mean?

On an unrelated side note, you might want to stop calling everyone who disagrees with you "a MRA." I don't think you're deliberately trolling, because so far you've responded coherently to my posts, but this is just dumb and uncalled for and horribly whiny. If someone flings shit at you, do kindly fling it right back, but "waah waah MRA" is just a sorry exchange.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;851893OH perfect, someone else who uses internet tactics to insight anger and irrational behaviour, by accusing people of things they aren't, and flaming others when they don't agree with them.

Why aren't you at TBP?  Too moderate for you?

Look, this thread is about Transhumanism in gaming and which game you like, so which one do you like?

How have I incited anger and irrational behaviour? What do you mean by 'internet tactics'? Can't you people answer a straight question?

This thread began discussing the presence of MRA's before i commented. Didn't seem to bother you then.

Quote from: jeff37923;851901You aren't looking for clarity. You are being a troll. When someone calls you on your bullshit, you become very evasive, like you have no stance except to irritate people.

You haven't called me on anything and I haven't evaded anything. You are in no position to tell me what I think so don't bother.

If you're irritated, stop following stupid ideologies.

QuoteWell, I don't like your politics because they don't exist.

I've no idea what this means, of course they exist.

QuoteYou are so wrapped up in feeling instead of thinking that you do not have anything coherent politically or otherwise.

Nothing I have said is incoherent, prove otherwise.

QuoteSo, if you stop being a child and come up with coherent statements on politics, maybe we could have a conversation. But you won't, because that is not why you are here. You are a troll whose only interest is stirring the shit.

Again, name one thing that i've said that isn't coherent. If you can't understand or don't like it, that's your problem.

Quote from: Luca;851908Are you genuinely dumb?

No, are you?

QuoteHe was simply referring to the fact that the other dude set "Swine in training" as his forum title, which normally defaults to "Junior Member", "Member", "Senior Member" etc. And he was pointing out how that other dude derailed the thread then disappeared.

So? Why is any of that relevant? I have nbo idea who the 'other dude' is, nor do i care.

QuoteAnd you managed to get offended by that... man. Stop looking for fights, because you'll find plenty here and they'll turn very vicious, very fast.

I'm not offended by it at all, I simply asked for clarification which is something you people seem to find impossible.

Quote from: The Butcher;851920A thing is defined by its own qualities and not by its fan community. Lord of the Rings might be popular at Stormfront but I wouldn't call it a Nazi text, know what I mean?

I wasn't referring to the fan community. I simply asserted that the setting of the game features a variety of different communities, all with their own politics. The existence of so many different and differing communities is one of its defining features.

It doesn't make sense to me that a setting might include states with dodgy politics and that's a reason for some to reject the game. I don't agree with feudalism and monarchies. In fact the politics of Game of Thrones are thoroughly repugnant, does that mean I shouldn't be interested in it?

When people then argue to change the setting because of the existence of political structures they personally don't like I think they are massively missing the point. Would you change the setting of Star Wars because the Empire was an oppressive liberty crushing monarchy?

On an unrelated side note, you might want to stop calling everyone who disagrees with you "a MRA." I don't think you're deliberately trolling, because so far you've responded coherently to my posts, but this is just dumb and uncalled for and horribly whiny. If someone flings shit at you, do kindly fling it right back, but "waah waah MRA" is just a sorry exchange.[/QUOTE]

I haven't called everyone who disagrees with me a MRA.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851508Oh fucking hell.

Please tell me I havent joined a forum where people actually believe in this Men's Right bollocks.

FFS.

You, in post 53 of this thread.

Quote from: Intergalactic ThreatHow have I incited anger and irrational behaviour? What do you mean by 'internet tactics'? Can't you people answer a straight question?

This thread began discussing the presence of MRA's before i commented. Didn't seem to bother you then.

You, at the start of your latest wave of empty shit posts.



Ergo: You are a god damn liar

Now fuck off

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851928Nothing I have said is incoherent, prove otherwise.

Again, name one thing that i've said that isn't coherent. If you can't understand or don't like it, that's your problem.

How about this response when asked what country you are from?

Quote from: Intergalactic ThreatI'm from the United Kingdom States of Great Britainstralianada, specifically England Sector.

So, fuck off back to whatever basement you came from.

Quote from: jeff37923;851942How about this response when asked what country you are from?



So, fuck off back to whatever basement you came from.

How about you read the fucking response you quoted: specifically England sector.

How is that not clear? Know many places called England do you?

Quote from: Spike;851931You, in post 53 of this thread.


You, at the start of your latest wave of empty shit posts.

And what is mendacious about what you quoted?

Quote from: MrHurst;851519I'd guess the system would put you off the game myself, but they have a free version to check out floating around somewhere.

I've played the game and generally like the system. It's trying to depict some complex concepts at times so I'm fine with a bit of crunch.

QuoteMe, I like knowing I own my own body. Kinda a core political issue to me. I'm not nearly so far left as to see communism to the point of bodies being community property being a good thing.

In-game that stuff just adds to the horror... the games of EP I've played were creepy mindfucks and I enjoyed them. I didn't see the indentured servitude being presented as a 'good' thing... just a fact of the setting.

Quote from: MrHurst;851519I'd guess the system would put you off the game myself, but they have a free version to check out floating around somewhere. I did, and the preferred politics where some creepy shit. Me, I like knowing I own my own body. Kinda a core political issue to me. I'm not nearly so far left as to see communism to the point of bodies being community property being a good thing.

Justifiers, another transhuman themed RPG, had a similar premise of the PCs being owned by the corps, working towards buying off their indenture.

d20 GW was worse though, which isnt surprising as it was a White Wolf product.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851946And what is mendacious about what you quoted?

Aside from your utter lack of reading comprehension: you stated that you did not bring the topic of MRAs into the thread, whereas I demonstrated that in fact, you did.

Thus, you are a liar.

Now fuck off

And ... back to topic.

To Intergalactic Threat: I don't know Eclipse Phase personally. Let's just agree to disagree about wether the content is too left-leaning or not. Just give us your opinion about which game you like best or else leave it be.

Quote from: Spike;851988Aside from your utter lack of reading comprehension: you stated that you did not bring the topic of MRAs into the thread, whereas I demonstrated that in fact, you did.

Thus, you are a liar.

Now fuck off

Except I didn't as even the most cursory glance will tell you, you lazy minded twat.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;851996And ... back to topic.

To Intergalactic Threat: I don't know Eclipse Phase personally. Let's just agree to disagree about wether the content is too left-leaning or not. Just give us your opinion about which game you like best or else leave it be.

Well, let's not agree to just disagree because this is about an assertion that the people who wrote the game are trying to push an agenda, moreover that this agenda is somehow 'bad'. This seems to derive from the fact they booted out some troublemakers from their forum who were joined by a bunch of sympathetic idiots who flounced off because...oppression of MEN!

I find the idea that an RPG setting can be this dangerous to be quite insidious. Ecliupse phase, as i've said, contains a myriad of different and independent cultures, from the fascist to the anarchist, as well as capitalist and socialist. To infer from this that the publishers are pushing a negative agenda (that women should have rights! Oh the horror!) is bizarre and totally unproductive. So for that reason I can't agree to disagree. If you don't like the setting, that's entirely fine. But if one wants to portray it as the result of an ideological conspiracy they are going to need to prove that, and if true, prove why that ideology should be rejected. Claims from whiny cowards who hide their own nastiness behind the banner of MRA won't cut it.

EP is the only transhuman game I am familiar with.

OK, I've got Intergalactic Threat on Ignore, but I bet he wasn't reasonable to jan paparazzi and did not give his opinion on the game and instead gave some kind of anti-MRA pro-liberal politics screed.

Am I right?

On the off-chance you're not simply trolling...

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852012I find the idea that an RPG setting can be this dangerous to be quite insidious. Ecliupse phase, as i've said, contains a myriad of different and independent cultures, from the fascist to the anarchist, as well as capitalist and socialist. To infer from this that the publishers are pushing a negative agenda (that women should have rights! Oh the horror!) is bizarre and totally unproductive. So for that reason I can't agree to disagree.

So you've got no problems with Tournament of Rapists (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/155549/Tournament-of-Rapists?term=tournament+of+rapists), right?

What about "brilliant" stuff like FATAL and RAHoWa?

Quote from: Luca;852015On the off-chance you're not simply trolling...




So you've got no problems with Tournament of Rapists (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/155549/Tournament-of-Rapists?term=tournament+of+rapists), right?

What about "brilliant" stuff like FATAL and RAHoWa?

Are you asking me what I think, or are you telling me?

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852018Are you asking me what I think, or are you telling me?

There are question marks, so those are questions. You just stated that someone publishing an RPG where "x" happens can't be automatically seen as the author endorsing "x", and in fact such an assumption is insidious to make. So I was wondering if this applies to everything or just one side of the political spectrum, and/or if you draw a line and where that line is.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851930I wasn't referring to the fan community. I simply asserted that the setting of the game features a variety of different communities, all with their own politics. The existence of so many different and differing communities is one of its defining features.

It doesn't make sense to me that a setting might include states with dodgy politics and that's a reason for some to reject the game. I don't agree with feudalism and monarchies. In fact the politics of Game of Thrones are thoroughly repugnant, does that mean I shouldn't be interested in it?

First of all, I'm not claiming the game's politics are "dangerous" or "insidious" —  I believe in free speech — and to be frank, I'm not sure anyone else's making this point.

Second, I don't think anyone's making a point about the fictional polities themselves, but rather how the authorial voice, under the veneer of an in-game narrator, presents them; frankly unsympathetic to some (hypercorps, Jovian Republic), giving others a wide berth (Autonomists, Brinkers, Scum) and fairly sympathetic to others (Barsoomians, Titanians).

Some worldbuilding decisions, such as the Jovian Republic renaming Jupiter's satellites after cabinet members of the Dubya administration, cross frankly into satire.

Coupled with the positions the game's authors have demonstrated on Internet fora for some time now (well before the recent debacle), I think there are reasonable grounds to infer that their own political positions have definitely colored their presentation of Eclipse Phase's fictional universe.

Nevertheless, credit where credit is due: as you've mentioned, there's a good enough variety of polities, and a dangerous enough universe, that it's not too difficult to treat the presentation as the biased opinions of a fictional character, and play a loyal hypercorp employee or God-fearing Jovian who joins Firewall and works with other agents from cery different polities the better to fight Exsurgent breakouts and other X-risks.

Which, incidentally, is the point fellowhoodlum and I were making.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;851930When people then argue to change the setting because of the existence of political structures they personally don't like I think they are massively missing the point. Would you change the setting of Star Wars because the Empire was an oppressive liberty crushing monarchy?

Like I've mentioned above, it's not so much about "changing the setting" as it is about exploring it from different points of view. I've played a hell of a lot of games where PCs aren't necessarily good people or belong to wholesome organizations (VtM's Sabbat, anyone?), and I don't think there's a moral obligation to play the good guys every time.

I just wouldn't be caught dead playing certain particularly vile bad guys, like a rapist or a non-repentant Nazi. Some things I just won't go into.

Quote from: Luca;852030There are question marks, so those are questions. You just stated that someone publishing an RPG where "x" happens can't be automatically seen as the author endorsing "x", and in fact such an assumption is insidious to make. So I was wondering if this applies to everything or just one side of the political spectrum, and/or if you draw a line and where that line is.

Perhaps world your 'questions' a little less stridently so that the 'question' doesn't come across as an assumption of my position.

And, given the politics i've espoused thus far, asking me if I endorse something called 'Tournament of Rapists' (which I couldn't look up because DTRPG requires me to log in and change my filters which I suspect would be an endeavour not worthy of the outcome) is a pretty stupid place to start. If you honestly think there's any doubt whether I don't endorse 'Tournmanent of the - I can't even believe I'm typing such a phrase -Rapists' then really there's no point pursuing any kind of sensible discussion.

So, no, I do not support it. I don't even know what it is. I don't want to know what it is. There is, I suppose, a chance it could turn out to be something deeply clever, but I'm happy to remain ignorant.

I have no idea what the other two games are, nor do I care. Given that you've namechecked them along with Tournament of the rapists I'm guessing they are equally as ridiculous. So no I won't be wasting my time looking them up. If what you're really asking me is "do you like rape" then of course I fucking don't, what the fuck is wrong with you is my answer.

Quote from: The Butcher;852031First of all, I'm not claiming the game's politics are "dangerous" or "insidious" —  I believe in free speech — and to be frank, I'm not sure anyone else's making this point.

You aren't and I haven't said that you are, but others have. One person even suggested they were going to or had changed the setting to something more palatable.

QuoteSecond, I don't think anyone's making a point about the fictional polities themselves, but rather how the authorial voice, under the veneer of an in-game narrator, presents them; frankly unsympathetic to some (hypercorps, Jovian Republic), giving others a wide berth (Autonomists, Brinkers, Scum) and fairly sympathetic to others (Barsoomians, Titanians).

I did not get that impression upon reading it. The setting is predicated on major incident that shapes people's attitudes and relations to existing power blocs.

If you're alluding to the attitude of the hypercorps and the infugees as a comment on wage slavery then my response is that wage slavery is a real thing that exists in the world today. Why would it change in a future that gave the hypercorps as they are unprecedented access to a pool of workers who had absolutely nothing to bargain with (disembodied digital entities). I don't really think that's pushing an agenda anymore than any other setting at all.

QuoteSome worldbuilding decisions, such as the Jovian Republic renaming Jupiter's satellites after cabinet members of the Dubya administration, cross frankly into satire.

Is that pushing an agenda?

QuoteCoupled with the positions the game's authors have demonstrated on Internet fora for some time now (well before the recent debacle), I think there are reasonable grounds to infer that their own political positions have definitely colored their presentation of Eclipse Phase's fictional universe.

If people are disrupting their forums then I don't see a problem with them taking action. If the reason for their disruptive behaviour is because they hold demonstrably stupid views then too bad. These people can't expect to be unchallenged and to be free from the consequences of espousing their beliefs in disrupting discussion.

QuoteLike I've mentioned above, it's not so much about "changing the setting" as it is about exploring it from different points of view. I've played a hell of a lot of games where PCs aren't necessarily good people or belong to wholesome organizations (VtM's Sabbat, anyone?), and I don't think there's a moral obligation to play the good guys every time.

Eclipse Phase's default premise is that you work for Firewall fighting existential threats. But there is nothing stopping you from not involving firewall. One can create an elite character just as one can be a scum character or a hypercorp agent.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852034I did not get that impression upon reading it.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852034Is that pushing an agenda?

Not the point I'm making. But do you honestly feel this is not a political statement?

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852034Eclipse Phase's default premise is that you work for Firewall fighting existential threats. But there is nothing stopping you from not involving firewall. One can create an elite character just as one can be a scum character or a hypercorp agent.

There is nothing in the Firewall write-up that says they don't recruit from a specific polity or faction. Nevertheless, I'd live to see a more in-depth treatment of Project Ozma.

Quote from: The Butcher;852079Not the point I'm making. But do you honestly feel this is not a political statement?



There is nothing in the Firewall write-up that says they don't recruit from a specific polity or faction. Nevertheless, I'd live to see a more in-depth treatment of Project Ozma.

It may be a political statement, but i don't see it as pushing an agenda, which is the issue at hand.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852192It may be a political statement, but i don't see it as pushing an agenda, which is the issue at hand.

And some people do. You know, it's really simple. It's an opinion. You can't discuss about someone's feelings. I don't know exactly who started talking about EP pushing a political agenda, but apparently some people don't like the game, because they feel it is pushing an agenda. Nothing you can do about it to take that feeling away.

Anyway, I think the average age around here is too high for people to get caught up in a flame war about a subject nobody cares about. It's a topic about transhuman scifi games. It's about comparing them, because there are multiple similar games around right now.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852234And some people do. You know, it's really simple. It's an opinion. You can't discuss about someone's feelings. I don't know exactly who started talking about EP pushing a political agenda, but apparently some people don't like the game, because they feel it is pushing an agenda. Nothing you can do about it to take that feeling away.

Truthiness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness) über alles! :rolleyes:

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852234And some people do. You know, it's really simple. It's an opinion. You can't discuss about someone's feelings.

Evidently we can, and are.

QuoteI don't know exactly who started talking about EP pushing a political agenda, but apparently some people don't like the game, because they feel it is pushing an agenda. Nothing you can do about it to take that feeling away.

We can easily disabuse people of their feelings by showing them to be wrong. If they then persist in ignorance that's on them.

Feeling that something is the case isn't the same as showing it to be the case.

I don't even really care if some nutbag wants to believe that EP is written by people pushing an eganda. People believe all sorts of half baked crap. But if you are going to buy a game and then edit the setting because....leftists then quite honestly you're just being a dick.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852367Evidently we can, and are.

Well, if people give arguments about their opinion, it's still their opinion. If people say "NP is objectively better then EP, because of argument X" you can discuss about it. If people say "I don't like EP, because of argument X" then there is nothing to discuss about it. You can't take to reason away for not liking it. If people say "I don't like metal music, because I think it's noise" then you can give 100 arguments why it isn't noise, but they will still think it's noise. You can't argue about taste.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852367We can easily disabuse people of their feelings by showing them to be wrong. If they then persist in ignorance that's on them.

Feeling that something is the case isn't the same as showing it to be the case.

I don't even really care if some nutbag wants to believe that EP is written by people pushing an eganda. People believe all sorts of half baked crap. But if you are going to buy a game and then edit the setting because....leftists then quite honestly you're just being a dick.

Maybe they are right and you are wrong. Ever thought about that?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852377Well, if people give arguments about their opinion, it's still their opinion. If people say "NP is objectively better then EP, because of argument X" you can discuss about it. If people say "I don't like EP, because of argument X" then there is nothing to discuss about it. You can't take to reason away for not liking it. If people say "I don't like metal music, because I think it's noise" then you can give 100 arguments why it isn't noise, but they will still think it's noise. You can't argue about taste.




Maybe they are right and you are wrong. Ever thought about that?

Or we could provide evidence that the writers of EP are eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil!

To quote the legendary: "Obvious troll is obvious!"

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852496To quote the legendary: "Obvious troll is obvious!"

Really? this is how you people argue? When you can't fight your corner you call them a troll? Fuck off.

At a glance it looks like the writers of Eclipse Phase outside of the game have a particular agenda and do enforce it. And they can and have enforced it too heavy handedly. Which does not exactly speak well of them on that point. But then other publishers have done similar or worse things so really its nothing new.

But in the game text itself I am not seeing that. The setting covers a fair amount of stuff without pushing agendas. At least that is what I am seeing so far.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852496To quote the legendary: "Obvious troll is obvious!"

I called it.

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;852498Really? this is how you people argue? When you can't fight your corner you call them a troll? Fuck off.

There is no argument. I haven't read the book. I was just curious about what people thought about different transhuman scifi games. But you start to annoy me. You seem really intolerant to people who have different views.

I think the Butcher was the most nuanced on this topic, both addressing the political views of the writers in the book and out of the book AND addressing the different views presented in the book.

Your points are noted. Now back on topic.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;852543I think the Butcher was the most nuanced on this topic, both addressing the political views of the writers in the book and out of the book AND addressing the different views presented in the book.

Your points are noted. Now back on topic.

A book you haven't read despite accusing me of being a troll.

Other than in the context of the setting political views are not put forward that I have noticed.

I don't see how those two things (reading the book/accusing troll) are related. I started this topic to become informed about these settings. I accuse you of being a troll, because of the following. You made your point. Your point is: "No way that Eclipse Phase is subjective in pushing a political agenda (very positive about progressive people/negative about conservative people). No way in the world that is possible and people who think it is are obviously very misguided and retarted and absolutely need convincing they are wrong on all accounts.

So if it makes you happy: "Oh my boy! I have been so wrong! You are right 100%. Eclipse Phase is absolutely not biased at all. It's the most objective book in the world. No bias to progressives. It just presents all kinds of different views. How could I been so misguided? People who believe EP is pushing a political agenda are so wrong. You were right all the time."

Happy now?

Back on topic.

White Wolfs Aeon/Trinity RPG was an interesting take on the transhuman aspect as that was the whole thrust of the PCs as they were humans who had had psi powers awakened by a special process so as to combat the superheroes of the previous Aberrant RPG. Toss in a little biomodding as well.

I like Corporation RPGs (http://www.corpgame.com/) fluff.

I see it as some kind of midwaypoint between Cyberpunk 2020 and Eclipse Phase. It has geopolitically located megacorporations (kinda like Mutant Chronicles) and a multicorporate United Nations-like organization that is supervised (ruled?) by an artificial intelligence.

whoo. Totally forgot one.

Buck Rogers RPG from TSR. The whole setting premise was transhumans colonizing the solar system and then overthrowing the Earth government. Each planet having some adaptations to the terraformed environs or added animal genes to aid in adaption.

I rather liked Aeon/Trinity.  The system was super clunky, but its the White Wolf's one, so that was to be expected, however, the story and lore was much better than anything I had at the time.  I still have the original books.

Of the three, Aberrant had the cleanest playing system. Aeon/Trinity felt a little less refined. Which makes sense if it came out before Aberrant? I have the odd "black binder" version with the Trinity title