Quote from: Phizel;220653Also who says the PLAYERS have to be the good guys?

In many cases, that's the game you're playing.  

Marvel Superheroes... not Marvel Supervillains.

There's a lot in Basic D&D that sets things up for the players to have their characters as the heroes and not the villains.

If your character in Vampire acts too evil he gets turned into an NPC.

etc.

What...no popcorn? At least I got a sig out of it!

Quote from: The_Shadow;220744What...no popcorn? At least I got a sig out of it!

I don't know what offends me more, that he's talking in circles that don't mean anything, or that he's so ignorant of GI Joe he can't even identify the fundamental conflict of values between the Joes and COBRA (classic post-war liberal establishment vs right wing corporate fascism).

Deconstructing GI Joe is fun. Claiming GI Joe is a postmodern deconstruction of heroic action/fantasy is so dumb it should be painful.

Quote from: RPGPundit;220493I would say, for starters, that any group that your PCs can't either join or fight is probably not going to be much use.

I think you have to walk the line here, and it's a fine one. Some groups that the PC's don't fight, and can't join , can be fun and useful-but like any tool they have their limits, and uses.

Quote from: StuartIn many cases, that's the game you're playing.

Marvel Superheroes... not Marvel Supervillains.

I don't feel bound by those sorts of definitions. Some of the best games I've played have been completely contrary to the game's original concept. To me it's like buying Lego's and then someone coming along and saying "You can only use these legos to build what's on the box. Nothing else."

Silly.

Quote from: Jackalope;220750I don't know what offends me more, that he's talking in circles that don't mean anything, or that he's so ignorant of GI Joe he can't even identify the fundamental conflict of values between the Joes and COBRA (classic post-war liberal establishment vs right wing corporate fascism).

Well, look who G4 decided to compare Cobra Commander to in this "Yes, We Shall" - Vote Cobra Commander '08 video.

Quote from: John Morrow;220757Well, look who G4 decided to compare Cobra Commander to in this "Yes, We Shall" - Vote Cobra Commander '08 video.

I can't understand a word of that, and have no idea what it's referencing.  The Cobra Commander announces his candidacy video made me laugh though.

COBRA is, in actuality, a violent right-wing paramilitary group dedicated to overthrowing the post-New Deal government and replacing it with a neofascist government.  It's funded by several corporations, and its elite cadre -- the Crimson Guard -- includes senators, congressmen, and members of the American military.

COBRA is actually a really awesome bad guy organization, and anyone who reads  the current Devil's Due series knows that it's far from childish.  It's too bad the Joes are so...village peopleish.

This over-defense of "G.I.JOE" is starting to make the FR & BANESTORM Settings look like Shakespeare by comparison.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Serious Paul;220752I don't feel bound by those sorts of definitions. Some of the best games I've played have been completely contrary to the game's original concept. To me it's like buying Lego's and then someone coming along and saying "You can only use these legos to build what's on the box. Nothing else."

Silly.

You can sprinkle them on your cereal for some extra fibre if you want to -- they're your Legos.

And you can take any games you own and do all sorts of wild and crazy mods and house-rules on them.

But at some point you're not really playing the original game anymore.  You're playing a new game based on the old one.  Nothing wrong with that, but there's also nothing wrong with someone saying that's not really what the original game was about either.

Quote from: Jackalope;220773I can't understand a word of that, and have no idea what it's referencing.  The Cobra Commander announces his candidacy video made me laugh though.

You should try to understand it.  It's hilarious.

Quote from: Jackalope;220773COBRA is, in actuality, a violent right-wing paramilitary group dedicated to overthrowing the post-New Deal government and replacing it with a neofascist government.  It's funded by several corporations, and its elite cadre -- the Crimson Guard -- includes senators, congressmen, and members of the American military.

Uh, huh.  This is the same meaning of "right-wing" that uses it as a euphemism for "evil" such that old hard-line communists are called "right-wing", right?  I think you are projecting your own politics on to the good guys and bad guys quite a bit there.  The Venture Brothers parody of the theme seemed to poke fun at them more as what I remember, typical Reagan-era pro-military right-wing icons.

Quote from: Jackalope;220773COBRA is actually a really awesome bad guy organization, and anyone who reads  the current Devil's Due series knows that it's far from childish.  It's too bad the Joes are so...village peopleish.

The Venture Brothers parody (link above) plays on that, too.

Quote from: Stuart;220781But at some point you're not really playing the original game anymore.

I'm fine with that.

QuoteYou're playing a new game based on the old one.

I think that's splitting hairs, but fine.

QuoteNothing wrong with that, but there's also nothing wrong with someone saying that's not really what the original game was about either.

I agree, although I tend to think the beauty of games is that the only purpose they serve is to entertain. As long as they do that then, in my book, there is no wrong way to play them.

Quote from: John Morrow;220791Uh, huh.  This is the same meaning of "right-wing" that uses it as a euphemism for "evil" such that old hard-line communists are called "right-wing", right?  I think you are projecting your own politics on to the good guys and bad guys quite a bit there.

No...I mean right-wing as in members of a conservative or reactionary political party, or those opposing extensive political reform.

I think you meant to use the stronger version of No... NO

Just giving the two of you quarrelers some grief. I'm just happy we're on page two by now!


As a side note, I'd like to say that a great way to test an RPG overall is to use the system and setting for opposite ends of the spectrum and see if it still feels like the game as it normally plays out (L5R: play as Eta or Oni; Amber: play as Shadowlings, or Chaosites during the PatternFall war; D&D 4e: play as a gnome druid and half-orc bard... Ok, bad example on that last one, but I had to make the joke before someone else did).


I enjoy using organizations and as complex, diverse and well-thought out as the backgrounds can get, the players don't tend to fish out all of the information that is made available in the game (unless an organization is the true focus of the campaign and requires infiltration work and such, which would be great with the right gaming group). So for the most part, I keep organizations (good or evil or neutral) narrow-minded about specific goals.

That's the bottom line: people get organized to get things done. Reasons for such and such individuals being a part of the organization is what will give you the variants within the organization and the flavor in the game. The Leader (or Leaders, or council or whatever the top of the hierarchy consists of) will set the standard for a lot of what the organization's actions are like.

If goals are obscure, that's cool too (unless they're not a secret organization).

I go with the flow too much to apply a formula per se, but I think defining specific aspects of the organization and making sure it is ripe with plot hook ideas for GMs is key.

Define the following and you're pretty good to go:

Name of organization:
Primary objective:
Secondary objective:
Secret objective (optional; also note that unless the campaign revolves around the organization, the PCs will likely never find out):

Leadership:
Hierarchy:
Secret leader (optional; the PCs are more likely to find that out, especially if it's an NPC or group of NPCs whom they frequent throughout the campaign):

Headquarters:
Fallback HQ/Bunker/Hideout:
Franchise HQ (optional; depends how large and widespread the organization is):
Secret Meeting Place (somewhere public maybe, where conversations can be overheard):

Goon type 1:
Goon type 2:
Goon type 3:

Uniform/Secret Handshake/Password/etc.:


That's a good start I think... What else?

What makes a good villain depends on the genre and tone of the game. Ultimately, you want them to be memorable and distinct from one another, pursuing distinct goals that the PCs can become aware of and deal with.

Frankly, if I had a cool anarchist organisation striving to overthrow the kingdom that was highly adaptable etc. like Phizel describes, I'd probably make their opponents - the kingdom's military - be more like Jackalope's description, just so that the PCs could see the difference between the two even more clearly, and to show why they don't simply reconcile and compromise.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;220895What makes a good villain depends on the genre and tone of the game. Ultimately, you want them to be memorable and distinct from one another, pursuing distinct goals that the PCs can become aware of and deal with.

Frankly, if I had a cool anarchist organisation striving to overthrow the kingdom that was highly adaptable etc. like Phizel describes, I'd probably make their opponents - the kingdom's military - be more like Jackalope's description, just so that the PCs could see the difference between the two even more clearly, and to show why they don't simply reconcile and compromise.

You mean the way Jackalope and Phizel don't want to reconcile and compromise? j/k

I agree there, organizations are flavorful and instead of focusing on what makes an organization work in a fantasy setting, we could perhaps look at things that will not work and eliminate or at least strive to stay away from those.

Any published RPG examples of organizations that do not work as intended or were poorly designed?

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;220897You mean the way Jackalope and Phizel don't want to reconcile and compromise? j/k

I agree there, organizations are flavorful and instead of focusing on what makes an organization work in a fantasy setting, we could perhaps look at things that will not work and eliminate or at least strive to stay away from those.

Any published RPG examples of organizations that do not work as intended or were poorly designed?

The Champions of Rajaat in Dark Sun, as opposed to the same personalities described as "Sorceror Kings".

I don't know how familiar you are with DS canon, but basically it started off with a bunch of Sorceror-Kings who ran all the cities, granted divine powers to templars, and were generally ancient, evil, and near-omnipotent.

Then, a whole bunch of novels came out, along with the 2nd edition boxed set, that revealed the TRUE SECRET HISTORY FOR REAL and told us that they were all part of some ancient campaign to purge Athas of humanoids, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The trick is, this did nothing in game. The PCs had no way of finding this out in play unless the DM handed it to them; learning it changed nothing about the possibilities of the setting while seeming like it should; PCs had no reason to really care even if they did find it out. It was just storywanking. Worse yet, it took a mysterious set of villains whose coolness derived in part from their vague origins and the unclear limits to their powers, and laid it all out fairly explicitly.