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Author Topic: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby  (Read 8600 times)

hedgehobbit

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2021, 08:39:53 PM »
All to live out the racist fantasy that "if all the white men had just died, we'd be in a much better world".

It's also a fantasy that is based on the idea that preventing immigration is a good thing.

TJS

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2021, 08:47:43 PM »
Agree the non-colonised America setting sounds interesting in principle. Tricky to pull off the backstory in a plausible way. Presumably Europe has to get quasi-nuked. Then what? Ming vs Ottomans along the Mississippi frontier?

It would be easy to explain if you could concoct some event that exposes native Americans to Eurasian diseases a few hundred years before Columbus. That way their population would have recovered enough to be able to fight back more effectively. Vikings could work but that's a too cliché. The Chinese treasure fleet would also work but that's a bit too late in the timeline.

A setup like this would let you create a New York existing in a situation similar to Hong Kong which could be a cool setting location.

Of course, the authors of the kickstarter used the tired "climate change" disaster which conveniently killed Europe while also, at least judging from the cover, making all native American's flamboyantly gay.
I think you could do it with earlier vikings.  Get germanic or norse ships over to North America earlier and have them bring horses and iron working and you've probably got a chance for that to trickle out across the Americas. European crops such as wheat would probably help as well.

It would still seem unlikely without some kind of further contrivance that the Americas would outstrip the old world in terms of technological advancement.

Kyle Aaron

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2021, 08:48:13 PM »
It would be easy to explain if you could concoct some event that exposes native Americans to Eurasian diseases a few hundred years before Columbus. That way their population would have recovered enough to be able to fight back more effectively. Vikings could work but that's a too cliché.
Not necessarily. Vikings with smallpox. I was thinking that the other day.
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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2021, 09:26:10 PM »
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So, a game of racialist fantasy wish fulfillment imagining a nonsensical alternate history that would never ever have happened, in order to try to argue that "Native Americans were right on the verge of jumping right from mass blood-sacrifice while failing to invent the wheel ALL the way over to Social-Justice Super-tech Utopia, if it hadn't been for that EVIL WHITE MAN!" is what you're presenting as the "Common sense alternative" to Fat Self Care to show that the SJWs aren't just Ideological Terrorists out to transform the hobby into a pop culture version of forced-indoctrination-camps?

Yup. As traditionalist and volkist I'm great supporter of ethnic fantasies even if they have jackshit to do with real possibilities of the world.
I could not care less about real history in my RPG unless I play strictly very historical RPG. Otherwise I'm quite fine with Welsh suddenly being race of Nietzschean ubermensch in Howard's Hyborean Era, despite Welsh being British hillbillies really, I have no problem with not-really African African empires in 7th Sea, and so on, and so on. I mean I could even buy Wakanda if it was not size of fucking Andorra.
Now of course this game can still be very woke - in sexual matters, and in matters of virtue signalling against whites, but this is not given yet.

Also your reducing all North and South Americas to basically Horror!Aztecs is honestly just as bad as their signalling.

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To me it looks like Wakanda-for-Indians. A fantasy of a society that not only does not exist, but never existed and NEVER WOULD have existed even if you killed every single white man before 1492. That you need some kind of magic or super-science to explain, because otherwise it makes no sense, and usually still makes no sense even with it.

All to live out the racist fantasy that "if all the white men had just died, we'd be in a much better world".

Well indeed there is magical meteor that brought second Ice Age on world and gave people psionic powers. Which I mean - let's say they acknowledge in 1500s American natives were nowhere near possibility of repelling Europeans on their own power (and I mean magical meteorite is quite peaceful solution - if I was some Lakota Jingoist I'd probably simply reverse plague options - making American strains of infections much more lethal for Europeans - and letting them to move to Europe with American captives).

As I quite like reading - have no chance playing scenarios - where Poland though magical means manages to estabilish Empire and crush Russia and Germany either before partitions or WW2, I honestly understand and support Muskogen desires to at least imagine Muskogen Empire Fairyland. I also support water-elemental based Polynesian Empire taking over all oceans of the Earth.
That's precisely what I have my weird-fiction-fantasy-sci-fi-cyberpunk-hybrids to do wacky shit like that. Including imperialist fantasies for members of disenfranchised nations. :3

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You could have santa claus kill every last white person, and it wouldn't have made America sufficiently rich in certain resources required to produce a sufficiently advanced civilization, nor the kind of groundwork of concepts required to create a society that has concepts of the Rights of Man, the Scientific Method, or the Universality of God. You aren't going to get there when you're having huge trouble getting around to inventing the wheel.

That's really weird kind of essentialism. Of course Americans were once many centuries behind due to colonizing fresh virgin continent, rather than use possible synergy of merging of farmers, pastoralist and hunter groups that umphed overall civilisational power of Eurasians. There you started only with hunters and fresh continent. And it took many thousand years for Eurasians to really get farming after Out of Africa, so reaching basically Neolithic period is what should be expected from Americans even if they were genetically superior and smartest of all mankind.
But well we were also rabid barbarians like 8000 years ago and nobody cares.

About those concepts you suddenly capitalise so much - I do not consider human rights to really be vital, they were definitely not in place in times we started to conquer shit out of Native Americans, neither was Scientific Method. Only Universality of God is less material-development depended and well it happened even among Aztec royalty - vide Nezahualcoyotl, and Aztec priesthood officially proclaimed pantheism - those things are certainly possible to made, of course as history learns - accepting Universality of God, rarely leads to Universality of Men.

Now of course it depends of timeline. If game takes part in 2020 and America is suddenly in cyberpunk period I press X.
But it can be like year 3500 and suddenly it's bit more plausible at least with magical psionic meteorite ;) We reached Scientific Method proper what... 200 years ago, maybe 250. A very short time period in our overall history.

I see one vividly problematic aspect for America development compared to Eurasian ones - lack of horse and I see no other local animal that could easily replace them. That's much more problematic than lack of wheel, which in Eurasia was rather curiosity before we went all cavalry and riders. Without horse it would be wheelbarrows for Americans - much less attractive deal.


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It is a complete fantasy based out of a wish fulfillment that utopia would have happened were it not for the evil white men, when in fact it was Western Civilization that has, in all of human history, gotten as close to Utopia as anyone has so far (though admittedly still very very far from it). It's resentment pseudo-history.

Maybe. Or maybe it's just power fantasy of people fucked over by white men, who care more about their national traditions that about universality of Anglosaxon civilisation - which I of course despise as good continental Catholic :P

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The most likely outcome of no Columbian Exchange would have been that in 2021, tribes would still roam the great plains killing buffalo and each other, while central America would be at some stage of its seemingly eternal cycle of building up monument-building empires based on human sacrifice and then having those empires collapse from resource-scarcity back into primitive tribes based on human sacrifice.  Maybe the Inca would have fared a bit better, but it's not too likely.

Maybe, maybe not. There is definitely no demand to use mass human sacrifice to build empire even in America. That's why everybody hated Aztecs so much. Occassional human sacrifices were done in Eurasia in Neolithic period, and well way way later and it somehow did not stopped us.

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2021, 09:32:38 PM »
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It's also a fantasy that is based on the idea that preventing immigration is a good thing.

:3

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It would be easy to explain if you could concoct some event that exposes native Americans to Eurasian diseases a few hundred years before Columbus. That way their population would have recovered enough to be able to fight back more effectively. Vikings could work but that's a too cliché. The Chinese treasure fleet would also work but that's a bit too late in the timeline.

Even without 50-75% flu extermination I doubt they would be able to stop Spanish and English for long TBH. But it could change societal structure of modern Latin America into much more native-based, with high robust population relations could be estabilished on feudal level, and Christened chieftains and kings could become important vassal, as America would not be sponge for Europeans that much.


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Of course, the authors of the kickstarter used the tired "climate change" disaster which conveniently killed Europe while also, at least judging from the cover, making all native American's flamboyantly gay.

Did they wrote it killed Europe - I missed that. Thought it just dropped world into post-apo situation so extra-American forces lost their advantages enough to not be a problem.

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It would still seem unlikely without some kind of further contrivance that the Americas would outstrip the old world in terms of technological advancement.

Indeed. So 700 years given in Coyote is really really meh, I mean if magical meteorite throw Earth in Ice Age somewhere near 1000 AD, it would fuck up most of way more advanced civilisations beyond fast recovery.

Cloyer Bulse

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2021, 10:05:53 PM »
....I think you could do it with earlier vikings.  Get germanic or norse ships over to North America earlier and have them bring horses and iron working and you've probably got a chance for that to trickle out across the Americas. European crops such as wheat would probably help as well.

It would still seem unlikely without some kind of further contrivance that the Americas would outstrip the old world in terms of technological advancement.

It would require early contact with the Greco-Roman world and substantial crossbreeding (as happened with the Germanic peoples) in order to ensure a higher level of neural density similar to Europeans, otherwise they’d get steamrolled regardless of their population. The Spaniards steamrolled the central Native Americans even though they were greatly outnumbered. In fact, the British steamrolled much of the world despite being greatly outnumbered. Crossbreeding over many generations in former colonies has enabled previously enslaved populations to throw off their former masters and become autonomous. The French terrorized, exploited, and interbred with the Vietnamese for a century before the Vietnam war, and so it was that the Americans faced what was in essence an angry wasps’ nest that had some fairly intelligent leaders.

The main issue is that isolated populations evolve more slowly than those that have immediate access to trade routes. Being overrun and enslaved is the primary means by which genes have spread historically due to forced interbreeding. The latest version of the gene that causes increased neural density comes from Mesopotamia and appeared between 5 and 6 thousand years ago and has been quickly spreading outward since then.


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….Yup. As traditionalist and volkist I'm great supporter of ethnic fantasies even if they have jackshit to do with real possibilities of the world….

If that is what it were, then certainly. But more likely it is just white liberals making a game about their “people of color” pets in order to proselytize their ideology.

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Coyote and Crow is a tabletop role playing game set in an alternate future of the Americas where colonization never occurred. Instead, advanced civilizations arose over hundreds of years after a massive climate disaster changed the history of the planet. You'll play as adventurers starting out in the city of Cahokia, a bustling, diverse metropolis along the Mississippi River. It's a world of science and spirituality where the future of technology and legends of the past will collide.

The phrase “science and spirituality” makes me think of the junk science and the “spiritual but not religious” nonsense of the radical leftists. I’ve sat in on these sorts of courses at the university, so I know it’s just political propaganda.

Shasarak

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2021, 10:09:40 PM »
I also support water-elemental based Polynesian Empire taking over all oceans of the Earth.

As someone who lives near Polynesia, thats a lot of blood and human sacrifice.
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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2021, 10:16:48 PM »
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If that is what it were, then certainly. But more likely it is just white liberals making a game about their “people of color” pets in order to proselytize their ideology.

AFAIK all writers are Native Americans. I mean many members of tribes are white liberals anyway thanks to drop rules and so, but still. It is made by people being at least formally tribe members.

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The phrase “science and spirituality” makes me think of the junk science and the “spiritual but not religious” nonsense of the radical leftists. I’ve sat in on these sorts of courses at the university, so I know it’s just political propaganda.

There is certainly risk of it.


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As someone who lives near Polynesia, thats a lot of blood and human sacrifice.

Cool I for once want RPG when human sacrifice is noble, proper and way thing ought to be by divine decreet ;)

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t would require early contact with the Greco-Roman world and substantial crossbreeding (as happened with the Germanic peoples) in order to ensure a higher level of neural density similar to Europeans, otherwise they’d get steamrolled regardless of their population.

Graece-Roman people had jackshit to do with Germanic neurodensity - in fact Germanic and Italic folk came to be from quite simmilar mixtures of three basic population - Western Hunter Gatherers, Anatolian Farmers and Ancestral North Eurasians. The events that pushed boreal neurodensity higher are ancient and it took millenia and lot of luck to get this into civilisation level.
Also Native Americans came from mixture of Ancestral North Eurasians (which were population that basically created and dominated Indoeuroepans as shown by vast R1a/R1b dominance everywhere IE came, and R1 came from ANE) with various East Asian folk. Neither of those people are dumb. But even being smart you need a lot.

Neurodensity can be used against Africans, not Americans.

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Crossbreeding over many generations in former colonies has enabled previously enslaved populations to throw off their former masters and become autonomous. The French terrorized, exploited, and interbred with the Vietnamese for a century before the Vietnam war, and so it was that the Americans faced what was in essence an angry wasps’ nest that had some fairly intelligent leaders.

Vietnam people build serious early civilisation when our ancestors were forest hillbillies.
As I said above - this has jackshit to do with European blood - level of which among modern Vietnamese is negligible.



Shasarak

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2021, 10:32:31 PM »
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As someone who lives near Polynesia, thats a lot of blood and human sacrifice.

Cool I for once want RPG when human sacrifice is noble, proper and way thing ought to be by divine decreet ;)

Ah, noble!  Good one.
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pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Omega

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2021, 11:09:27 PM »
So, a game of racialist fantasy wish fulfillment imagining a nonsensical alternate history that would never ever have happened, in order to try to argue that "Native Americans were right on the verge of jumping right from mass blood-sacrifice while failing to invent the wheel ALL the way over to Social-Justice Super-tech Utopia, if it hadn't been for that EVIL WHITE MAN!" is what you're presenting as the "Common sense alternative" to Fat Self Care to show that the SJWs aren't just Ideological Terrorists out to transform the hobby into a pop culture version of forced-indoctrination-camps?

Because I don't think you're making the point you think you're making.

It is just a cash-in follow the trend reskin (redskin?) of Black Panther and Wakanda. Which itself have become another hatemonger platform for fake-Marvel.
Captain Canuck has a similar theme with Canada becoming practically a world government. Except not offensive. Same for Stand Still, Stay Silent where about the last remnants of civilization are in Iceland and parts of Scandinavia.

It is not a new idea. It has just been hijacked by these sociopaths as an easy platform to spread their venom now.

I forget the RPG but way back there was one where the "new world" being colonized turned out to be europe and the colonists were by implication then native americans. Though about the only way you could tell was by the map. That is not a new idea either and can be a fun little flip to play around with.

But as with everything. These cultists can and will twist it into their agenda.

Omega

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2021, 12:01:42 AM »
You aren't going to get there when you're having huge trouble getting around to inventing the wheel.

And no horses.

Which is something oft overlooked as people assume horses were in the Americas before Europeans came along. Sure a few civilizaions had pack animals of various sorts. But few, if any, had riding animals. Which vastly limits the spread of knowledge to just foot travel essentially.

TJS

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2021, 12:12:47 AM »
....I think you could do it with earlier vikings.  Get germanic or norse ships over to North America earlier and have them bring horses and iron working and you've probably got a chance for that to trickle out across the Americas. European crops such as wheat would probably help as well.

It would still seem unlikely without some kind of further contrivance that the Americas would outstrip the old world in terms of technological advancement.

It would require early contact with the Greco-Roman world and substantial crossbreeding (as happened with the Germanic peoples) in order to ensure a higher level of neural density similar to Europeans, otherwise they’d get steamrolled regardless of their population. The Spaniards steamrolled the central Native Americans even though they were greatly outnumbered. In fact, the British steamrolled much of the world despite being greatly outnumbered. Crossbreeding over many generations in former colonies has enabled previously enslaved populations to throw off their former masters and become autonomous. The French terrorized, exploited, and interbred with the Vietnamese for a century before the Vietnam war, and so it was that the Americans faced what was in essence an angry wasps’ nest that had some fairly intelligent leaders.

The main issue is that isolated populations evolve more slowly than those that have immediate access to trade routes. Being overrun and enslaved is the primary means by which genes have spread historically due to forced interbreeding. The latest version of the gene that causes increased neural density comes from Mesopotamia and appeared between 5 and 6 thousand years ago and has been quickly spreading outward since then.


Quote from: ”Wicked Woodpecker of West”
….Yup. As traditionalist and volkist I'm great supporter of ethnic fantasies even if they have jackshit to do with real possibilities of the world….

If that is what it were, then certainly. But more likely it is just white liberals making a game about their “people of color” pets in order to proselytize their ideology.

Quote
Coyote and Crow is a tabletop role playing game set in an alternate future of the Americas where colonization never occurred. Instead, advanced civilizations arose over hundreds of years after a massive climate disaster changed the history of the planet. You'll play as adventurers starting out in the city of Cahokia, a bustling, diverse metropolis along the Mississippi River. It's a world of science and spirituality where the future of technology and legends of the past will collide.

The phrase “science and spirituality” makes me think of the junk science and the “spiritual but not religious” nonsense of the radical leftists. I’ve sat in on these sorts of courses at the university, so I know it’s just political propaganda.
Neural density?  WTF?

Brad

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2021, 06:59:27 AM »
You aren't going to get there when you're having huge trouble getting around to inventing the wheel.

And no horses.

Which is something oft overlooked as people assume horses were in the Americas before Europeans came along. Sure a few civilizaions had pack animals of various sorts. But few, if any, had riding animals. Which vastly limits the spread of knowledge to just foot travel essentially.

What..? You mean Apaches riding across the plains with Henry rifles wasn’t a common occurrence until a few hundred years after they met the Europeans? Surely you jest, sir!

The people writing this game probably don’t even know the current map of Europe has only been around for like 20 years, if that.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 07:02:33 AM by Brad »

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2021, 07:50:44 AM »
You aren't going to get there when you're having huge trouble getting around to inventing the wheel.

And no horses.

Which is something oft overlooked as people assume horses were in the Americas before Europeans came along. Sure a few civilizaions had pack animals of various sorts. But few, if any, had riding animals. Which vastly limits the spread of knowledge to just foot travel essentially.

What..? You mean Apaches riding across the plains with Henry rifles wasn’t a common occurrence until a few hundred years after they met the Europeans? Surely you jest, sir!

The people writing this game probably don’t even know the current map of Europe has only been around for like 20 years, if that.

Yup about 15 give or take a few months. Montenegro got independence in 2006.


Chris24601

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Re: "Fat Self Care" is the Future SJWs Want For The Hobby
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2021, 08:45:49 AM »
...Discredited Racist Bullshit Theories...
Neural density?  WTF?
I’m about 99% convinced that Cloyer is a Leftist Troll cosplaying what he/she/it thinks a conservative believes with the hope of scoring virtue points by proving how awful conservatives are when people agree with them... only to be frustrated because the response to their professions of belief has actually been more along the lines of “fuck off you waste of human skin.”

The remaining 1% odds is that they really are a spiteful loser who thinks genetics and not cultural norms you are raised with are the primary determinant of probability of success in life. They’re not “right-wing”; they’re just the mirror of the same idiocy of the Left who also thinks genetics trumps everything.

All evidence is that variances in human neural density are trivial factors compared to the values acculturated in a given group. Compare the many many successes of blacks in the United States just a few generations removed from Africa that they had between the Civil War and the advent of Johnson’s New Deal programs designed to destroy the cultural elements that made them successful.

It wasn’t genetics that let them progress greatly despite discrimination against them; it was the American Judeo-Christian values (including having a married mother and father raising their children) they grew up in.

The reason Pundit’s analysis of why the Americas wouldn’t be “Wokeanda” if the Europeans hadn’t colonized them has zero to do with genetics and everything to do with the underlying cultures... the European culture built a world so abundant in resources and quality of life that self-loathing racists have the free time to make up their idiotic games instead of being beaten by a taskmaster and told to get back to work plowing the fields or mining by hand.

It was a combo of Germanic, Greco-Roman and Christian cultural elements that allowed such massive advances over the rest of the world (even the Dark Ages had their purpose in stripping away the overly centralized Roman authorities in favor of local and more responsive government that gave people more freedom to innovate while still having the roads, horses and a mostly common language needed to share the best ideas among a larger population).

Even more in the case of America it was the self-selection of risk takers who chose to endure long and dangerous sea voyages and uncertain conditions with limited resources on arrival in the hope of a better life that led to a culture of innovative risk takers with strong Judeo-Christian beliefs (as many of the risk takers were seeking a better life because of religious persecution in their former homes).

Basically, America had a talent stack that was unique in history that allowed it to become the superpower it did. Getting the same sort of talent stack anywhere else is just SJW magical thinking.