You know, one of the things that was intensely appealing to me about FR, when it first came out as a setting, was the different organizations that existed in that setting: the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, the Harpers, etc.

What are the formula for making a good fantasy organization, vs. a bad one, as far as usability in an RPG campaign are concerned? Is there a formula? or set rules?

I would say, for starters, that any group that your PCs can't either join or fight is probably not going to be much use.

Beyond that?

RPGPundit

A good villain organization needs:

1. CONFORMITY: A good villain organization consists primarily of rank and file members who display no traits of individuality.  The ultimate expression of this is in the Imperial Stormtroopers: an army of identical clones wearing sterile white uniforms that completely obscure any sign of individuality.  Individualism is highly prized in modern culture, and conformity -- especially mindless conformity to an immoral cause -- is seen as one of the greatest evils.  Uniforms, particularly crisp and clean uniforms, are strongly associated with fascists and the suppression of individuality, and thus good villains wear clearly identifiable uniforms.   It helps if they are particularly stylish uniforms.
2. HIERARCHY:  A good villain organization consists of rank and file who suspend critical thought and mindlessly obey a clearly identifiable group of leaders.  This allows all responsibility for the actions of the rank and file to be directly blamed on the superiors of the group, while not excusing the behavior of the rank and file.  Loose affiliations, or corrupted hierarchies where those at the top simply have little control over those at the bottom, are more morally gray and thus less fun to battle.
3. TOTALITARIANISM: A good villain organization seeks to use violent force to compel agreement with a set of irrational beliefs.  It seeks to prevent one from thinking for oneself, and presents a clear danger to one's sense of self-determination.
4. ABSOLUTISM: A good villain organization cannot be negotiated and compromised with.  It sees its particular truth as the only possible truth.
5. HYPOCRISY and DEGENERACY: A good villainous organization pretends it is good, and when describing itself uses only the most shining terms.  A good villainous organization presents itself as representing the side of morality.  Hypocrisy is a universally reviled trait. A good villainous organization also engages in clearly degenerate behavior, particularly its leadership -- this emphasizes its hypocrisy.  It worships evil forces (The Empire), its leaders engage in hedonistic orgies (Nazis), it uses humanoid mercenaries to terrorize common folk (Zhentarim).
6. CLEARLY EVIDENCED EVIL: People clearly suffer under the control of a good villain organization.  Peasants are repressed, lovers are split apart, puppies are kicked.  the evil organization shows a flagrant disregard for the sanctity of life -- it slaughters harmless Jawas for information, kills your kindly aunt and uncle, and holds beautiful princesses hostage.

I think that covers the major bases.

Quote from: RPGPundit;220493You know, one of the things that was intensely appealing to me about FR, when it first came out as a setting, was the different organizations that existed in that setting: the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, the Harpers, etc.

What are the formula for making a good fantasy organization, vs. a bad one, as far as usability in an RPG campaign are concerned? Is there a formula? or set rules?

I would say, for starters, that any group that your PCs can't either join or fight is probably not going to be much use.

Beyond that?

As a general guideline, when I'm stuck designing an organization I apply principles found in individual characters (PC and NPCs). So just like characters they need backstory, agendas, resources, fields  of expertise, areas of interest, locations and so on. Just like characters they can grow, die, change, relocate.

Just like NPCs you can join them, hire them, get hired by them, fight them, bribe them, rob them or just plain interact with them.

Just like characters they can be extremely black and white entities or have shades of gray.

Where it does get even more interesting is how they function. Are they frighteningly monolithic, working like ants towards a common goal or are there different factions at odds? Will it fold as soon as you severe the head? If not, will a leadership change lead to noticable organizational changes?

What other organizations interact with this organization? Enemies? Friends?

When stuck for ideas, one can just follow an RPG lifepath such as those found in Interlock or any such product.

Anyway, it works for me. I just think of them as characters and go from there.

Conformity? Hierarchy? Totalitarianism? Absolutism? Hypocracy/Degeneracy? Clearly evidenced evil?

NO

Conformity: Any oraganization that has a chance of being a real threat will be pragmatic and adaptive. They will have multiple avenues of attack. An army of automatons is no threat to a D&D type fantasy adventuring party.

Hierarchy: The organization that is so top heavy would be vulnerable to simple cut the head off approach that clever players will always foresee. A bumbling mindless enemy does not require heroism to defeat. Such a foe is a parody of villainy.

Totalitarian-Absolutism: The oraganization should not seem irrational and if it can't be negotiated with it will be marginalized. Any villainous organization should appeal to something in the human heart, The Will To Power, Revenge, Even Peace or fairness. Otherwise they would be Cthulhoid entities or a zombie horde and such things may have cults that serve them, but humanoid organizations must seem sane on the surface to draw in the vulnerable.

Hypocracy/Degeneracy: These are human failings and should appear in good organizations as well. However blind blazing sincerity can be truly terrifying. The hypocrites are the ones that can be dealt with Messianic fervor can't be bribed away corrupt agents are a valuable asset to the enemy of an implacable fanatical organization.

Clearly Evidenced Evil: The Nazis fed the poor beer and sausages, Pablo Escobar bought food for the people of Medellin, Usama built roads and Mosques, Slavery Christianized Africans and Islamicized Slavs, Stalin raised peasants to heights of power and grew the industrial economy. People defending all of the above organizations pointed to these things to prove the benevolence of their causes. Evil (on the human scale) never looks and acts evil all the time.

....

No, you know what, this really fucking pissed me off.  You're such a fucking choad, I'm going to have to go through this and illustrate the depths of your fucking stupidity so that everyone can understand how completely fucktarded you are.  Seriously you waterheaded piece of shit, I'm thinking your dad inseminated your mom with a baster full of bleach.  that's how fucking stupid I think you are.

Quote from: Phizel;220543Conformity? Hierarchy? Totalitarianism? Absolutism? Hypocracy/Degeneracy? Clearly evidenced evil?

NO

First of all, a word on presenting arguments.  Starting by shouting "NO" is a good way to piss people off.  I want to point out to you that the things I described are true of all of the most memorable villain organizations in popular culture, from Pulp Nazis (to be distinguished from real Nazis) to Stormtroopers to COBRA.  Even the very examples Pundit cited (Zhentarim, Red Wizards of Thay) hold true to these points.

Simply shouting NO like a big man only tells me your too fucking dense to see the clear examples ALL AROUND YOU NUMBSKULL.

QuoteConformity: Any oraganization that has a chance of being a real threat will be pragmatic and adaptive. They will have multiple avenues of attack. An army of automatons is no threat to a D&D type fantasy adventuring party.

Someone missed the part where I said "THE RANK AND FILE."  Yeah, COBRA has Zartan and Dr. Mindbender, but mostly they have a bunch of idiots in blue jumpsuits with black masks.  Likewise, when the Stormtroopers can't stop you, Darth Vader hires Boba fucking Fett to go get your ass.  That's how villainous organizations work.

But the truly classic villain organizations have tons of faceless mooks who mindless conform and do as they are told.  

QuoteHierarchy: The organization that is so top heavy would be vulnerable to simple cut the head off approach that clever players will always foresee. A bumbling mindless enemy does not require heroism to defeat. Such a foe is a parody of villainy.

The Emperor. Manshoon.  Ming the Merciless.  Hitler's High Command.  Cobra Commander.  Dr. Evil.  The Monarch.  

A clear leader that can be killed and cause the organization to collapse is essential to a good villain organization.  Players need someone to focus on, someone to blame, and someone ultimately to kill.  A loose affiliation of bad guys with no clear head that can't be destroyed is not fun.  It's frustrating because you can't actually win against it.

QuoteTotalitarian-Absolutism: The oraganization should not seem irrational and if it can't be negotiated with it will be marginalized. Any villainous organization should appeal to something in the human heart, The Will To Power, Revenge, Even Peace or fairness. Otherwise they would be Cthulhoid entities or a zombie horde and such things may have cults that serve them, but humanoid organizations must seem sane on the surface to draw in the vulnerable.

No, otherwise they'd be THE BAD GUYS.  You know, BLACK HATS.  Fuck man, you're talking about a villainous organization that isn't clearly evil.  None of the classic famous villain groups are of questionably evil intent.  You know why?  Because questionably evil bad guys leave you feeling uncertain whether you should celebrate their defeat.  It causes victory to leave a sour taste.

QuoteHypocracy/Degeneracy: These are human failings and should appear in good organizations as well. However blind blazing sincerity can be truly terrifying. The hypocrites are the ones that can be dealt with Messianic fervor can't be bribed away corrupt agents are a valuable asset to the enemy of an implacable fanatical organization.

Sure, if you want to rob players of the thrill of victory and leave them questioning their own heroism.

Again, you;re an idiot and have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.  You know so fucking little about heroic fantasy that it's fucking LAUGHABLE.

QuoteClearly Evidenced Evil: The Nazis fed the poor beer and sausages, Pablo Escobar bought food for the people of Medellin, Usama built roads and Mosques, Slavery Christianized Africans and Islamicized Slavs, Stalin raised peasants to heights of power and grew the industrial economy. People defending all of the above organizations pointed to these things to prove the benevolence of their causes. Evil (on the human scale) never looks and acts evil all the time.

NO SHIT SHERLOCK.  Has FUCKALL to do with what I was talking about.  

A good villain group does things that everyone at the table can look at and say "Oh yeah, that's fucking evil."  My group is mostly composed of left-leaning liberal guys.  But one of us is a card carrying Republican.  A good villain group does things that leave evidence that all of my players can agree is clearly and unarguably wrong.  Slavery, mass murder, genocide, terrorism, tyranny.  Something everyone can point to and say "Yeah, THOSE GUYS are the BAD GUYS."

But really fucknuts, if you want to say I'm completely wrong, then cite some examples of famous and much loved (or loved-to-be-hated) villain organizations that don't feature these traits.

I'll give you the Legion of Doom, who aren't conformist.  But they're everything else.

QuoteNO SHIT SHERLOCK. Has FUCKALL to do with what I was talking about.

NO

I am just not as limited as you.

All the organizations I mentioned were serious bad guys in real life. Not everyone wants to imitate George Lucas. If villains were like that they wouldn't be worth fighting against with anything, but the Care Bears.

Also the first NO in my original post was an accident I didn't even notice until I just looked at your hissy fit junior.

Cartoon villainy is lazy. Read a book and quit watching star wars.

Apparently the viilains in real life aren't evil enough for you just imitate the lowest forms of pop culture and shut your brain off.

Your point was good villainous organizations "need" these qualities I disagree. They can have these and still be interesting, but if they have ALL of these they're cliched and silly.

If you took offense at the "NO" then I apologize, but you are at some point going to have to grow up and learn to think before posting.

Quote from: Phizel;220589All the organizations I mentioned were serious bad guys in real life.

Yeah, real life.  Which you'll notice is not a role playing game.  Totally different mileu, motherfucker.

QuoteNot everyone wants to imitate George Lucas. If villains were like that they wouldn't be worth fighting against with anything, but the Care Bears.

Yeah, okay dude, there's people out there making shitloads of money on the proposition that you're completely full of shit.  Where's your millions?  Oh, that's right, you're full of shit and have no idea what you're talking about.

QuoteCartoon villainy is lazy. Read a book and quit watching star wars.

God, you're what Pundit is talking about when he calls people swine, aren't you? Well guess what Niles, most players don't want their DM to drag them into a moral quagmire where its unclear who is the bad guy and who is the good guy.  Most players don't want to play Three Kings, they want Lord of the Rings.

See, most players actually like Star Wars.  They want something like Star Wars.  They want cliche.  Players, by and large, are looking for a chance to engage with the tropes of the heroic fantasy genre.  Giving them real world villains is cheating them.

You can piss all over popular tropes you want, but there is a reason they are popular, and there is a reason they work.

QuoteAlso the first NO in my original post was an accident I didn't even notice until I just looked at your hissy fit junior.
...
If you took offense at the "NO" then I apologize, but you are at some point going to have to grow up and learn to think before posting.

Maybe you should pay more attention to what you fucking post, pigfucker.

Wow...

I'd walk away from a game that had a Jackalope-approved evil organization. I'd feel like the GM put in no effort if the bad guys were that poorly and tritely conceived.

Quote from: JimLotFP;220601Wow...

I'd walk away from a game that had a Jackalope-approved evil organization. I'd feel like the GM put in no effort if the bad guys were that poorly and tritely conceived.

Because you could do so much better, threadcrapper.

Quote from: Jackalope;220602Because you could do so much better, threadcrapper.

Goddamn right.

Quote from: Jackalope;220596God, you're what Pundit is talking about when he calls people swine, aren't you? Well guess what Niles, most players don't want their DM to drag them into a moral quagmire where its unclear who is the bad guy and who is the good guy.  Most players don't want to play Three Kings, they want Lord of the Rings.

See, most players actually like Star Wars.  They want something like Star Wars.  They want cliche.  Players, by and large, are looking for a chance to engage with the tropes of the heroic fantasy genre.  Giving them real world villains is cheating them.

LOTR isn't best example, bacause Mordor isn't evil organization in traditional sence... it's more like empire of cloned automaton troopers ruled by Cthuhlu-like god.

Saruman's organization is better example, bacaese it's said, that he convnced some local tribes for his cause and he tryed to look at least somewhat good if I remember it corectly...

But I still agree with you, that player character in traditional heroic game should know who is evil, but that should not meant that every single peasant they met will think the same...

For interesting, inspiring organizations, I just use the same principles as for interesting, inspiring (N)PCs, which they basically are.

You neither should copy a cliché 1:1, nor should you create a unique snowflake that breaks all expectations: You have to find a fertile middleground between cliché and uniqueness.
Take note that you can still make use of the accessability of clichés by breaking and twisting them, or by breaking and twisting parts of it while keeping the overall cliché, but I cionsider this as an essential tool for good GMs and players, so I don't elaborate on this further.

Next, your organization needs to have an active goal. It can be morally wrong, illogical, deluded, it can be active only because interests from other entities intervene, but all in all your organization has to have a reason to get out of the bed each morning and do something.
Else, it justs exists and does nothing beside from "just be", and getting into motion is important for any interesting things to happen.

Finally, you need to tap into something that excites your players personally, or at least taps into something that makes you as GM excited and gives you the energy to be frantically about the organization and to potentially infect your players with the same ethusiasm.
Pundits Church of the Unconquered Sun in FTA!GN seems to be a good example of this, as Roman history, alt-history and the (wrong ways and wrong-doings of the) Catholic church seem to be great personal interests of him, and being personally interested into the stuff you present is vital to get enthusiasm going on in the group.
This shows also that this principle mostly applies to organizations homebrewed for your personal table, for people you personally know. In a group where no one has interest in this stuff, the CotUS would probably fall flat on its arse.
In published settings, your best bet is to offer choice and variety to increase the chances that there's something in your setting that thrills others, and to do some guesswork by thinking about what your potential custoimer group looks like and what should interest it.

Quote from: JimLotFP;220603Goddamn right.

Put your money where your mouth is, big shot.

Otherwise you just wrote a check you can't cash.

Jackalope I think you're missing the point most heroic fiction agrees with me not you. Even Ed Greenwood wanted the Zhentarim to be the competent powerful fearsome organization that it was in his campaign. All attempts to make the Zhents truly formidable were shot down by upper management.

Heroic fiction did not begin with the Saturday morning serials that influenced George Lucas into writing Indy and Star Wars. Evil organizations and evil powers in these other sources including Saruman's in LOTR were far more complicated than the Post Modernist would imply. I am not a Post Modernist and I don't think GI JOE is a useful source for designing a formidable enemy. Why base your ideas on inferior workmanship it requires no effort to create hollow minions with no motivations, no capabilities, no intellegence. I am not writing fiction I'm running a game if the organization is not capable of being a real threat to my players they will not treat it with respect.

If Cobra is your idea of an evil organization then that is your player's problem not mine. I can't help that you don't understand why COBRA is not a useful model for a game about overcoming challenges.

Unlike you I don't think Good and Evil are wholly the provence of juvenile fiction and the adult mind balks at such inanities. I admit I've read far more history than comic books  and my idea of heroism is informed much more by Howard Hawks or John Ford than by TV shows I watched when I was 10.

My critcisms of your juvenile ideas of evil was purely pointing out that player in an RPG are not the pawns of a pulp fiction writer, but thinking individuals in an immersive enviroment. The Enemy should be too.

Also who says the PLAYERS have to be the good guys?