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Author Topic: Favorite dice system?  (Read 3551 times)

Chris24601

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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2021, 02:13:44 PM »

D20’s work well for a combat heavy system with multi-turn resolutions because the multiple rolls will create their own bell curves, but the odds of individual rolls are easy for even casuals to grok.


Just a casual here...can you explain to me how linear d20 results turn into bell curves because you have multiple rounds?

EDIT: I should add, the reason I ask is I always assumed d20 remained linear.

I was just assuming he meant that if resolution requires many rolls, the overall results will tend to cluster toward the middle, just like a single roll with many dice. Not sure of the details of how the rolls are used though.
Pretty much what Trond said. If you view an overall battle as a single task, then unless the contest is over with a single die roll the results over the course of a battle and adventuring day will average out based on your level of ability.

Basically, you will have a bell-curved result of "damage dealt per round vs. a given AC" in D&D.

For example, you have a +5 to hit and deal 1d8+3 damage vs. some orcs with AC 17 and 12 hp each. Now, you could get lucky and roll a 11+ for every attack or get a critical that deals 12+ damage in single swing... or you could whiff three times in a row or roll 1's on damage die and have to whack one of the orcs three times to make them drop.

The results of each swing will vary greatly in outcome, but after a few dozen orcs you'll find that your overall results are that you need about four attacks to dispatch an orc.

Similarly, how often the orcs hit you and how much damage they do per hit will, over the course of many encounters, average out such that you can guess about how much damage you'll have taken after a fight with X orcs.

There will be variances... sometimes your dice are on fire and you drop them in two-thirds of the usual time... sometimes they're cold and it takes you twice as long as you'd think (meaning you take more damage in the meantime)... but overall you'll get a fairly bell-curved distribution of results for your combats with those orcs.

And that's why D&D's combat system, despite using a 1d20 instead of say, 3d6 that produces a bell curve all on its own, still feels okay and like its not a completely random distribution outcomes. Any one individual attack is, but you generally need many attacks to resolve things so overall the result is a bell curve distribution.

FingerRod

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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2021, 05:33:01 PM »
Okay, I understand what all of you are saying, but you are putting a lot of qualifiers in there. At the end of the day a d20 is not going to give you a bell distribution. Ever. The results of your rolls in a given evening do not cluster around 10/11 with a d20 like they would with 3d6.

1d20 is a linear distribution, 2d6 is a triangle distribution, and 3d6 is a really poor bell.

You can roll a d20 for one million straight rounds of combat (and yes some nights it feels like that) and you will have roughly the same number of 5s and 12s. If you roll a 3d6 one million times you will not have anywhere near the same number of 5s and 12s.

That said, what I really find interesting is your point about how it feels. I think there is something to that. There might also be something to the highs and lows one experiences with a long linear d20 versus a small triangular 2d6 or tall bell 3d6.

Zelen

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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2021, 07:39:14 PM »
Depends on the context. I like rolling more than once die at a time, it just feels more fun even if it's just two.

At the same time, it's mentally easier to roll a single die and repeat that. Rolling more dice means more mental calculations (generally).

A single die is also easier to calculate probabilities for, generally a good thing.

Personally I think a 2d10 sum + meet or beat target number strikes a good balance between all the concerns, although 3d6 is also pretty good and doesn't require special dice.


Zelen

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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2021, 07:41:46 PM »
That said, what I really find interesting is your point about how it feels. I think there is something to that. There might also be something to the highs and lows one experiences with a long linear d20 versus a small triangular 2d6 or tall bell 3d6.

The overall experience of success / failure gives you a bell curve.

I'd argue, however, that most combats don't go more than 4 rounds (at least, not in any meaningful sense). That's a poor sample for a curve.

Pat
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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2021, 07:43:24 PM »
That said, what I really find interesting is your point about how it feels. I think there is something to that. There might also be something to the highs and lows one experiences with a long linear d20 versus a small triangular 2d6 or tall bell 3d6.

The overall experience of success / failure gives you a bell curve.

I'd argue, however, that most combats don't go more than 4 rounds (at least, not in any meaningful sense). That's a poor sample for a curve.
If 3d6 approximates a bell curve, then so does 4d20.

Charon's Little Helper

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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2021, 08:20:43 PM »
Anything with a target number to roll equal to or over. I'm not a fan of roll-under systems, and dice pools are fine, but they tend to add complexity to the dice rolling itself rather than to the characters.

The system I'm working on has various dice used depending upon the weapon/ability being used. I like it because it gives different abilities different vibes & accuracies without any extra rules. (Ex: most swords are 3d6, while axes are 2d8 but do more damage / assault rifles are 2d10, while rocket launchers are a less accurate 2d6 along with more range penalties - but they do higher scaled damage to be a threat to mecha etc.)

That said, what I really find interesting is your point about how it feels. I think there is something to that. There might also be something to the highs and lows one experiences with a long linear d20 versus a small triangular 2d6 or tall bell 3d6.

The overall experience of success / failure gives you a bell curve.

I'd argue, however, that most combats don't go more than 4 rounds (at least, not in any meaningful sense). That's a poor sample for a curve.

The bell curve of 3d6/2d10/whatever doesn't really end up being different than a linear roll on any single roll if it's just hit/miss. But it can have an impact if the game has many situational modifiers that players can adjust tactically - such as range/cover/etc. If so - then gaining a bonus becomes more valuable around the top of the bell curve, while if you're already hitting on a 7+ with 3d6, it's hardly worth spending actions or resources for additional accuracy. With a 1d20, getting a +4 to accuracy when you're currently hitting on a 7+ is just as valuable as if you were hitting on a 15+.

But if there are no consistent ways for the players to gain such bonuses (or add defenses) on the fly, then you don't really get much out of bell curves vs. linear rolling.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 08:30:31 PM by Charon's Little Helper »

Zelen

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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2021, 10:40:57 PM »
That said, what I really find interesting is your point about how it feels. I think there is something to that. There might also be something to the highs and lows one experiences with a long linear d20 versus a small triangular 2d6 or tall bell 3d6.

The overall experience of success / failure gives you a bell curve.

I'd argue, however, that most combats don't go more than 4 rounds (at least, not in any meaningful sense). That's a poor sample for a curve.
If 3d6 approximates a bell curve, then so does 4d20.


The concept of the curve applies to the mathematical distribution of numbers. When we talk about the aggregate result of multiple unique rolls, we're generally talking about pass/fail. These aren't conceptually the same thing even though the numbers themselves often collapse down to pass/fail. As Charon's Little Helper points out, it can significantly impact value of modifiers to rolls.

Aglondir

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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2021, 10:41:30 PM »
My favorite dice system of all time is used in Cortex Classic, used in the Serenity and Battlestar Galactica games. Atts usually range d4 to d12, and skills usually range d4 to d12. The handling time is low, and it uses polyhedrals for something besides just damage.

(No, this is not the same as Savage Worlds, everyone asks that. No, this is not the system used in Leverage, Smallville, or Marvel. That's Cortex Plus, which I know little about.)



The Thing
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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2021, 11:05:37 PM »
That said, what I really find interesting is your point about how it feels. I think there is something to that. There might also be something to the highs and lows one experiences with a long linear d20 versus a small triangular 2d6 or tall bell 3d6.

The overall experience of success / failure gives you a bell curve.

I'd argue, however, that most combats don't go more than 4 rounds (at least, not in any meaningful sense). That's a poor sample for a curve.
If 3d6 approximates a bell curve, then so does 4d20.

is there actually a 4d20 system out there?  :o
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 12:17:17 AM by The Thing »

Bren

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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2021, 11:15:18 PM »
I don't think I can say that I have a favorite. Different dice systems do different things.

I like d100. The probabilities are read directly and easy to understand and it easily allows for critical (or fumble) probabilities that are less than 5%.

I like 2D6 + trait/skill like Barbarians of Lemuria. It is simple and fast to roll and it works very well with a roll an extra die and take the best (worst) two for an bonus (penalty) situation. Downsides, the probabilities are cannot be directly read nor simply calculated (some very elementary probability is needed) and the range for character progression is fairly limited. Of course one can use 2D10 instead of 2D6 to expand the range.

I like d20 with a roll under blackjack because it is a neat mechanic for handling opposed rolls. But d20 systems don't easily allow for critical and fumble probabilities of < 5% and the probabilities can't be directly read (though the calculation is elementary).

I like D6 systems like the old WEG Star Wars D6 system. It's simple to figure out what to roll. Difficulty levels are easy to work with and the system is designed for and works well for pulp adventure. And I like rolling buckets of dice. On the down side, probabilities are neither direct nor easily calculated, especially if the Wild Die is used.

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Pat
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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2021, 11:23:15 PM »
That said, what I really find interesting is your point about how it feels. I think there is something to that. There might also be something to the highs and lows one experiences with a long linear d20 versus a small triangular 2d6 or tall bell 3d6.

The overall experience of success / failure gives you a bell curve.

I'd argue, however, that most combats don't go more than 4 rounds (at least, not in any meaningful sense). That's a poor sample for a curve.
If 3d6 approximates a bell curve, then so does 4d20.


The concept of the curve applies to the mathematical distribution of numbers. When we talk about the aggregate result of multiple unique rolls, we're generally talking about pass/fail. These aren't conceptually the same thing even though the numbers themselves often collapse down to pass/fail. As Charon's Little Helper points out, it can significantly impact value of modifiers to rolls.
Except we're not talking about unique rolls. We're talking about to hit rolls. They're not independent, they have a cumulative effect. And thus the end results approximates a bell curve.

Wntrlnd

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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2021, 03:28:17 AM »
Depends on the context. I like rolling more than once die at a time, it just feels more fun even if it's just two.

At the same time, it's mentally easier to roll a single die and repeat that. Rolling more dice means more mental calculations (generally).

A single die is also easier to calculate probabilities for, generally a good thing.

Personally I think a 2d10 sum + meet or beat target number strikes a good balance between all the concerns, although 3d6 is also pretty good and doesn't require special dice.

Yeah. 2d10 for me too. You get to stay in the same range as d20 games, which is familiar territory.

I like the distribution towards the middle without it being to bell-curve like the 3d6.

I also added explosive dice on rolling doubles except double 1's (which is a fumble) so you always at least have small chance to succeed with difficulties that are to high otherwise.

Charon's Little Helper

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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2021, 08:04:31 AM »
Except we're not talking about unique rolls. We're talking about to hit rolls. They're not independent, they have a cumulative effect. And thus the end results approximates a bell curve.

Not really. To-hit rolls are generally just hit or miss (potentially with a crit option). Only two options - not 20, even if rolled on a 1d20. And across just 4-5 swings, there just aren't enough rolls to average out for a binary option.

And that doesn't even include that rolling hits early in the combat is more valuable - as it means you will likely take down foe(s) earlier and therefore take less damage.

Pat
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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2021, 08:11:21 AM »
Except we're not talking about unique rolls. We're talking about to hit rolls. They're not independent, they have a cumulative effect. And thus the end results approximates a bell curve.

Not really. To-hit rolls are generally just hit or miss (potentially with a crit option). Only two options - not 20, even if rolled on a 1d20. And across just 4-5 swings, there just aren't enough rolls to average out for a binary option.

And that doesn't even include that rolling hits early in the combat is more valuable - as it means you will likely take down foe(s) earlier and therefore take less damage.
It's true to hit rolls are binary, but they're also associated with damage rolls. And it's also true that successful hits are more important early in the combat (Lanchester's Laws; always reduce the number of enemies first), but that relates to other rolls as well, like surprise and initiative. The net effect over the course of a combat or adventure is what's important.

JeffB

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Re: Favorite dice system?
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2021, 09:51:55 AM »
DW's 2d6 system, and (EDIT) FFG's Star Wars' Dice system for sure- I prefer a system that give more than simple pass/fail.

I also like Fantasy Age's 3d6/stunts.

BRP/RQ's D100 is still probably the cleanest most concise system that not only works for hardcore gamers, but is also easiest to explain to new people- "you have skills,  and you have a X chance of succeeding".  People have a harder time finding the skill they need on the character sheet than learning how the dice mechanics work. Perrin, et al = game design genius.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 09:55:42 AM by JeffB »