Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 02:03:48 PM
This is just another example of uninformed pseudo-science from this crowd.  They see the term, decide it means whatever they think it means, and don't bother to go learn the differences.  Exactly the kind of person you want giving an improvised therapy session using counter-productive tools to an unbalanced person, right? People can be charged with a felony for encouraging a suicidal person to "do it".  Far as I'm concerned, going off half-cocked with "RPG theraphy" should at least set up the GM for a lawsuit.

I have no opinion on the RPG since I haven't read it.

However, as long as the authors don't misrepresent themselves as legally licensed doctors, it's legal to give all sorts of bad advice - including pseudo-science. There are endless pseudo-science self-help books advising astrology, crystals, faith healing, etc. - including many forms of self-care. I hate pseudo-science, but I don't think it should be illegal. People need to come to science - it can't be forced on them.

Quote from: DocJones on March 28, 2021, 09:58:56 AM

Many of the gaming forums seem to have threads (tangency is notable) where members list their mental and physical afflictions as a source of pride or rather  competition.

And near as I can tell from reading, quite a few of these people believe RPGs are/should be therapy sessions.

I agree that it is lunacy as well.

It's already happening...

Behold!

The Future of D&D's Adventurer's League:

Quote from: Therapeutic Tabletop Gaming​ on March 28, 2021, 09:58:56 AM
https://www.enworld.org/threads/meet-the-bodhana-group.679031/
...
"At that first Save Against Fear convention, with 35 people, we started hearing stories," said Jack. Stories about how gaming had helped people. How role-playing books inspired their interest to read as a child. How the character they created in the game had traits of the character they strive to be in life. How their game group had become the most important social group they had in their life. It was inspiring. So the Bodhana Group switched gears. They had found their path: Therapeutic Tabletop Gaming.

"One of the biggest things that we had learned was that people were gaining therapeutic benefits and increased self-understanding through active engagement with their own struggles and issues within the game," said Jack. "We started examining our own interest in the hobby and the intentional nature of our own play, whether it was getting through our parent's divorce, the death of family, or social isolation and self-esteem. We thought: how wonderful it would be and how much more powerful could this be if we intentionally, through the guidance and oversight of a trained therapist, built therapeutics and clinical goals into the process?"

The Bodhana Group built upon these lessons learned early in their formation by adopting the principle of starting with a firm foundation rooted in a therapeutic modality, like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and then adapting the game to highlight these techniques in game design. Thus the world, the characters, the challenges and the storyline all act as vehicles for clinical intervention.

Quote from: jhkim on March 30, 2021, 02:50:28 PM

However, as long as the authors don't misrepresent themselves as legally licensed doctors, it's legal to give all sorts of bad advice - including pseudo-science. There are endless pseudo-science self-help books advising astrology, crystals, faith healing, etc. - including many forms of self-care. I hate pseudo-science, but I don't think it should be illegal. People need to come to science - it can't be forced on them.

It's legal to do all kinds of unethical things.  Doesn't make it right to do those things, except for people who define "right" as "what they can get away with".  The SJW's come for a legacy that was awfully proud of fighting against unethical behavior.  I'm not saying that the SJW's understand that legacy.  I'm not saying that everyone from that legacy was entirely sincere.  The same people that were quick (and still are) to jump on the same unethical behavior in other contexts don't seem terribly bothered by these particular examples of it.  They were also quick to throw the law around.  We are way past the point where the left needs to answer for this double-standard. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 02:03:48 PM
This is just another example of uninformed pseudo-science from this crowd.  They see the term, decide it means whatever they think it means, and don't bother to go learn the differences.  Exactly the kind of person you want giving an improvised therapy session using counter-productive tools to an unbalanced person, right? People can be charged with a felony for encouraging a suicidal person to "do it".  Far as I'm concerned, going off half-cocked with "RPG theraphy" should at least set up the GM for a lawsuit.

Quote from: jhkim on March 30, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
I have no opinion on the RPG since I haven't read it.

However, as long as the authors don't misrepresent themselves as legally licensed doctors, it's legal to give all sorts of bad advice - including pseudo-science. There are endless pseudo-science self-help books advising astrology, crystals, faith healing, etc. - including many forms of self-care. I hate pseudo-science, but I don't think it should be illegal. People need to come to science - it can't be forced on them.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 05:56:42 PM
It's legal to do all kinds of unethical things.  Doesn't make it right to do those things, except for people who define "right" as "what they can get away with".  The SJW's come for a legacy that was awfully proud of fighting against unethical behavior.  I'm not saying that the SJW's understand that legacy.  I'm not saying that everyone from that legacy was entirely sincere.  The same people that were quick (and still are) to jump on the same unethical behavior in other contexts don't seem terribly bothered by these particular examples of it.  They were also quick to throw the law around.  We are way past the point where the left needs to answer for this double-standard.

I'm not talking about SJWs in particular. I was speaking about pseudo-science of various sorts -- especially self-help / self-care advice. Overall, it seems to me that pseudo-scientific self-help advice goes across the political spectrum, from conservative Christian prayer and faith healing to New Age crystals and so forth. While there are unethical profiteers -- a lot of the people selling pseudo-science really are true believers. They believe and use the methods they are selling to others - whether that's faith healing or crystal therapy.

Again, I'm not saying it's right - but I don't think it helps to make it illegal and sue anyone who tries to promote pseudo-science.

Apropos RPGs and real therapy, there have been a bunch of genuine psychological studies using real role-playing games - including some where trained psychologists reviewed their use of RPGs. I collected a bunch of references here:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

I particularly recall this article entitled "Therapy is Fantasy". It's from 1988, and is a case study of a patient who was engaged in RPGs, and used the same character across a number of traditional RPGs such as Call of Cthulhu.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/hughes/therapy_is_fantasy.html

I'm of the opinion people should be allowed to inflict whatever stupidity they wanted on themselves.

I think stuff like fat self-care is just....disgusting wish fulfillment, but nothing more insidious than that. At least not any more so insidious than the obesity positivity movement as a whole.

And I'm a guy that lost 40 pounds over like 6 months. You can do it.

Quote from: jhkim on March 30, 2021, 06:18:51 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 02:03:48 PM
This is just another example of uninformed pseudo-science from this crowd.  They see the term, decide it means whatever they think it means, and don't bother to go learn the differences.  Exactly the kind of person you want giving an improvised therapy session using counter-productive tools to an unbalanced person, right? People can be charged with a felony for encouraging a suicidal person to "do it".  Far as I'm concerned, going off half-cocked with "RPG theraphy" should at least set up the GM for a lawsuit.

Quote from: jhkim on March 30, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
I have no opinion on the RPG since I haven't read it.

However, as long as the authors don't misrepresent themselves as legally licensed doctors, it's legal to give all sorts of bad advice - including pseudo-science. There are endless pseudo-science self-help books advising astrology, crystals, faith healing, etc. - including many forms of self-care. I hate pseudo-science, but I don't think it should be illegal. People need to come to science - it can't be forced on them.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 05:56:42 PM
It's legal to do all kinds of unethical things.  Doesn't make it right to do those things, except for people who define "right" as "what they can get away with".  The SJW's come for a legacy that was awfully proud of fighting against unethical behavior.  I'm not saying that the SJW's understand that legacy.  I'm not saying that everyone from that legacy was entirely sincere.  The same people that were quick (and still are) to jump on the same unethical behavior in other contexts don't seem terribly bothered by these particular examples of it.  They were also quick to throw the law around.  We are way past the point where the left needs to answer for this double-standard.

I'm not talking about SJWs in particular. I was speaking about pseudo-science of various sorts -- especially self-help / self-care advice. Overall, it seems to me that pseudo-scientific self-help advice goes across the political spectrum, from conservative Christian prayer and faith healing to New Age crystals and so forth. While there are unethical profiteers -- a lot of the people selling pseudo-science really are true believers. They believe and use the methods they are selling to others - whether that's faith healing or crystal therapy.

Again, I'm not saying it's right - but I don't think it helps to make it illegal and sue anyone who tries to promote pseudo-science.

Apropos RPGs and real therapy, there have been a bunch of genuine psychological studies using real role-playing games - including some where trained psychologists reviewed their use of RPGs. I collected a bunch of references here:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

I particularly recall this article entitled "Therapy is Fantasy". It's from 1988, and is a case study of a patient who was engaged in RPGs, and used the same character across a number of traditional RPGs such as Call of Cthulhu.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/hughes/therapy_is_fantasy.html

From your own compilation:

Quote
Ascherman, Lee I. "The Impact of Unstructured Games of Fantasy and Role Playing on an Inpatient Unit for Adolescents", International Journal of Group Psychotherapy, Vol. 43 (3), July 1993, P. 335-344
    Researchers brought a role-playing game into a severe psychiatric inpatient setting. Their results found that unstructured playing in a fantasy world reinforced pathologies and resistance to therapy.

Seems like any positive impact needs the use to be supervised by a therapist. Which tracs with all we know about therapy.

As for many other studies that "show" a relation between some bad traits and TTRPGs... Gee, wonder why a bunch of nerds playing TTRPGs back in the 70's-90's felt social alienation?

Same study could be done with people of the same age back then around any geek hobby/interest with the same results. Maybe because we were bullied by the beautiful people?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 30, 2021, 08:45:10 PM
Same study could be done with people of the same age back then around any geek hobby/interest with the same results. Maybe because we were bullied by the beautiful people?

I didn't have this experience. The only real scorn I remember came years later. I went to the joint birthday party of a woman I'd known when we were teenagers, and her 10 month (!) older sister. They made scornful mention of my teenaged interest in rpgs, and I said, "And I'm still into them!" and they were obviously disgusted. But... one of them had just divorced because she wanted an "open relationship" and her husband didn't, and the other was an alcoholic. So: a couple of people who'd failed in life considered me a failure. This did not hurt me.

Aside from that nobody's ever cared either way.

I think this is a bit like when some woman does a bodybuilding competition and whacks it up on Instagram and says, "Don't believe the naysayers! People told me I couldn't do it and here I am!" and if you know the woman, you think, "hey, I remember when you started, and everyone was nothing but supportive and encouraging."

People often take their own self-doubt and self-hatred and project it onto others. "Well, I think I'm awful, so everyone else must think I'm awful, too."

Gaming. Nobody cares.

[double-post]

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 30, 2021, 08:52:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 30, 2021, 08:45:10 PM
Same study could be done with people of the same age back then around any geek hobby/interest with the same results. Maybe because we were bullied by the beautiful people?

I didn't have this experience. The only real scorn I remember came years later. I went to the joint birthday party of a woman I'd known when we were teenagers, and her 10 month (!) older sister. They made scornful mention of my teenaged interest in rpgs, and I said, "And I'm still into them!" and they were obviously disgusted. But... one of them had just divorced because she wanted an "open relationship" and her husband didn't, and the other was an alcoholic. So: a couple of people who'd failed in life considered me a failure. This did not hurt me.

Aside from that nobody's ever cared either way.

I think this is a bit like when some woman does a bodybuilding competition and whacks it up on Instagram and says, "Don't believe the naysayers! People told me I couldn't do it and here I am!" and if you know the woman, you think, "hey, I remember when you started, and everyone was nothing but supportive and encouraging."

People often take their own self-doubt and self-hatred and project it onto others. "Well, I think I'm awful, so everyone else must think I'm awful, too."

Gaming. Nobody cares.

Yeah, I must have self-inflicted the beatings...

Your "argument" is a logical falacy, argument from incredulity. And yet there's tons of people that had the exact same experience I had. But because you (who I bet are way younger than me) didn't then it never happened right?

I was just thinking that someone like Kyle could write a really good live action Fat Self Care game where you go to the gym and work out.

Quote from: Warder on March 29, 2021, 07:10:15 PM
Could the game lead into the player becoming less fat by employing irl excercises to gain exp? If so its a gain, no matter how small. Seriously, the body and mind needs it. Ofc this is not this thing, reinforcing obesity as normal and coupling tabletop rpgs with it is not what the obese person needs.

As mentioend elsewhere. There actually are some journal-type games where you advance by doing exercises. Rather well done too.
This RPG in question though feels like the diametric opposite. Not sure if its pushing a "positive body image" agenda or just woke for a buck, or just ill thought out but with good intentions.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 02:03:48 PM
"Roleplay" as a psychological therapy shares almost nothing with "Roleplay" in gaming, except that the term is the same and it does involve "roles".  In particular, the use of your imagination is very different.  Using gaming roleplay in place of the therapy could in many cases be actively harmful to a person who might otherwise benefit from the therapy done properly by a trained professional. 

This is just another example of uninformed pseudo-science from this crowd.

Exactly. We see this over and over in various forms and sooner or later its going to end badly. If it has not already.

Quote from: jhkim on March 30, 2021, 06:18:51 PM
Apropos RPGs and real therapy, there have been a bunch of genuine psychological studies using real role-playing games - including some where trained psychologists reviewed their use of RPGs. I collected a bunch of references here:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

I particularly recall this article entitled "Therapy is Fantasy". It's from 1988, and is a case study of a patient who was engaged in RPGs, and used the same character across a number of traditional RPGs such as Call of Cthulhu.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/hughes/therapy_is_fantasy.html

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 30, 2021, 08:45:10 PM
From your own compilation:

Quote
Ascherman, Lee I. "The Impact of Unstructured Games of Fantasy and Role Playing on an Inpatient Unit for Adolescents", International Journal of Group Psychotherapy, Vol. 43 (3), July 1993, P. 335-344
    Researchers brought a role-playing game into a severe psychiatric inpatient setting. Their results found that unstructured playing in a fantasy world reinforced pathologies and resistance to therapy.

Seems like any positive impact needs the use to be supervised by a therapist. Which tracs with all we know about therapy.

As for many other studies that "show" a relation between some bad traits and TTRPGs... Gee, wonder why a bunch of nerds playing TTRPGs back in the 70's-90's felt social alienation?

Same study could be done with people of the same age back then around any geek hobby/interest with the same results. Maybe because we were bullied by the beautiful people?

That study is of people with severe problems. I don't think it necessarily generalizes to everyone else.

Overall, I think the studies show that RPGs don't cause problems, and are associated with a number of positive traits. It's not proven psychologically, but I think creative endeavors like RPGs are a very positive experience. It's not a cure for anything, but like music and other hobbies - I think creative social gaming is mentally healthy, and doesn't require a trained psychologist to be so. It's more healthy and engaging than watching TV or scrolling social media.

And yeah, nerds who weren't into the "normal" interests back in the 70s to 90s were disconnected from mainstream culture. But I don't think social alienation is a psychologically unhealthy trait. Anyone who isn't in the mainstream culture has social alienation - whether from being an immigrant, Jewish or Muslim, and so forth. That's just a difference, not a bad trait. Sometimes the mainstream culture sucks and it's better to not be a part of it.

Quote from: jhkim on March 31, 2021, 02:00:51 PM
That study is of people with severe problems. I don't think it necessarily generalizes to everyone else.

Overall, I think the studies show that RPGs don't cause problems, and are associated with a number of positive traits. It's not proven psychologically, but I think creative endeavors like RPGs are a very positive experience. It's not a cure for anything, but like music and other hobbies - I think creative social gaming is mentally healthy, and doesn't require a trained psychologist to be so. It's more healthy and engaging than watching TV or scrolling social media.

RPGs used as "therapy" by untrained people are potentially damaging to a whole lot more people than those with severe problems.  The difference, is that a person who doesn't have a severe problem has a much better shot--if only intuition--at recognizing that confusing an RPG with therapy is a bad situation.  I'll put it in an analogy that perhaps more people can get: 

Think of an RPG as a party where alcohol is served.  Most people, that's neither here nor there.  They aren't alcoholics or bad drunks or even if they do go a little overboard from time to time, they've got ways of mitigating the fallout before it spirals out of control.  That one friend that is a severe alcoholic is the analog to a person with a psychological disorder (or in some cases, not merely an analog).  Now think about the close circle of that alcoholic.  Unless they have extremely strong, well-adjusted personalities, there is going to be some psychological warping from dealing with the alcoholic.  "Enabling" is just the tip of the iceberg.  And of course those kind of problems rarely occur singly--they come in bunches, and are difficult for even a professional to unravel sometime.  There's a good reason why the professional therapist is talking to more than the person with the obvious problem.  (Like all analogies, it's not perfect, but I think conveys the distinction I'm trying to make here.)

RPGs used "properly" as an RPG session that is a creative outlet, not a therapy session, are great, even sometimes for people with a severe problem (assuming the group is willing and able to cope without getting warped).  It becomes part of the "normal life" support network that everyone needs and that people with problems have a difficult time getting.  Running that kind of session is having a party where you don't let your drunk friends drive home and if necessary you sometimes do a different kind of party that will not set back your severe alcoholic friend.  Running an RPG session as "therapy" is inviting your severe alcoholic friend and some of his circle to a booze fest--and then slipping a drug into random drinks with the idea that this will counter the resulting problems.  Anyone with a clear view of what is happening will be pissed off.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 01, 2021, 07:21:40 AM
RPGs used "properly" as an RPG session that is a creative outlet, not a therapy session, are great, even sometimes for people with a severe problem (assuming the group is willing and able to cope without getting warped).  It becomes part of the "normal life" support network that everyone needs and that people with problems have a difficult time getting.  Running that kind of session is having a party where you don't let your drunk friends drive home and if necessary you sometimes do a different kind of party that will not set back your severe alcoholic friend.  Running an RPG session as "therapy" is inviting your severe alcoholic friend and some of his circle to a booze fest--and then slipping a drug into random drinks with the idea that this will counter the resulting problems.  Anyone with a clear view of what is happening will be pissed off.

This seems like previous views I've had to struggle with - especially from the 1980s. As it was explained to me, playing an RPG might *seem* safe - but actually it was playing with fire. Some RPGs were run and played safely - but if I wasn't careful, the DM could slip in some serious psychological stuff into my game, and I could go too far, become addicted and spiral into a warped and unhealthy fantasy world. This is ​the view dramatized in the novel and movie "Mazes and Monsters".

Based on what I've read of the psychological studies and my experience, I don't think this is true.

Tabletop RPGs don't have the potential to be drugs surreptitiously slipped into drinks. They're played openly with others - and everything that happens is plainly spoken. Yes, someone could attempt to psychologically manipulate another during an RPG - but they could just as easily try to mess with them on a sports team, in a poetry circle, or any other social scene. The teammates on someone's soccer team might think he's feeling down and conspire to help him psychologically -- but even if their efforts to help him are misguided, it's not the equivalent of slipping him a drug. It's just bad advice. The same in a tabletop RPG. Like any social scene, RPGs can potentially be a bad influence on people if one is playing with bad people - but I don't think they are like drugs.

There are activities that can be addictive - like gambling. However, I don't think that tabletop RPGs are dangerous in that way. I've seen some studies of online video games regarding addiction, but none with tabletop RPGs.