D&D, the first and still most influential fantasy RPG, was based largely on fantasy literature popular at the time:

* combat from Robert E. Howard's Conan (1930s)
* magic from Jack Vance's Dying Earth (1950)
* thieves and thieves' guilds from Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (1939-1988)
* races (and monsters) from JRR Tolkien's Middle Earth (1930s-1950s)
* Paladins, Trolls and Alignment from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions (1961)
* Law and Chaos from Michael Moorcock's Elric (1960s)

If D&D were to be created in 2006 instead of 1974, what fantasy literature would be the best sources for it to draw upon for various aspects of the game?  

To me, Tolkien still seems a likely choice.  Some of the others, like Vance and Anderson, aren't nearly as popular now.  New works, like J.K.Rowling's Harry Potter series seem likely inspirations if the game were "invented" today.

You're assuming the influences were used because of popularity. I think that assumption is very, very flawed.

Robert Jordan?

*shiver*

It's an interesting thought experiment.  I wonder, though, if D&D weren't invented: would fantasy literature look anything like it does?

Katherine Kerr, Raymond Feist, and I think George RR Martin were all gamers at one point, and are quite open about D&D's influence on their work.

Dragonlance's commercial success has a lot to do with the kinds of fantasy works we see on mass market shelves.

Tolkien and Harry Potter are phenomena whose popularity has little to do with D&D, so I think it'd be safe to assume those as primary influences in such a case.

Quote from: SosthenesYou're assuming the influences were used because of popularity. I think that assumption is very, very flawed.

I'd hazard a guess that it was at the least because it was popular with the creator.

Col., do you recall Gary answering this question on ENWorld over the years? Why the mix of influences that were chosen?  Was it for functionally mechanical reasons? Flavour of what he was interested in? Or perhaps a little bit of what he thought his friends would be interested in and would thus be willing to play/pay?

QuoteYou're assuming the influences were used because of popularity. I think that assumption is very, very flawed.

Fair enough.  Let's not worry about that too much though.

How about -- in 2006, if YOU were inventing D&D for the first time, what fantasy literature would you draw upon as inspiration?

Quote from: KenHRRobert Jordan?

*shiver*

It's an interesting thought experiment.  I wonder, though, if D&D weren't invented: would fantasy literature look anything like it does?

Katherine Kerr, Raymond Feist, and I think George RR Martin were all gamers at one point, and are quite open about D&D's influence on their work.

Dragonlance's commercial success has a lot to do with the kinds of fantasy works we see on mass market shelves.

It has been speculated that Joss Whedon's Firefly partially drew on gaming with Traveller. Wash's "travellers" line near the beginning of the pilot has been quoted as part of the reason, although the overall premise seems to be ripped right out of a non-canon setting Traveller game.

QuoteTolkien and Harry Potter are phenomena whose popularity has little to do with D&D, so I think it'd be safe to assume those as primary influences in such a case.

Well at least Harry Potter. But Tolkien? Hrmm, the huge adult geek draw might have a lot to do with computer RPGs, which are in a lot of ways a growth from P&P Although they are likely to have been created even without P&P, the faux medieval slice of it might not have been as prevalent.

Quote from: StuartHow about -- in 2006, if YOU were inventing D&D for the first time, what fantasy literature would you draw upon as inspiration?

Okay, let's assume that I'm in the same position as Gary was. I'm definitely _not_ inventing the big RPG revolution thingamajig. I'm just taking a single step away from unit-based wargaming. No delusions of grandeur.
And let's also assume that all the novels we know (well, except the obvious TSR/WotC novels) would look the same without D&D...

Conan would still reign supreme. The movies only made him more popular, so playing a character like him would be pretty mandatory for at least one group member...
LotR would count even more, once again because of the movies and the historic significance. I want my players to understand the concepts, so basing it on something almost everyone read is still very important.

Strangely enough, then I would pretty much deviate from books and go with video games. My "rogue" character wouldn't come from Cugel, but from the sneaky-style games (Thief, Splinter Cell). Obviously that's one niche of gameplay that has to be fulfilled.

The rest would be a rather eclectic mix, probably nothing more than small bits of inspiration. Black Company, Gemell (!!), Thomas Covenant the Incessant Whiner, a cool Executioner class a la New Sun, lots of magic from Faust (hey, I'm German...)...

I'd wager a guess that today's author would have even more different sources than Gygax had (no offense, Gary).

Although I'm not quite sure how I'd integrate internet porn in the game...

Would you set it in a faux medieval setting though?  I'm wondering if I would.  For example let's make the year 1978 and still base it on wargaming but coming from Squad Leader?  Or having the wargame it come from something like a Napoleonic era?

Or once the worst of the Vietnam vibe blows over set it in near-contemporary, maybe even in SE Asia? Or a coldwar "what if".....that eventually got twisted into Cold Space.

Quote from: blakkieOr once the worst of the Vietnam vibe blows over set it in near-contemporary, maybe even in SE Asia? Or a coldwar "what if".....that eventually got twisted into Cold Space.

-clash

Quote from: blakkieWould you set it in a faux medieval setting though?  I'm wondering if I would.  For example let's make the year 1978 and still base it on wargaming but coming from Squad Leader?  Or having the wargame it come from something like a Napoleonic era?

Well, if you say Hero, I'll say loincloth and/or armor.

But yes, RPGs that come out a more tactical situation would be possible, probably done by rabid Sharpe fans or Counterstrike players.

Now, picture this for a minute: What if Jim Theis had invented RPGs.

Quote from: blakkieWell at least Harry Potter. But Tolkien? Hrmm, the huge adult geek draw might have a lot to do with computer RPGs, which are in a lot of ways a growth from P&P Although they are likely to have been created even without P&P, the faux medieval slice of it might not have been as prevalent.

Tolkien's books took over a decade to become best-sellers.  A lot of that had to do with the dirty hippy movement in the '60s, at least in the US.  And fantasy fiction in the "epic" tradition flowed from that, starting with Terry Brooks and such (interestingly enough, to fill a demand, many publishers re-issued weird old fantasy novels like The Worm Ourobouros during the initial swell of LotR's popularity).

I think JRRT would be just as popular without D&D, because his popularity had nothing to do with gaming.

EDIT: re-reading your quote, I think I misunderstood what you were saying.  So ignore this post if I did.  But if you meant what I now think you meant, then I think I agree!

Quote from: SosthenesWell, if you say Hero, I'll say loincloth and/or armor.

If you say hero I'm liable to think superhero. What if RPGs didn't first spring up from wargames but came from people that wanted to create and playout their own comic book superheros. I suspect it would look much different from D&D. Oddly I suspect they might have a lot more mechanics geared towards "soap opera" aspect, because that's a big thing in comic books, with more handwaving of combat....just to tie this all in with that other currently hot thread here.

Of course it wouldn't have attracted the exact same set of grognads originally.  But imagine the impact it could have had on comic books/graphic novels.

Quote from: KenHRTolkien's books took over a decade to become best-sellers.  A lot of that had to do with the dirty hippy movement in the '60s, at least in the US.  And fantasy fiction in the "epic" tradition flowed from that, starting with Terry Brooks and such (interestingly enough, to fill a demand, many publishers re-issued weird old fantasy novels like The Worm Ourobouros during the initial swell of LotR's popularity).

I think JRRT would be just as popular without D&D, because his popularity had nothing to do with gaming.

EDIT: re-reading your quote, I think I misunderstood what you were saying.  So ignore this post if I did.  But if you meant what I now think you meant, then I think I agree!

What I mean I'm not sure the movie would have pulled quite as much as it did. Personally? I tried to get through LotR because of D&D, and failed because the old man.....did....drone....on...and on....and on....so much. Also most of my reading of fantasy has flowed from my playing D&D. So I'd be reading other things instead. Well I do read other things, faux medieval fantasy is already a pretty small slice of what I read.

Of course LotR is a damn good movie in it's own right. So I likely would have seen it anyway, if it had actually been made (that was one hell of a budget to gamble with).

Quote from: SosthenesAlthough I'm not quite sure how I'd integrate internet porn in the game...

This would give "Holmes Edition" an entirely different meaning to old-school players...

Quote from: StuartIf D&D were to be created in 2006 instead of 1974, what fantasy literature would be the best sources for it to draw upon for various aspects of the game?

Okay, not literature, but there are Warcraft novels... and manga... too.