Quote from: tanaka84;965067Fix: Check out the book of Hanz, the guy did Evil Hat a HUGE favor, that book is gold.

Thanks!

Quote from: CRKrueger;965347Does Create Advantage create an Aspect that hangs around a while, or does it apply for that round only?

The question makes a few presumptions that are kind of wrong - mainly, that it's the Create Advantage action that determines how long an aspect sticks around.

So you don't Create Advantage.  You do something.  You start to provide covering fire, or you trip someone, or you gather magical energy, or you stick someone in a web, or climb on some pipes above the bad guys, or whatever.

Since it's not obvious that you actually succeed at those things, we go to the rules, and use them to figure out what happens.  In this case, those are probably Create Advantage actions (depending on the situation).

So, if you succeed, then you actually do the thing.  Like, in "the world", you're actually doing the thing - laying down a hail of fire, or gathering magical energy, or knocking someone on his butt or whatever.

We make a note of that fact with an aspect, so that we can refer to it later, and it gives us a few mechanical hooks.

Now, if you do something that means that, "in the world", that aspect is no longer true?  Then it's no longer true, and goes away.  If you're providing Covering Fire, and you walk away, you're not providing Covering Fire any more, and so the aspect goes away.  If you're Above the Bad Guys, and you drop down for some reason, you're not above them any more and the aspect disappears.

But if someone gets knocked down and is On The Ground, or is Stuck In A Web, then those things will be true until somebody does something to make them not true.

Quote from: KrakaJak;965385I can see why some players wouldn't love it though.  The results of an action can feel like a retroactive continuity as Aspects can be used after rolls to sort of "negotiate" the outcome.

This is where the ellipsis trick comes into play.  I don't retcon.

GM: "Okay, looks like you didn't quite parry in time and the orc's blade is coming straight at you..."
Player: "Um, as a Renowned Orc Hunter I, of course, expect this and am already in the middle of my dodge to the side."
GM: "Cool.  The orc's sword slices into the air where you used to be."

Quote from: KrakaJak;965385It's also not great if you are into tactics/strategy. Hiding behind a wall for cover doesn't matter unless you've spent the Fate point to make it relevant.

Not so much.

If you're behind a wall, and the wall is big enough and sturdy enough that you can't logically be hit behind it, then you're not going to get hit (of course, in that situation, you're not going to be shooting back because you're stuck behind a wall).  On the other hand, if it's not quite that good of cover, or you're sticking your head out periodically, you might get some Passive Opposition from it.

If you've got a Broken Leg:

Things might be harder to do with it - this is Passive Opposition and takes no Fate Points.
Your leg might give out at an inopportune moment - this is an Invoke, and takes a Fate Point.
You can't really climb a tree - this is just truth, and takes no Fate Points.
The thing you need, of course, is at the top of a tree - this is a Compel, and takes a Fate Point.

Quote from: Brand55;965411I think this is ultimately what sours the game for me. It's not even about tactics, it's about realism. I have similar problems with games like Cortex Plus. There are some solid settings for Fate out there, but I'd honestly much prefer stripping out the Aspects (or stripping them back like in the first edition of Icons) and running such games in a more traditional manner.

This is a common, but generally false, misconception.  It was pretty well confirmed by the Evil Hat folks that they amped up "Aspects are True" in Fate Core because, previously, they didn't think they needed to tell people that they can't climb a ladder with a broken leg.

Quote from: robiswrong;965431This is a common, but generally false, misconception.  It was pretty well confirmed by the Evil Hat folks that they amped up "Aspects are True" in Fate Core because, previously, they didn't think they needed to tell people that they can't climb a ladder with a broken leg.

It's not a misconception at all. The problem is in how the game ties invocations and Fate Point expenditure to bonuses/re-rolls. As long as players are having to rely on burning FP to take advantage of situations that really should be giving them a constant advantage (such as attacking a disarmed opponent or ganging up), then any sense of realism is going to suffer mightily for those who care about such things.

Quote from: Brand55;965433It's not a misconception at all. The problem is in how the game ties invocations and Fate Point expenditure to bonuses/re-rolls. As long as players are having to rely on burning FP to take advantage of situations that really should be giving them a constant advantage (such as attacking a disarmed opponent or ganging up), then any sense of realism is going to suffer mightily for those who care about such things.

I listed above ways that would have a constant impact. That would seem to solve your problem - why are you insisting that these solutions don't exist?

So lets say I disarm a guy.  That's a Create Advantage so the guy picks up the Disarmed Aspect and I get a +2.

Brand55 is saying that I would have to keep paying Fate Points every attack to Invoke that Disarmed Aspect.  In other words, it's only "True" when I pay for it to be True.

Rob is saying that since the situation is the guy is disarmed, then the Aspect always applies until something happens that makes it not apply (like the guy picks up his weapon or draws another).

First of all, do I have your opinions right?
Secondly, who is right according to the game?

Quote from: CRKrueger;965447So lets say I disarm a guy.  That's a Create Advantage so the guy picks up the Disarmed Aspect and I get a +2.

Brand55 is saying that I would have to keep paying Fate Points every attack to Invoke that Disarmed Aspect.  In other words, it's only "True" when I pay for it to be True.

Rob is saying that since the situation is the guy is disarmed, then the Aspect always applies until something happens that makes it not apply (like the guy picks up his weapon or draws another).

First of all, do I have your opinions right?
Secondly, who is right according to the game?

Well, disarmed might be a bad example, because there (if using weapon rules), you might have just denied the opponent his weapon. If we go with "Overwhelmed" instead, as if the character had been scared in the middle of the fight because of a monstrous roar (I'm going with your Hulk picture here for inspiration), this is how it works.

Check out the Create Advantage action on https://fate-srd.com/fate-core/four-actions

So if you passed your Create Advantage roll, for example, you would create this Overwhelmed situational aspect on the target, and get a free invocation. If you wanted to use it over and over, should it last (the opponent could get rid of it if able), you would need to spend a FP. The idea here is to create an incentive to do new things each round and keep interactions lively, rather than spam the same action over and over and be boring. That part of the rules, I like.

The how to stop people making the Alphabet Aspect Rangers attack, that's easy: insist that it will be rare that more than one Aspect will be useful against most targets, and don't let players (and GMs) ruin a game by using what are meant to be fun rules in silly ways. I did this in my Dresden game right off the bat, as it made sense - I didn't want people just reading lists of phrases to explain how they got rid of an opponent. Where I wanted them to try and overcome a serious threat by teamwork, I might note, out of character, that stacking Aspects was on the table. It set the tone, the game went, on, etc. etc.

I really like a more story gamy approach to rpg's except I don't care for the systems those games use. If that makes any sense. I usually go for a more rules light traditional system to achieve more roleplaying and less quote unquote roleplaying. So Fate is in a way similar to the WoD to me. It has nice ideas, but I don't really know what to do with it. I need my games to be as simple and straightforward as possible.

To use a more relevant example: flanking/ganging up. That's something that isn't meant to go away on its own and should be useful in a fight. Say you see a buddy fighting a minotaur so you run over and start swinging at the creature from the other side.

In most traditional rpgs, you and your friend are now receiving some sort of attack bonus or the minotaur's defense just went down to represent how difficult it is to defend against multiple attackers coming from different sides.

In Fate, you create an Advantage. For this example, we'll say you succeed with one free invocation of the new "Flanked by Enemies" Aspect that you just created on the minotaur. You can either use that free invocation yourself or pass it on to your friend. Either way, once that is used up you will both have to spend Fate Points to receive any mechanical benefit from flanking your opponent even though you're still doing it. If you're out of FP, then too bad.

If anyone has a reference to rules that say otherwise, I'd love to hear it. Personally, I think the biggest mistake they made with Fate Core was not adapting the Persistent Aspects from Strands of Fate. That would at least cover some scenarios where characters should be receiving mechanical benefits from Aspects but aren't because they've already done so and are out of FP.

Quote from: CRKrueger;965447So lets say I disarm a guy.  That's a Create Advantage so the guy picks up the Disarmed Aspect and I get a +2.

Brand55 is saying that I would have to keep paying Fate Points every attack to Invoke that Disarmed Aspect.  In other words, it's only "True" when I pay for it to be True.

Rob is saying that since the situation is the guy is disarmed, then the Aspect always applies until something happens that makes it not apply (like the guy picks up his weapon or draws another).

First of all, do I have your opinions right?
Secondly, who is right according to the game?

Ok, so, here is the answer you don't want to hear, both are right.

First, yes, you do get a free +2 the first time you invoke the aspect, and then you have to keep spending FPs to keep getting the +2.

Second, While the guy is disarmed there are certain things he cannot do, for example: he can't roll his shoot skill. If he wanted his gun back, he would have to beat an overcome roll if something is preventing him from reaching the gun, otherwise he would have to spend an action to get it back -getting rid of the disarmed aspect-.

What I'm getting to is that Fate does not model advantages with modifiers, but rather with the consequences of what's happening in the fiction (I hope I'm making sense). Actually, there is no such thing as a modifier in Fate, you only get a +2 with stunts (this models proficiency in an area) or with FP expenditure, which is a metagame resource which models the luck/awesome factir heroes have in most pulp fiction.

Free invoke are just invokes where no FPs are exchanged, but they aren't there to model that things are easier, but rather that the character is a freaking badass.

Quote from: Brand55;965513To use a more relevant example: flanking/ganging up. That's something that isn't meant to go away on its own and should be useful in a fight. Say you see a buddy fighting a minotaur so you run over and start swinging at the creature from the other side.

In most traditional rpgs, you and your friend are now receiving some sort of attack bonus or the minotaur's defense just went down to represent how difficult it is to defend against multiple attackers coming from different sides.

In Fate, you create an Advantage. For this example, we'll say you succeed with one free invocation of the new "Flanked by Enemies" Aspect that you just created on the minotaur. You can either use that free invocation yourself or pass it on to your friend. Either way, once that is used up you will both have to spend Fate Points to receive any mechanical benefit from flanking your opponent even though you're still doing it. If you're out of FP, then too bad.

If anyone has a reference to rules that say otherwise, I'd love to hear it. Personally, I think the biggest mistake they made with Fate Core was not adapting the Persistent Aspects from Strands of Fate. That would at least cover some scenarios where characters should be receiving mechanical benefits from Aspects but aren't because they've already done so and are out of FP.

It's not a reference in the rule book, but rather an expansion:

http://www.faterpg.com/2013/richards-guide-to-blocks-and-obstacles-in-fate-core/

Another way to model the advantage of flanking is to force the Minotaur to check twice to attack or defend, the first check is against a character running interference, the second for the attack/defend itself.

You can also do it strictly by the book, the flanking character can keep adding free invokes to the Flanked aspect with further Create an advantage actions, once again, distracting the minotaur.

Finally, I do have a in-house advantage-disadvantage (roll 3 D6 keep highest or lowest) and before that when I used 4DF, if you have advantage, roll 3DF and add a + to the final result, If you have disadvantage, roll 3DF and add a - to the final result. Simple and effective.

Cheers

Quote from: tanaka84;965542Ok, so, here is the answer you don't want to hear, both are right.

Yeah, this.

The only time you get a +2 (and bonuses are how most games model things) is when you use your free invoke or spend a Fate Point.  Since this is how most games model things, and you see that you only get the bonus in those circumstances, it's very, very easy to presume that that's the only time that aspects are true.

But.

Aspects are true:
https://fate-srd.com/fate-core/using-aspects-roleplaying
https://fate-srd.com/fate-accelerated/how-do-stuff-outcomes-actions-and-approaches

So let's say you're stuck to the floor, maybe by magic.  So the rules of this spell might be that you can't move until it's broken.  Now, you've got this aspect on you - can you move to another room?

If you go by the "+2 when Invoke, only" rule, then yes, you can.  Worst case you might have to beat a +2 to do so.  This doesn't make sense.

If you go by "aspects are true", then, no, you can't.  Because you're stuck to the ground.  It's true that you're stuck to the ground, so you can't do things that are impossible if you're stuck to the ground.  This is not spelled out.  It's assumed that this happens in "the world" level before the rules are consulted.  Given the amount of confusion over the years, it probably *should* be spelled out.

Same with passive opposition.  The rules clearly state that aspects should play into what passive opposition exists:  https://fate-srd.com/fate-core/four-outcomes
Again, it doesn't explicitly say that situational aspects are included.  It probably should.

It also doesn't explicitly say that passive opposition is a fallback if active opposition fails, but in most cases, it makes sense (and therefore gets stuck under the golden rule).  If you're behind half-cover, say, and do a bad job of dodging, you're *still behind half cover*.  So in most cases, most Fate GMs I know (and this is with folks communicating with the devs as well), will grant the better of either passive or active opposition.

Quote from: tanaka84;965549... good flanking stuff...

I'd also probably allow a flat +1 while flanking, presuming you're getting the "assistance" rule without actually having to use your turn.

Alternatively, you could declare that being flanked is a source of passive opposition, providing a "floor" to either attack or defense rolls by the opposition.  Actually, that's probably what I'd do.

So Aspects are actually "True"...as long as people aren't rolling dice.  

If they are rolling dice, it's only effectively "True" (as in, affecting the die roll) if someone pays for it to be true, or they get a free invoke.

Quote from: CRKrueger;965557So Aspects are actually "True"...as long as people aren't rolling dice.  

If they are rolling dice, it's only effectively "True" (as in, affecting the die roll) if someone pays for it to be true, or they get a free invoke.

Passive Opposition.

They're still true.  They still have an effect, it's just not via a bonus.

The other problem is that people often choose aspects that aren't really good at being aspects.  "Really Strong" is a crappy aspect.  It's a much better stunt.

Not to mention that the aspects can prevent the dice rolling in the first place...

Edit:  But, to be clear, if you are expecting aspects to provide a constant bonus to you in some situation, and for some reason don't want to use as stunt?  Then no, they don't do that.  That's presumed to be rolled into the justification for your Fight skill or whatever skill is relevant.

This is, in my mind, a good thing.  It means that, as a GM, I know that the peak skill people will have is +4, with maybe a bonus in certain circumstances.  I don't have to worry about charop meaning that some people have a peak of +8 while others have a peak of +4.  But it doesn't work like most other games, and you either accept that, or you don't.

Quote from: RPGPundit;962729I've noticed it tends to cause extreme reactions in people. So, do you love all things FATE, hate it, or like it within certain conditions?

When I tried it, it felt like an attempt was made through the rules to apply mechanics to role-playing, but the people who applied them had no concept whatsoever about what role-playing actually was. The whole experience just left me cold.

Whew. Too many replies and not enough time to respond to them all.

Quote from: robiswrong;965558Passive Opposition.

They're still true.  They still have an effect, it's just not via a bonus.

Yes and no. Passive Opposition is not meant to apply in every situation; its primary purpose is to provide a resistance number when there is no one actively rolling in opposition. This works great for lots of things, no doubt, but it hardly applies to every single situation. Thus, you have people taking the situations like the flanking example and coming up with various solutions for how to handle them.

And there's the rub. If I sit down to a game of D&D or Savage Worlds or any of a hundred other games, I know exactly what I'm getting into in that situation. Even the ones that don't explicitly spell out their effects are often pretty clear; usually it'll just come down to the GM handing out a small bonus.

Fate? When I sit down to a game of Fate, I have no clue what I'll be looking at if I flank someone because the game itself doesn't know how best to handle that situation. GM A gives a small +1 bonus for cooperation, GM B treats flanking like the old Block maneuver, GM C uses a variant of the current Passive Opposition rules, and GMs D & E play it strictly by-the-book with the only advantage of flanking coming from invocations of the Aspect.

I'm not saying the game is bad, or that solutions to issues in the rules can't be found. They absolutely can be. I'm just saying that the RAW is not to my liking in how it models certain things. If the game works great for you, that's awesome and all that really matters.

Quote from: CRKrueger;965557So Aspects are actually "True"...as long as people aren't rolling dice.  

If they are rolling dice, it's only effectively "True" (as in, affecting the die roll) if someone pays for it to be true, or they get a free invoke.

If you define "True" as in a direct modifier to your dice roll, then yes; the confusing point Fate tries to make is that you can model how "things" happening in the fiction do not need to equate to a number when you roll.

One thing to keep in mind is that an aspect is not just words, they represent something, just like an 18 in Con represents the pinnacle of human health (with all that implies), so, they are not prescriptive but rather descriptive.

Let's say your character is trying to sneak inside a building in the middle of the night, you make your sneak roll and add a +X because it's very dark,

So, on Fate-land, we have the aspect "middle of the night", why does it exist?, because the character is trying to infiltrate at a certain time, in theory there are few guards, and no personal. You make your sneak roll and depending on what the GM and the player negotiate you can:

- Roll like normal
- Roll, but we set a floor,  the least you can roll is a +2 (Fair), since that's the absolute worst anyone could do in this darkness.
- Don't roll, since it's so dark and you have the aspect "gentleman thief" you have enough of a reason to succeed automatically (Take 10)
- Roll like normal, but against an active opposition (a security guy) they have a ceiling of +2 (fair) ceiling, since that's the absolute best anyone could  do in this darkness.

And then, you can spend a FP and gain a +2 or reroll if you so like. I can't stress this enough, gaining a +2 is NOT a function of the aspect, but a function of the Fate Point itself that requires an aspect to work.

Fate simply does not like modifiers, and that has it's own advantages and disadvantages.