As I wind down writing a mega-dungeon for Castles & Crusades in my home brew setting, I'm sketching out ideas for (yet another) apocalyptic campaign/adventure path that ties into the overarching Legendarium for my setting.  While I do produce plenty of stand-alone adventures, the longer campaign-type stuff tend to fit into the larger legends and the everlasting struggle between the forces of good and evil for the souls of the world.  So I'm constantly revising the overall history to incorporate these new events.  In this sense I'm basically imitating Tolkien's approach to The Silmarillion.  In my case the major events are often linked to the desire to bring "Dark Heaven" (shamelessly cribbed from the Reaper miniatures line) to the world.  Various evil entities start the process, the Reapers of the Apocalypse appear, and the heroes must confront the arch-villain.  Sometimes things are more tangential to the cycle, but that's the big meta-plot.  And each attempted apocalypse has different effects, like changing how magic works or whatever.  That then changes the tone of my games depending upon where I situate adventures in the chronology.  In later eras magic is more dangerous and unpredictable so certain societies and peoples develop black powder weapons for example.

So do you have some kind of meta-plot or Legendarium that occurs across campaigns?  If so, how do you convey that?

My campaign setting is based on Greyhawk (1E) canon, with some Gord the Rogue thrown in.  Greyhawk Wars haven't happened, as Iuz has recently been freed and is consolidating his power.

Not really. There's psuedo-religious history whose writings are basically pyramid texts/fragments dating back 3-5k years and a couple of contemporarneous oral histories from cultures of that time that were eventually written down. All of it predates an equivalent Bronze Age collapse and so is basically Age of Heroes myth and legend.

Actual history with archeological evidence, biographies and witness accounts only goes back reliably 1-2 centuries and is decent back about 500-600 years. That's pretty much where my adventures fall for references.

I'm going to step a bit into what I'm sure for some is heresy... but I don't think the decision by Tolkein's son to try and assemble JRRT's various private notes written over a lifetime of change and growth into some singular cohesive text has done anything but damage the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

Stories have weight because they exist in a finite place and time.

The Legendarium reeks of the sort of meta narrative taken in DC comics with projecys like "Zero Hour" and "Crisis of Final Infinite Crises" where somehow every version must be true and current navel gazed upon for how Superman now is the Superman then and will be the Superman of 1000 years from now.

Superman should have married Lois c. 1945 or so, finished his run in 1955-8... maybe gotten a sequel or two starring his son or grandson. The endless hero has fucked up so much modern storytelling it deserves its own section of crimes against humanity (see also season six+ Supernatural when the original plan was 5 years and a definite ending... see the inability to let the MCU be over.

That's the Legendarium to me. Chris Tolkien didn't want two timeless classics to be the end of the golden goose so he wouldn't let it.

I would think the fans nonstop desire for more material would have as much to do with it as Christopher Tolkien's desire to keep the money rolling.  Just my opinion though. 

Quote from: Persimmon on December 05, 2021, 12:38:52 PM
So do you have some kind of meta-plot or Legendarium that occurs across campaigns? 

Hmm. No. I definitely have call-outs to other campaigns (current & previous) as 'Easter Eggs' for players who pay attention. I guess some themes can be found across campaigns, eg with Cthulu stuff everywhere these days you'll likely see Great Old One cults in many fantasy campaigns. But I wouldn't say there was a meta-narrative.

My current 1359-1360 DR Forgotten Realms (Bloodstone Lands) game is only loosely connected to my 2011-2016 FR (Loudwater) game set 1479-1485 DR, indeed with parrallel versions of some NPCs it's pretty clear they are alternate worlds, not the same world at different times. Orcus was killed in 1485 DR in the old campaign, the 1359 DR campaign started with him dead.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 05, 2021, 03:51:21 PM
I'm going to step a bit into what I'm sure for some is heresy... but I don't think the decision by Tolkein's son to try and assemble JRRT's various private notes written over a lifetime of change and growth into some singular cohesive text has done anything but damage the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

Stories have weight because they exist in a finite place and time.

The Legendarium reeks of the sort of meta narrative taken in DC comics with projecys like "Zero Hour" and "Crisis of Final Infinite Crises" where somehow every version must be true and current navel gazed upon for how Superman now is the Superman then and will be the Superman of 1000 years from now.

Superman should have married Lois c. 1945 or so, finished his run in 1955-8... maybe gotten a sequel or two starring his son or grandson. The endless hero has fucked up so much modern storytelling it deserves its own section of crimes against humanity (see also season six+ Supernatural when the original plan was 5 years and a definite ending... see the inability to let the MCU be over.

That's the Legendarium to me. Chris Tolkien didn't want two timeless classics to be the end of the golden goose so he wouldn't let it.

Not sure about the finances were and how that impacted the decision, but frankly I don't care.  I think the whole history of Middle Earth is inherently interesting for hardcore fanboys like me and the average Hobbit/LOTR fan probably barely knows they exist.  I'm currently re-reading The Books of Lost Tales after having re-read or read a bunch of the other posthumous works and enjoying it more now than before because I have a firmer grasp on how it all fits together.  Fun to see what changed and what stayed the same like the Sauron prototype being an evil cat, who incidentally pops up in a MERP module from the 1990s.

But I do think that the Legendarium thing can get into overkill as with Robert Jordan's awful Wheel of Time books.  At least we can say Tolkien himself didn't publish all these fragments despite their literary interest for some of us.

And so far as my own Legendarium is concerned it's much more for me than my players, who don't care much. I throw some Easter eggs in but since I'm dealing with different players these days anyhow, that doesn't matter much.  And as a historian I love having that backstory there.  I think that depth is what I liked most about Tolkien to begin with.

Quote
I'm going to step a bit into what I'm sure for some is heresy... but I don't think the decision by Tolkein's son to try and assemble JRRT's various private notes written over a lifetime of change and growth into some singular cohesive text has done anything but damage the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

Stories have weight because they exist in a finite place and time.

The Legendarium reeks of the sort of meta narrative taken in DC comics with projecys like "Zero Hour" and "Crisis of Final Infinite Crises" where somehow every version must be true and current navel gazed upon for how Superman now is the Superman then and will be the Superman of 1000 years from now.

Superman should have married Lois c. 1945 or so, finished his run in 1955-8... maybe gotten a sequel or two starring his son or grandson. The endless hero has fucked up so much modern storytelling it deserves its own section of crimes against humanity (see also season six+ Supernatural when the original plan was 5 years and a definite ending... see the inability to let the MCU be over.

That's the Legendarium to me. Chris Tolkien didn't want two timeless classics to be the end of the golden goose so he wouldn't let it.

The difference is - Comic Books Infinite Endless Loop of Diminishing Returns are mostly result of corporations trying to milk every dime of their trademarks, while people being unhealthy parasocially bounded to certain logos.

With Tolkien situation is quite different - it's First Age that's his Magnum Opus, and Lord of the Rings is more like this much less epic epilogue. Coda.
In this way it's fitting First Age is described mostly as Myth whilte Third mostly as way more modern novel. (I'm not even mentioning Hobbit where Tolkien realised it's gonna be story from his Legendarium probably 50% into writing it )

And definitely Tolkien was working to finish this myth and publish it, and he frequently discussed it with fans. And if that dimnishes LOTR? Well good. I'll gonna pay 30 rings of power for once glince of Silmaril But then I don't think it really diminish. And it gives context well needed and working. (Probably my favourite worldbuilding lore of Middle-Earth came from Tolkien letters after all).

If I wanted to have example of someone milking his father's work beyond any reason and respect - it's Brian Herbert, because we all know Butlerian Jihad is just his own invention probably copied from Warhammer for all we know.

QuoteI would think the fans nonstop desire for more material would have as much to do with it as Christopher Tolkien's desire to keep the money rolling.  Just my opinion though.

Thing is Tolkien was frequently discussing deeplore of Middle Earth with his fans when he was alive. He was certainly not one to keep it in mystery. For him Lord of the Rings was just small aspect of his overall life's work. Quite opposite to what's done to superheroes.

QuoteBut I do think that the Legendarium thing can get into overkill as with Robert Jordan's awful Wheel of Time books.  At least we can say Tolkien himself didn't publish all these fragments despite their literary interest for some of us.

I'd say this whole worldbook for Wheel of Time was way smaller sin compared what to happened to main saga after like book 5 or 6 for next few tomes. You don't need deep legend lore to just expand those stories beyond reason.