This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Favorite dice system?  (Read 3553 times)

Lunamancer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2021, 10:09:00 AM »
I didn't see a poll option so i'll just ask what your favorite dice system is:

d100/ percentile dice system.
d20.
3d6.
2d6.
Other.

I like percentile personally. Used it in dark heresy, call of cthulhu and if i get some players i'll use it in Eclipse Phase.

I've raised the point that while old school D&D is thought of as not having a unified mechanic, that it really does have just two mechanics. 1) Assign a probability and dice against it. 2) Roll on a matrix.

If I had to stick to just one die type, I prefer percentile for dicing against a probability since it just calls for articulating a percent chance of something happening. For checking a matrix, it doesn't matter too much, except if I will ultimately be using arithmetic as a shortcut in lieu of actually doing a table look up, I would prefer d20 as a good balance between graininess and easy maths.
That's my two cents anyway. Carry on, crawler.

Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito.

Charon's Little Helper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 689
Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2021, 11:16:53 AM »
Except we're not talking about unique rolls. We're talking about to hit rolls. They're not independent, they have a cumulative effect. And thus the end results approximates a bell curve.

Not really. To-hit rolls are generally just hit or miss (potentially with a crit option). Only two options - not 20, even if rolled on a 1d20. And across just 4-5 swings, there just aren't enough rolls to average out for a binary option.

And that doesn't even include that rolling hits early in the combat is more valuable - as it means you will likely take down foe(s) earlier and therefore take less damage.
It's true to hit rolls are binary, but they're also associated with damage rolls. And it's also true that successful hits are more important early in the combat (Lanchester's Laws; always reduce the number of enemies first), but that relates to other rolls as well, like surprise and initiative. The net effect over the course of a combat or adventure is what's important.

That only matters a lot if any given smaller chunk of rolls isn't potentially deadly. Law of large numbers doesn't apply if you don't survive long enough.

Now - I'm not saying that that's a bad thing - just that it's not a bell curve. There's an argument against bell curve - as the randomness allows for more excitement etc.

Thondor

  • Superhero
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
    • https://www.composedreamgames.com
Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2021, 11:24:25 AM »
I'm a pretty big fan of opposed d6 or d12 dice pools, with a success threshold and comparing highest die to opponents highest. This gives you degree of success, which works for damage, but also great for conditions that may be transient and easy to remove, or very difficult to overcome.

 It's fairly swingy while giving someone who has an extra die or two a big advantage, which fits how I want superhero fights to go. I usually use d12s when I run Planetary or Cosmic tier games, mostly just because.
Challenges aren't opposed (cause there is no opponent), they just require a number of basic successes to overcome.

This is the basics of how the "unleashed engine" that powers my Simple Superheroes game. I use a variant of it for a "Dungeons Unleashed" campaign I am running now, (d12s but fewer dice usually, and I'm more likely to adjust the success threshold).

Otherwise - d100 is intuitive and Diceless as in Amber is great, am I allowed to say that in a thread discussing dice mechanics :P ?


Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2021, 12:00:56 PM »
Except we're not talking about unique rolls. We're talking about to hit rolls. They're not independent, they have a cumulative effect. And thus the end results approximates a bell curve.

Not really. To-hit rolls are generally just hit or miss (potentially with a crit option). Only two options - not 20, even if rolled on a 1d20. And across just 4-5 swings, there just aren't enough rolls to average out for a binary option.

And that doesn't even include that rolling hits early in the combat is more valuable - as it means you will likely take down foe(s) earlier and therefore take less damage.
It's true to hit rolls are binary, but they're also associated with damage rolls. And it's also true that successful hits are more important early in the combat (Lanchester's Laws; always reduce the number of enemies first), but that relates to other rolls as well, like surprise and initiative. The net effect over the course of a combat or adventure is what's important.

That only matters a lot if any given smaller chunk of rolls isn't potentially deadly. Law of large numbers doesn't apply if you don't survive long enough.

Now - I'm not saying that that's a bad thing - just that it's not a bell curve. There's an argument against bell curve - as the randomness allows for more excitement etc.
That's why combat at 1st level is more swingy than combat at 2nd level, but the general principle still applies. Roll a bunch of dice at one time and add them up, and it'll approximate a bell curve. Similarly, roll a bunch of dice with linear distributions at different times, and as long as they're dependent, the dependent results will start to approximate a bell curve. The shape of the curve may be a mess, binary results are more like rolling a d2 even if a d20 is used, and if there is not enough time to make many rolls the curve may be pretty weak, but you're still creating a tendency, and one that more often than not will approximate a bell curve.

Jam The MF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2021, 12:56:34 PM »
This is probably one of the RPG topics I think about most often.

I used to go back and forth; between preferring D20 roll high, and D20 roll under ability scores.  Then 2d6 caught my eye, so now I toggle between 3 different possibilities.  It's been D20 Roll High here lately. 

Dice mechanics; are simply a way to estimate probabilities, and generate random results.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 12:41:51 PM by Jam The MF »
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Thondor

  • Superhero
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
    • https://www.composedreamgames.com
Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2021, 04:00:15 PM »
I've raised the point that while old school D&D is thought of as not having a unified mechanic, that it really does have just two mechanics. 1) Assign a probability and dice against it. 2) Roll on a matrix.

If I had to stick to just one die type, I prefer percentile for dicing against a probability since it just calls for articulating a percent chance of something happening. For checking a matrix, it doesn't matter too much, except if I will ultimately be using arithmetic as a shortcut in lieu of actually doing a table look up, I would prefer d20 as a good balance between graininess and easy maths.

This is a really good point. And I think it touches on our desire to "hack" or tweak systems. It's not really hacking if your system is 1) and we are just giving a different probability.

Lunamancer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2021, 05:46:24 PM »
I've raised the point that while old school D&D is thought of as not having a unified mechanic, that it really does have just two mechanics. 1) Assign a probability and dice against it. 2) Roll on a matrix.


This is a really good point. And I think it touches on our desire to "hack" or tweak systems. It's not really hacking if your system is 1) and we are just giving a different probability.

Even more so when you take a step back and look at the numbers AD&D 1E in particular does provide.

Take the 1 in 6 chance to find a secret door is the standard check for non-elves, for example. Doesn't that imply something about how difficult the secret door is to find? Almost all of the #1 type rules in 1E are just like that.

I think this is why I like 1E so much. It feels like it has such a strong, visceral spirit to it. And I think it's because the majority of the "rules" in 1E are actually more like world building. Compare this to, say, GURPS, where the basic mechanic is roll-under your character's skill. While the majority of the rules in GURPS (and the vast majority of RPGs) are obsessively describing the character. 1E is obsessively describing the fantasy world.

But to circle back to your point, yeah, I think most people would agree. Tweaking and/or homebrewing the game world--the monsters, the magic, and so on--is something GMs are expected to do, and is not really considered changing the rules. Well, what if most of the rules of the game really are just defining the game world?
That's my two cents anyway. Carry on, crawler.

Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito.

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 3326
Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2021, 06:12:14 PM »
If I had to stick to just one die type, I prefer percentile for dicing against a probability since it just calls for articulating a percent chance of something happening. For checking a matrix, it doesn't matter too much, except if I will ultimately be using arithmetic as a shortcut in lieu of actually doing a table look up, I would prefer d20 as a good balance between graininess and easy maths.
For me, the single die choice would be a d20 because;

A) It’s generally “good enough” at emulating a percentage to the degree most people are able to discern a difference (is there a difference between 78% and 80%? Yes. Enough of a difference for a GM adjudicating on the fly to pick either 75 or 80% practically every time? Not that I’ve seen).

B) it can also “close enough” to all the other dice in terms of odds... d4 and d10 precisely, everything else within 2.5% of actual (1-in-6 or 18+, 2-in-6 or 14+, etc.).

C) if you’re using modifiers the numbers are still mostly single/low double digit addition/subtraction so kids have an easier time with it.

D) Easy to roll multiple checks at once without needing to match dice afterwards (required for percentage dice, a 2d10, 3d6 or similar resolution systems).

My second choice would probably be d10 with smaller bonuses... less granular for emulation of other dice (within 5%) but smaller numbers which is useful for C and larger battles under D (which is why I like it for mecha combat games).

Jam The MF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2021, 06:54:56 PM »
There is something to be said for the almost worldwide availability of d6 dice.  It is the die of the common man.  It keeps things simple, and +1 on a d6 is really meaningful.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Jason Coplen

  • Meathead
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 668
  • OSR Junkie
    • Errrr....
Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2021, 08:15:05 PM »
I don’t think I have one. A single d20 for combat. Other than that I’m not picky. It’s in combat where I want the chaos a linear roll delivers. All IMO, of course.
Running: HarnMaster, Barbaric 2E!, and EABA.