Quote from: misterguignol;450369Also, Eberron's gods are necessarily really gods.  Or so I'm told; I haven't read anything from the setting, just heard other people mention this around.

Yes. At least gods were never seen, nor have they sent messangers or such. The educated in the five nations are usually convinced that clerics gain their spells from believing and ritual. The nation of Breland tried to train Clerics of patriotism during the war who would draw their power from believing in Breland.


There's also the Shadow of Yesterday. They use it as a slogan: "No gods. Just people."

Quote from: Esgaldil;450359There's an RPG for the Tales of the Black Company books, in which there are extremely powerful beings but not really gods, if I recall correctly.  Gods tend to be absent, fictional, or ambiguous in the stories of Robert E. Howard, as well, which is hopefully reflected in whatever product allows you to call yourself a Cimmerian.

It's quite disturbing in Howard. Pretty much all the supernatural entities that definately exist are downright evil. I'm surprised the people haven't rejected gods altogether with the sort that show up.

Quote from: Ian Warner;450574It's quite disturbing in Howard. Pretty much all the supernatural entities that definately exist are downright evil. I'm surprised the people haven't rejected gods altogether with the sort that show up.

To be entirely fair, "The Phoenix On The Sword" (IIRC the very first Conan tale) does have a bit of benign supernatural intervention.

But you're right in that the vast majority of Conan stories portray all things supernatural as fucked-up.

Quote from: misterguignol;450369BECMI/Cyclopedia D&D has "Immortals," not deities...but the distinction seems a bit fine.

Yes, particularly since they act exactly like Gods do in any other setting.  I'm fairly sure the use of the term "Immortals" was specifically because of the whole "satanic panic" that was going on at the time, and lily-livered post-gygax TSR was fond of replacing words that would be somehow "controversial".  You could thus honestly claim that nowhere in basic D&D did characters "worship gods".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;450737Yes, particularly since they act exactly like Gods do in any other setting.  I'm fairly sure the use of the term "Immortals" was specifically because of the whole "satanic panic" that was going on at the time, and lily-livered post-gygax TSR was fond of replacing words that would be somehow "controversial".  You could thus honestly claim that nowhere in basic D&D did characters "worship gods".

RPGPundit

I am sure that is the entire reasoning behind the use of the term "immortals." Mystara did use the mortal origins of the immortals for some creative game background, though, in a lemons-out-of lemonade situation.

Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;450306Also Tunnels and Trolls doesn't have a specific priestly class and pretty much doesn't mention gods at all.

That is one of the things I like about T & T myself, though there is a Priest class in one of the old issues of Sorceror's Apprentice. There are occasionally 'priests' appearing in the solo adventures, though largely these seem to be wizards with attitude problems - certainly wizards in T&T can do most of the healing type stuff D&D players associate with clerics.

I take a slight exception to the fact just because there's a cleric class, that means there are "gods". I mean look at the Athar in Planescape. They still cast spells yet deny most other gods exist. Same is true in Dark Sun, no actual clerics (hell I don't even recall any PALADINS in that place!)

The Dark Powers aren't truly gods and yet there are gods in Ravenloft...

Anyway just some cents I offer.

FYI, the Silver Flame is abstract more than a divinity, especially since it has a darker aspect since it has one of the Lords of Dust's 'bosses" sealed in there.

Quote from: Cole;450741I am sure that is the entire reasoning behind the use of the term "immortals." Mystara did use the mortal origins of the immortals for some creative game background, though, in a lemons-out-of lemonade situation.

Yes, it did turn out to be one of the good setting details of Mystara, that with a bit of research, PCs could find out the mortal stories of many of the immortals, and that it delineated a clear path and "end goal" for a PC's career.

RPGPundit

I can't think of any good reason not to include gods in a fantasy setting. From a gameplay perspective, atheism is just boring. You might be able to craft some interesting plots around the premise that gods are myths perpetuated by the elite, but that would purely be a setting gimmick, and would risk the game being labelled as militant atheist wank-fantasy.

Quote from: Cole;450741Mystara did use the mortal origins of the immortals for some creative game background, though, in a lemons-out-of lemonade situation.

Quote from: RPGPundit;450791Yes, it did turn out to be one of the good setting details of Mystara, that with a bit of research, PCs could find out the mortal stories of many of the immortals, and that it delineated a clear path and "end goal" for a PC's career.

And that is the single element I like best about BECMI and the Known World.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;450817I can't think of any good reason not to include gods in a fantasy setting. From a gameplay perspective, atheism is just boring. You might be able to craft some interesting plots around the premise that gods are myths perpetuated by the elite, but that would purely be a setting gimmick, and would risk the game being labelled as militant atheist wank-fantasy.

Or it could be just absent from the setting and not be an issue at all. The silly way most med-fan RPGs treat religions in their setting display more atheist militantism than Reve de Dragon for instance, IMO YMMV...

Quote from: boulet;450825Or it could be just absent from the setting and not be an issue at all. The silly way most med-fan RPGs treat religions in their setting display more atheist militantism than Reve de Dragon for instance, IMO YMMV...

But then you're just subtracting an element from the setting that can provide hundreds of potential plot threads. Unless the writer is so opposed to the notion of active deities (or lacks confidence in his ability to do them justice) that omitting them is considered addition by subtraction.

Arnulfe - I agree that this is improvement by subtraction, but it does add options that would not otherwise exist.  Player Characters are constructing meaning and purpose from their own (imaginary) lives, rather than having access to beings of pure Meaning.  The absence of Deities makes the kings (of whatever nature) of the world the most powerful beings, period.  Dark Sun is more hopeless than it would be if there were beings to pray to for deliverance, and that hopelessness is part of what fuels the setting.  The absence of Gods can make it much harder for Player Characters to know if they are doing the right thing, or if the world is doomed, or if there is any point to any actions.  Another implication of Godlessness is that the afterlife is absent or unregulated, which adds an extra level of tension to mortality.  A world in which religions exist but Deities are not constantly intervening or showing their favourite ones with miraculous powers allows for the permutations of religious history seen in our world, or other varieties of religion more subtle than the typical "Moradin is the Lawful Good God of Dwarves" pantheons of fantasy RPGs.  These effects can largely be achieved without stating definitively that there are no Gods of any sort, but clarity is sometimes a virtue in a setting.

There are certainly plenty of fine fantasy worlds in which there are no Gods or might as well be no Gods, few of which can be fairly labeled militantly atheistic.  One fantasy setting I was just thinking of in which there may be Powers but no Gods is Earthsea, which I quite like.  The white barbarians did have gods, but those seem to have been mostly debunked/overthrown by the series' end.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;450832But then you're just subtracting an element from the setting that can provide hundreds of potential plot threads. Unless the writer is so opposed to the notion of active deities (or lacks confidence in his ability to do them justice) that omitting them is considered addition by subtraction.

I can see your point in the case of a setting where religion is identified as a major verissimilitude "must have". But it doesn't have to be that way for every med-fan setting.

In the case of Reve de Dragon, religion isn't necessary because the cosmology is provided by magicians and philosophers. And dragons, who dream the setting, don't match the criteria of divinity, they're just the best explanation of how the world exists and the phenomenons experienced by its inhabitants. Now you could add deities that would transcend dreams and the existing cosmology but it would be superfluous. And I can assure you that there's already a shit load of plot ideas available without adding religion to this setting.

Desolation doesn't have gods, per sé -- only two primal, impersonal entities embodying creation and destruction. They are often part of the setting's pantheons but don't respond to worship, and if divine beings actually exist, they don't make themselves known. That works pretty well for such a post-apocalyptic fantasy setting, since if the gods existed, why wouldn't they have done something about the apocalypse or its aftermath?