Hey Phizel,
 If no one else has said it yet : WELCOME to The SITE Forums.

You posted some interesting comments there.
 You know you can ignore Jackals if you want to.

When I ran my BANESTORM game , one of my players was part of the Caithness "CIA" that was directly loyal to King Conall IV. His cover was as a ranger/scout type.  I decided to go with the idea that it was still a relatively young organization and corruption had not crept in yet.

In a fantasy world I figure that it might take 100 to 200 years for corruption to start to happen in traditionally "GOOD" type organizations and for there to be a considerable drift in their. Around that time schisms probably develop and new factional groups will break off from the original one.

- Ed C.

QuoteWELCOME to The SITE Forums.

Thank you Koltar.

QuoteWhen I ran my BANESTORM game , one of my players was part of the Caithness "CIA" that was directly loyal to King Conall IV. His cover was as a ranger/scout type. I decided to go with the idea that it was still a relatively young organization and corruption had not crept in yet.

I did not think in terms of "organizations" until the Forgotten Realms  came out. I thought at the time it was cool, but unhistorical and suited to fantasy. I would later learn about the Strelzy, Assassins, Tuggee, and I began to see the Knights (Templars, Hospitalers, Tuetonic Knights) as another form of organization not as Chivalrous bodies isolated from the politics of the setting, but as integrated parts of the whole. The Forgotten Realms was a revelation to me in this. It gave me context. It helped by adding a whole new level of intrigue to my campaign worlds and I still have a weak spot for the Realms because of it.

Quote from: Phizel;220653Jackalope I think you're missing the point most heroic fiction agrees with me not you.

No, you're wrong.  Which is why you are incapable of supplying examples.

QuoteHeroic fiction did not begin with the Saturday morning serials that influenced George Lucas into writing Indy and Star Wars. Evil organizations and evil powers in these other sources including Saruman's in LOTR were far more complicated than the Post Modernist would imply. I am not a Post Modernist and I don't think GI JOE is a useful source for designing a formidable enemy. Why base your ideas on inferior workmanship it requires no effort to create hollow minions with no motivations, no capabilities, no intellegence. I am not writing fiction I'm running a game if the organization is not capable of being a real threat to my players they will not treat it with respect.

First, you are completely misusing the word postmodernist.  Where are you getting this idea that GI Joe is postmodern?  That's idiotic.

Second, you are arguing against a completely fabricated strawman, in a desperate and pathetic attempt to obscure the very real fact that you have no substantive argument.

Nowhere did I say that a good villain organization should have no motivations, no capabilities, and be completely unintelligent.  If you wish to argue that a good villain organization needs to also be COMPETENT, then yes, I agree.  Outside of a comedy game, the villain does need to be an actual credible threat.  I thought that point was so obvious, and so true of all enemies, that it didn't actually need to be said.

QuoteIf Cobra is your idea of an evil organization then that is your player's problem not mine. I can't help that you don't understand why COBRA is not a useful model for a game about overcoming challenges.

This is meaningless blather, pretentious obfuscation of your lack of a substantive argument.  You're bluffing.

QuoteUnlike you I don't think Good and Evil are wholly the provence of juvenile fiction and the adult mind balks at such inanities. I admit I've read far more history than comic books  and my idea of heroism is informed much more by Howard Hawks or John Ford than by TV shows I watched when I was 10.

Yeah, and I read philosophy.  Have you ever read Neitzsche's Beyond Good and Evil?  How about History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil by Dr. Paul Carsus.  That's from the 15th century.  You ever read anything from the 15th century?  Or how about Joseph Campbell? You ever read The Hero With 1,000 Faces?

RPGs aren't high literature.  They aren't art.  They're entertainment.

QuoteMy critcisms of your juvenile ideas of evil was purely pointing out that player in an RPG are not the pawns of a pulp fiction writer, but thinking individuals in an immersive enviroment. The Enemy should be too.

Yeah, keep jerking off, swineboy.  You haven't heard jack shit about my ideas of evil,  You've only heard what I think the necessary ingredients are to create a memorable and useful villain organization for heroic fantasy role-playing games (specifically D&D).  You've offered nothing in the way of an alternative, except to say I';m wrong and insult my ideas.

But you have no actual ARGUMENTS against my idea except some spurious uninformed bullshit and a bunch of fucking strawmen.  More importantly, you've offered NOTHING substantive as a counter.  You and Jim are the exact same type of diarrhetic asshole, nothing but useless self-aggrandizing crap flowing from your fingers and across the internet, but not a single fucking useful idea that might actually contribute positively to the conversation.

Go fuck yourself Phizel.

QuoteAlso who says the PLAYERS have to be the good guys?

Swine.  You don't know jack shit about heroic fantasy.  Get the fuck out of this conversation.  You're a fucking idiot, and your ideas and opinions are useless shit.

You're person who answers "Yes" to these questions:

Quote from: RPG Pundit1. Is your setting one where absolutely no one is truly heroic? Everyone has to be either wrong, evil, self-serving, ignorant, or some other "shade of gray"?

2. Are the apparent villains not true villains in your setting? Is the evil archwizard really just misunderstood? Is it all "morally relative", and the Orcs are only invading because their tribal lands were taken from them? Did the Dragon just attack because the ignorant humans were destroying the ecosystem? Is the Troll just acting out because he's sexually confused?

3. Are the PCs allowed to be heros? That is, are they allowed to change the setting, save the day? will what they do matters? or would that go against your marxist conception of history as being the product of material developments and not the actions of great men? Is your game/novel set up so that in the end nothing the PCs/protagonists did mattered at all?

11. Have you set up the campaign so the Players can't possibly win against the (non-)villain they are facing? are they doomed from the start? Are they just supposed to grin and accept it when the tentacle things from dimension x (who are only evil because they had a bad childhood) suck their brains out, because you've made it damn clear that there's NO way to beat them, and trying to get into combat is both wrong, forbidden by their superior, and won't work anyways?

13. Do you secretly despise regular RPGs, and want to run your game as an example of how the "traditional" RPG is flawed and needs to be replaced with your superior vision? Is your game setting really designed as a reaction to other game settings that you claim are "dead" as a genre? Do you hate LoTR with a passion?

If you answered yes to these questions, your game setting will suck donkey balls far more than the most blatantly stereotypical of vanilla settings.

Quote from: RPGPundit;220493You know, one of the things that was intensely appealing to me about FR, when it first came out as a setting, was the different organizations that existed in that setting: the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, the Harpers, etc.

What are the formula for making a good fantasy organization, vs. a bad one, as far as usability in an RPG campaign are concerned? Is there a formula? or set rules?

I would say, for starters, that any group that your PCs can't either join or fight is probably not going to be much use.

Beyond that?

In general I try to use realistic organizations drawing on history as much as possible. Using my judgment to decide which aspects are game worthy,fun and interesting. I do this because realism holds it own truth.

I also am aware of RPGs that use organizations that seem to have got it right. Like Ars Magica or like you said Forgotten Realms

Whatever the source I start with the initial premises and follow the consequences including the fact that PCs are involved. If I find not working then I tweak the premises and restart the process until I get something that works.

While I agree that organization serve as either PC adversary or something to join. A lot of my organization are what I would call service organization. The PC use them for some type of service they can't provide for themselves. The classic trope being going down to the local temple to be healed. In my campaign I have a thieves Guild known as the Beggars that several PCs used to get information.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/beggarsguild.html

Here are some writeups of various organizations. Some are wholy original others are transplanted from other games (like the Order of Thoth/Ars Magica)

The Brotherhood of the Lion
The main thieves guild of City-State and the one that had the most PC join. Started as a resistance group to the Tharian Overlords and became corrupted.
http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/brotherhoodlion.html

The Order of Thoth
Ars Magica's Order of Hermes transplanted and altered for a high magic setting. Also one organization that PC joined.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/magic.html

Hamakhis
My attempt at making a religion involving human sacrifice and that was "evil" but plausible. Note that in my cosmology all the gods hate the demons. However in the fight against the demons not all the gods emerged unscathed. Hamakhis was one of those changed by the wars.

Also this cosmology predate wizards 4th edition. I also have similar writeup for several others of my gods.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/hamakhis.html

In each of these four organizations I started with some premises and either borrowed or created elements that followed from the initial premises. When I had choices I picked those that seem the most fun or interesting to my group.

Jackalope: Sou basicaly you are saying that we aren't allowed to have shades of gray or to play evil, uncaring or covardly characters, otherwise we are swines who do not deserve to live because we are doing it wrong...

Look at some ancident myths... while the heroes were heroic, they aren't flawless and their worl is mostly "shades of grey"...

I. A place or places to find them. Even the most covert shadow organisation is usually active in some area, and can be contacted by turning the right vase upside down.

II. One or more bosses. If the boss is elected, it might be enough to explain how members become the boss. (Virtual Adepts in Mage are way cool that way.)

III. Some unique assets. They do not necessarily have to be a game mechanic, as long as they are iconic. Unique special rules certainly help, though.

IV. One or more goals. Goals that conflict with other organisations' goals are even better.

QuoteA good villain organization consists of rank and file who suspend critical thought and mindlessly obey a clearly identifiable group of leaders.

Sounds incompetent to me. Evil organizations built on a web of cells are not good evil organizations?

Sounds like moral relativism to me too. The bad guys aren't responsible for their own evil they're misguided by their leaders. My campaigns are immersive and the organizations need real motives otherwise they fall apart. And my players lose their willing suspension of disbelief.

I don't just hand players victories because they are good or bad. I want them to earn them. They want to earn them too.

As to what is and is not post modernism it is a mode of thought that tries to  undermine traditional ideas of heroism. Post Modernism dominated artistic world in the US starting with the rise of the New Left. One of the methods was to take away context from struggle if there is a more perfect example than the contextless struggle between GI JOE and COBRA. Post Modernism reduces all struggle to pointless contests of will. The "good guys" are the good guys because the writer says they are. The "bad guys" are the bad guys because they are the "good guys's" enemy. I reject this utterly.

My games are not art, but I have to dwell in them when I write and create for my games. If I find an idea silly it takes me out of my camapign and can destroy immersion for my players.  

Your examples are the Empire, Cobra, and the Legion of Doom (whoever they are). My examples are: Soviet Communism, the Medellin cartel, Al Queda, National Socialism. Which examples are more evocative of evil? Now apply their methods to fantasy organizations the Zhents are nazi like, the Red Wizards soviet like, the Cult of the Dragon as Al Qaeda, The Knights of the Shield as the Medellin Cartel. The analogs aren't perfect, but if you know history you can imagine how they will react to the on going political situation in a campaign. I can't imagine how cobra or the Empire would react if their enemies were more competent than the Joes and the Ewoks. Gross incompetence infects their organizations from top to bottom and yet they still chug on and on until the writer decides to put them out of their misery often through (literal)Deus Ex Machina (see Raiders of the Lost Ark).

Since we're writing about RPGs I don't see why genre fiction should be seen as more relavent, necessarily, than history. Most RPG tropes don't work in fiction and most fiction tropes don't work in D&D. I'm not a GNS guy I create a world for my PC's to explore and be suprised by. Not to force them into a story that's already written in my head. They may be shocked by what the good guys do, but in my world the good guys are still the good guys.

Quote from: Jackalope;220639Put your money where your mouth is, big shot.

Otherwise you just wrote a check you can't cash.

My new campaign begins this coming Sunday, 3pm, at Nilsiänkatu 10 in Helsinki. Basic Fantasy RPG (//www.basicfantasy.org) is the rule set we'll be using.

You're welcome to show up and see my creations in action.

Quote from: Phizel;220691Sounds incompetent to me. Evil organizations built on a web of cells are not good evil organizations.

It's true of every example you cited, you dumb fuck.  

QuoteSounds like moral relativism to me too. The bad guys aren't responsible for their own evil they're misguided by their leaders.

That's actually the exact opposite of what I said.  That is exactly how to build a bad villain organization.  

QuoteMy campaigns are immersive and the organizations need real motives otherwise they fall apart. And my players lose their willing suspension of disbelief.

Yeah, I'm sure your players really, really fucking care about the motives of Mook #6 as they're chopping him down.  Again, you're attacking a straw man.

QuoteI don't just hand players victories because they are good or bad. I want them to earn them. They want to earn them too.

Which has nothing to do with anything I've said.  More strawmen.

QuoteAs to what is and is not post modernism it is a mode of thought that tries to  undermine traditional ideas of heroism. Post Modernism dominated artistic world in the US starting with the rise of the New Left. One of the methods was to take away context from struggle if there is a more perfect example than the contextless struggle between GI JOE and COBRA. Post Modernism reduces all struggle to pointless contests of will. The "good guys" are the good guys because the writer says they are. The "bad guys" are the bad guys because they are the "good guys's" enemy. I reject this utterly.

This entire paragraph is the inchoate ramblings of a pseudointellectual twit trying to justify a poor argument.  And clearly you know nothing at all about GI Joe, because there most certainly is a context to the ongoing battle between the Joes and Cobra.  Cobra are the bad guys because they want to force America to adopt a fascist government.  The Joes are the good guys because, in addition to embodying American ideals,

To claim that GI Joe is an example of moral relativism is fucking RIDICULOUS.  It's a CHILDREN'S SHOW you fucking moron, i'ts not APOCALYPSE NOW.  You literally know NOTHING about what you're talking about.  You're an undereducated, pretentious shitstain, and with every post you make you only further prove that you are incapable of sustaining rational thought.

QuoteYour examples are the Empire, Cobra, and the Legion of Doom (whoever they are). My examples are: Soviet Communism, the Medellin cartel, Al Queda, National Socialism. Which examples are more evocative of evil?

You have the reading skills of a four year old.

I used Nazis as an example myself.  The Empire and COBRA are both modeled on the Nazis, so they are examples of organizations

In fact, every single example you just gave displays the very traits I recognized.  You are literally proving my point, you knuckledragging submoronic craphound.

The Legion of Doom (from Super Friends) was an example I gave for you to use to support your own argument.

QuoteSince we're writing about RPGs I don't see why genre fiction should be seen as more relavent, necessarily, than history. Most RPG tropes don't work in fiction and most fiction tropes don't work in D&D. I'm not a GNS guy I create a world for my PC's to explore and be suprised by. Not to force them into a story that's already written in my head. They may be shocked by what the good guys do, but in my world the good guys are still the good guys.

Now you're just waffling, piss-for-brains.  Go the fuck away.  You contribute nothing.  Nobody said shit about rail-roading, GNS, or any of that crap.  And you're right, literary tropes -- like villains with complex motivations -- don't work in RPGs.  To bad that supports my position.

I can just imagine your game.  "Hey guys, why don't you all gather around while I read you the lifestory of this guy you're going to kill in five rounds, so that you can truly appreciate how he came to be the man he is.  Blah blah blah..."

Quote from: JimLotFPMy new campaign begins this coming Sunday, 3pm, at Nilsiänkatu 10 in Helsinki. Basic Fantasy RPG (//www.basicfantasy.org) is the rule set we'll be using.

You're welcome to show up and see my creations in action.

Awww, he's talks game, but he's got nothing.  "Oh hey, I could give better advice on creating villain organizations, but instead I'll just invite you to move to a foreign country and play D&D with me for months so you can get a sense of the villain organizations I create."

Again, go fuck yourself, you shit-talking thread-crapping  half-wit.

Quote from: Jackalope;220716"Oh hey, I could give better advice on creating villain organizations, but instead I'll just invite you to move to a foreign country and play D&D with me for months so you can get a sense of the villain organizations I create."

The troll got trolled, isn't that hilarious.

You know name calling with compound nouns that feature cusswords really doesn't bolster your argument.

Just because Phizel wants a tad more reality in his fiction (or something close to it)  , that doesn't mean he's wrong.


- Ed C.

QuoteA good villain organization needs

You're the one who said these were "needed" traits and I disagreed. You said they "needed" all of these traits. I'm pointing out that it is not true that good villainous organizations can be built on other models.

I hope you are able to follow that.

QuoteI can just imagine your game. "Hey guys, why don't you all gather around while I read you the lifestory of this guy you're going to kill in five rounds, so that you can truly appreciate how he came to be the man he is. Blah blah blah..."

This is a straw man argument. Imagining arguments never presented by your opponent. I hope this clarifies things for you?  I was worried you didn't know what it was.

Quote from: RPGPundit;220493What are the formula for making a good fantasy organization, vs. a bad one, as far as usability in an RPG campaign are concerned? Is there a formula? or set rules?

Mary Sue NPCs are annoying.  So are Mary Sue organizations.  If the organization is all powerful, all knowing, or simply too good to be true, then don't go there or put some limits or tarnish on it.

Quote from: Koltar;220718You know name calling with compound nouns that feature cusswords really doesn't bolster your argument.

Just because Phizel wants a tad more reality in his fiction (or something close to it)  , that doesn't mean he's wrong.


- Ed C.

You're right Koltar, but I'm really appreciating the entertainment value of Jack's passionate use of profanity. Also, the flip side is that Phizel fired the first shot of this flame war, and just because he might not value Jack's ideas about what makes for evil organizations doesn't make Jack automatically wrong. Some people might appreciate less sophisticated ideas concerning their gaming and appreciate Jack's approach to the bad guys. By immediately attacking Jacks ideas and presenting his own opinions as some kind of inargueable truth Phizel did come across as a bit arrogant. They are both talking about individual tastes, any claims to the contrary are inaccurate.

Quote from: John Morrow;220729Mary Sue NPCs are annoying.  So are Mary Sue organizations.  If the organization is all powerful, all knowing, or simply too good to be true, then don't go there or put some limits or tarnish on it.

This is what I was going to say. The main issue I've always had with the Forgotten Realms is the prevalence of these kinds of characters and groups. Since I personally like espionage in games that I run, I almost always go for the kinds of groups Phizel has described... shadowy cells working against the heroes, villains with the public faces of heroes themselves, groups on both sides of a conflict with motivations that could be considered worthy (like the issue of environmental protection versus the need for resources).