The FATE games that aren't done by frustrated storygamers enamored of the smell of their own farts can be good.

Starblazer Adventures was good.
So was ICONs.

Mindjammer FATE was also good, though Mindjammer Traveller is so much better.

Quote from: RPGPundit;964210The FATE games that aren't done by frustrated storygamers enamored of the smell of their own farts can be good.

Starblazer Adventures was good.
So was ICONs.

Mindjammer FATE was also good, though Mindjammer Traveller is so much better.

I picked up Mindjammer Fate just as I was starting to burn out on the system. It's excellent and I don't regret getting it because it was executed with a clear vision and was meant to be something other than yet another rad-cool mashup. By the way, your review sold me on the Traveller version.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;963934I'm going to "me, too" this. FATE is just filled with all these metagame mechanical interactions that seem to consistently add up to less than the sum of their parts.

It's like an RPG designed by a second rate philosophy professor. You ask, "How do I boil an egg?" And FATE says, "Well, first let us start by defining the egg..." before rambling on for 20 minutes about the symbolism of the yolk. Meanwhile every other RPG is like, "You put it in boiling water."

Pretty much.

Quote from: Omega;963328Except D&D.

You misspelled GURPS.

Quote from: Eisenmann;964298I picked up Mindjammer Fate just as I was starting to burn out on the system. It's excellent and I don't regret getting it because it was executed with a clear vision and was meant to be something other than yet another rad-cool mashup. By the way, your review sold me on the Traveller version.

Hope the game designer is reading this. And other game designers...

I ran a year long DFTRPG game, which had its ups and downs. The thing I found about the system was that the mechanics never, ever faded into the background. Because you had to constantly engage in, and manage the Aspects on characters and in scenes, there was a continual effort to step out of the gamespace and re-engage with the sheet. By the end of the game we had all got fairly good at juggling this, and Fate Core's reduction of Aspects to 5 (from the 9 in DFTRPG) was a welcome change. All together, I really like Fate Core. I'm especially happy with the presence of the epub version, so I can read and reference the book on an ereader or low powered tablet*.

I've run it several times, with mixed success, and while sometimes I feel it's a good game, other times I wonder if the mechanics move too clunky for my style of play. Aspects can become like armour for any kind of intervention with a PC, and I've had a few players camp on concepts and refuse to move with the flow of the game. Ultimately, my group isn't a fan, so the game sits unplayed on the shelf.

I have to say my single encounter with Fred Hicks was so irritating, I would have thrown a beverage in his face if he'd acted that way in person. Fortunately the rest of the Fate community on G+ isn't as irritating as him. On the other hand, I play Palladium even though KS can be a twat, so wtf do I care about the author? It's my biggest gripe about the big purple folks that an author of an RPG has to be this paragon of virtue, inclusion and cultural sensitivity.

* And I seriously wish more game companies would go this way. PDFs are beasts on low powered devices, and as a GM, I don't need the art and pretty fonts. Give me the rules.

Fred Hicks is the worst thing about FATE.

One of the worst encounters I had on rpg.net was quite possibly with Fred Hicks. I can't directly recall him by name, but it was a Fate designer/promoter and sounds like the guy.

There was a long thread of gushing fan obsessive praise about how Spirit of the Century was the best game of all time along with an aggressive campaign to shill the rpg.net game index (which was a new thing at the time) so it could be ranked as the number one game. I hadn't heard of it before so I did a bit of an investigation into it (as I do with any new game I hear about) and found a negative review which I posted as a link on the thread - basically to say it wasn't being universally praised by everyone. Just one link and that comment was all I posted. This guy, assuming it was Fred Hicks, then popped up on the thread and gave an aggressive and apoplectic attack on myself and my character. He was then joined by a bunch of other fans. The mods said nothing to him or made any comment about the dogpile, but then admonished me for 'threadcrapping' and banned me from the thread. There was no tolerance whatsoever for criticising the game or impeding upon the marketing campaign in action.

This is the reason I find myself baulking at FATE (and why I don't like the moderation at RPG.net), even though I don't personally object to the game as such in terms of playing it, and I will note that some other Fate game designers were more consolidatory after.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;965030One of the worst encounters I had on rpg.net was quite possibly with Fred Hicks. I can't directly recall him by name, but it was a Fate designer/promoter and sounds like the guy.

There was a long thread of gushing fan obsessive praise about how Spirit of the Century was the best game of all time along with an aggressive campaign to shill the rpg.net game index (which was a new thing at the time) so it could be ranked as the number one game. I hadn't heard of it before so I did a bit of an investigation into it (as I do with any new game I hear about) and found a negative review which I posted as a link on the thread - basically to say it wasn't being universally praised by everyone. Just one link and that comment was all I posted. This guy, assuming it was Fred Hicks, then popped up on the thread and gave an aggressive and apoplectic attack on myself and my character. He was then joined by a bunch of other fans. The mods said nothing to him or made any comment about the dogpile, but then admonished me for 'threadcrapping' and banned me from the thread. There was no tolerance whatsoever for criticising the game or impeding upon the marketing campaign in action.

This is the reason I find myself baulking at FATE (and why I don't like the moderation at RPG.net), even though I don't personally object to the game as such in terms of playing it, and I will note that some other Fate game designers were more consolidatory after.

Sounds like S.O.P. over there for awhile (Try criticizing Exalted at some points). Its gotten better over the years but not stopped entireyl

Ah yes Fate, I have a love and hate relationship with the game...

On one side I LOVE aspects, behind all the faux quasi-postmodern language, what it boils to is a codified system to what GM have been doing for ages (hey, yeah you are trying to lockpick the door while the room is on fire, have a penalty). The system is lightweight yet flexible enough to run out-of-the-box, and it has the right tools for people who like to improvise (I can pull a whole session out of my ass by compelling 2 aspects), oh and its simplicity makes it VERY hackable, you can make any kind of sub-system with almost no risk of breaking the game (it's FUDGE after all).

On the other side... the game only works with certain groups because it's clunky as hell, so unless you belong to the Fate church (or are an indoctrinated freshman) the game can quickly crash and burn:

A. As others have said, the difference between 4Df and 8Df is abysmal http://anydice.com/program/9ba8 the difference in variance and spread is huge, so FP are more valuable in opposed checks (to compensate for the added "swinginess"),    

B. The fudge dice are fun killers, there is nothing less appealing than rolling dice and ending worse than where you started; I know that O'Sullivan wanted to simulate behavior as a curve (FUDGE)... but GURPS did it better, you don't feel like you are getting punished every time you roll the dice (Basic psychology 101, if you take something away from someone, like ending up lower on the fate ladder, you end up with a sense of loss, which is cool sometimes, just not 1/3 of your rolls).
My fix: I play fate with 2d6 and the GM never rolls dice (so every roll is like 8df without the extreme results), I just add 7 to any opposition and be done with it.  

C. The game really needs a better writer / someone who comes from outside the Fate diaspora, to properly explain it/write it in a manageable manner; as it stands you have to do something akin to bible hermeneutics, finding the truth within the words. Take aspects for example, the book states that they provide narrative permission and then they leave it at that, nowhere in the core text they explain that a blinded character cannot take actions that involve seeing, (in other system that's handle with a penalty/status effect), it's obvious but even the most sensible things get lost in a sea of complex terminology (once again post-modern discourse at it's best).
Fix: Check out the book of Hanz, the guy did Evil Hat a HUGE favor, that book is gold.

D. Invoking... who thought that it was a good idea the way it is right now, every fucking opposed roll ends up like this "So, you are winning, I tag my A aspect" "HAH!  So I invoke my b aspect" "HAH!-HAH! I have a free invoke bring it ahole!" "YOU HAVE A CONSEQUENCE I CAN INVOKE MWUHAHHAHAHAHA". And then a simple attack becomes a battle of FP... yes the game is not supposed to work like that, but guess what, it's the optimal strategy, and it's conductive of that type of behavior, unless you are newbie and are taught that It's a big no-no or you are part of the Fate diaspora.
My fix: Attacker rolls, defender spends FP then attacker spends FP (remember I use 2d6)

E. Create an advantage is an awesome idea, but in the end it's clunky unless you use it in a certain way... for example, let's say the group is fighting a legendary dragon, the obvious choice is to let the dragon attack first (thus spending it's action for the turn), afterwards, stockpile CaA and close the round with an attack that uses all invokes in a magnificent epic strike. (Quick tip, attack is the least useful action in fate, if everyone attacks combat takes millions of years)

So, if you have 3 players rolling CaA (let's say 2 got a success and the third one a Success with style, so 4 free invokes), the final attacker gets a hefty +8.
Where it breaks down is that now you have 4 new aspects on the table to deal with, add to that the scene aspects (let's say 2) the dragon's aspects (let's say another 2) and player aspects (20+ consequences), you end up with 28 aspects to think about.  And if the GM is a prick she could force you to describe how each of those 4 aspects helps you against the dragon.

Now, you could decide to create a single aspect (overwhelmed, distracted) and stockpile invokes on the aspect, that makes it parsimonious an easier to handle (albeit less evocative).

oh, and for those keeping count, that means that the whole turn took at least 9 rolls (some of  them simultaneous) where FP could have been spent or stress dealt.

I haven't found a fix for this issue that doesn't involve asking the players to keep it simple; there has to be a middle ground between no aspects and having a phone book list of aspects.  

So yeah, I would play Fate Core in a heartbeat... but I'm the first to admit that the game desperately needs a new edition + a strong designer... in a way I feel like the book would be a completely different beast if it came out today, there is a lot to be learned from systems in the last couple of years (Apocalypse World and it's derivatives for example)  


TL: DR - The game has a bunch of loopholes and clunky rules which are actually enforced by the game; and the best Fate tables have a silent agreement to consciously avoid them, still I love the game.

Does Create Advantage create an Aspect that hangs around a while, or does it apply for that round only?

Quote from: CRKrueger;965347Does Create Advantage create an Aspect that hangs around a while, or does it apply for that round only?

In general, that depends on how well you roll to create it. Do just okay and it stays temporarily as a one-time boost. Do better and it sticks around to be used more often, but even then others can take action to remove/change it or in more rare situations the narrative may alter it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;965347Does Create Advantage create an Aspect that hangs around a while, or does it apply for that round only?

If you fail the check you either don't create the advantage, or you create something that your enemy can use against you (GM's call)

On a tie you get a boost (an unnamed +2)

On a success you get full fledge aspect with a free invoke (+2 once without spending FP) that lasts until the narrative changes in some way (someone rolls to get rid of the aspect, the scene changes, or it doesn't make sense anymore)

On a success with style, same deal, only you get 2 free invokes

FATE is probably my go to system for RPGs now. Fate Core specifically, as it eliminates a lot of the jargon used in the ruleset from games like Dresden Files.It's the easiest for me to run "On the Fly" I took a couple short campaigns to really get my head around Aspects and how they work in play, but it's been a great time since then.

I really like how Aspects reinforce story elements like character concepts and story themes. If you've written "Greatest Archer in all the land" on you characters sheet, then it is true. Whenever bad luck would go against that conceit, you have the ability mitigate it with a bonus or re-roll. If a house has a "Dark and Spooky" Aspect, it gives players a nice little incentive for their characters to act accordingly.

I can see why some players wouldn't love it though.  The results of an action can feel like a retroactive continuity as Aspects can be used after rolls to sort of "negotiate" the outcome. Anyone who strongly favors first-person roleplaying would probably have a hard time with that. Same with players/GMs who don't like to do the creative "heavy lifting" at the table.

It's also not great if you are into tactics/strategy. Hiding behind a wall for cover doesn't matter unless you've spent the Fate point to make it relevant. There's some tactics in generating advantages and utilizing Fate Points but it's a game that's about telling the story of a conflict over the action-reaction and tactics of a game like D&D 5e.

Quote from: KrakaJak;965385It's also not great if you are into tactics/strategy. Hiding behind a wall for cover doesn't matter unless you've spent the Fate point to make it relevant. There's some tactics in generating advantages and utilizing Fate Points but it's a game that's about telling the story of a conflict over the action-reaction and tactics of a game like D&D 5e.

I think this is ultimately what sours the game for me. It's not even about tactics, it's about realism. I have similar problems with games like Cortex Plus. There are some solid settings for Fate out there, but I'd honestly much prefer stripping out the Aspects (or stripping them back like in the first edition of Icons) and running such games in a more traditional manner.