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TVTropes defines Crystal Dragon Jesus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus) as

QuoteAny fictional religion, such as those found in a Medieval European Fantasy, which possesses attributes stereotypically associated with Christianity (especially Roman Catholicism) — such as priestly vestments, nuns and their habits, confessionals, the designs of houses of worship, and crosses — but which centers on a deity other than the Christian God, like an animistic spirit or pagan-flavored god. Often there will be a Yahweh analog and/or a Satan analog but not a Jesus one.

How does that make you feel, when a fantasy setting, or more to the point a game setting, uses a superficially-Christian religious model?

I have to admit, to me it can feel kind of intellectually lazy if not done extremely carefully. Which causes me a lot of unnecessary anguish when it comes to D&D, because the standard Cleric is pretty much built around it. So much so, that sometimes I resolve to just ditch clerics from my games altogether. But I never seem to follow through. On the other hand I can understand the appeal, particularly if one is seeking a pseudo-medieval feel.

Am I just nuts, or is that a reasonable reaction?

I'm fine with explicit analogues of Christianity: "This is World X's version of medieval Christianity". So, a Monotheist religion that has great political and moral power. I don't like muddled "Christian church with pagan gods at the altar" type affairs, which most D&D settings have. Greyhawk is one of the worst offenders, religion there seems to make no sense at all AFAICT. Forgotten Realms is more pagan and less Christian, but has still had silly ideas of compulsory patron deities and treating the different gods as different religions. Not long ago I had a player reluctant to have her Ranger PC pray to Kelemvor for a dead man's safe journey to the afterlife (Kelemvor being the shepherd of the dead) - she was worried her patron goddess Mielikki would be offended!

Depends on how far it cleaves to the real world stuff. If its just swap some names and otherwise its the same thing. Then that tend to be rather boring and cliche as its been done to death across various media.

If it is just one or two points of simmilarity then that tends to get the wave for me.

I think "intellectually lazy" is perfectly fine for roleplaying games. Look at the context for most roleplaying games, it's the stuff of elves, wizards, space aliens and vampires. Even the games we tend to consider more character driven and psychological tend to be pretty goofy and lurid by the standards of world literature.

As a general principle I would avoid anything that might risk offending the beliefs or sensibilities of your players just to make the above mentioned elves, wizards, space aliens and vampires a little different, unless of you know your players well and where to draw the line with them.

Oh I love it. The Church has this fantastic hierarchy, these elaborate rituals and ornamentation, hidden secrets, voting councils at the higher level and when you delve back into the depths of the middle ages some wild grotesqueries amongst the better known traditions.

I don't support the Church in reality, I'm not even a Christian, but the sheer quantity of plot hooks and adventure possibilities it brings to the table overlaid on even vanilla D&D is exciting, as long as it's not a superficial treatment of this ancient organisation.

Quote from: Soylent Green;714229I think "intellectually lazy" is perfectly fine for roleplaying games. Look at the context for most roleplaying games, it's the stuff of elves, wizards, space aliens and vampires. Even the games we tend to consider more character driven and psychological tend to be pretty goofy and lurid by the standards of world literature.

For roleplaying games, too much worldbuilding makes the setting too alien. (For most people. Obviously, there are exceptions.) Playing such a game becomes an exercise in "let me figure out how this character who shares no common cultural concepts with me would think" rather than "let's have fun exploring this hidden tomb".

That's why RPG's tend to (in most cases) hew pretty close to a set of common tropes (varying by genre), changing only a few of them for a specific setting: "Fantasy, but with Lovecraft Horror." It makes the setting more accessible, which means people don't have to focus on the strangeness, but can focus on the fun.

"Crystal Dragon Jesus" is just a way of making a religion that's accessible to most people.

I don't mind this stuff.

The Christian church, if you look at the myriad of denominations and sects, drew much (perhaps even most, and if you read some scholars, all) of it's ritualism and belief structure from the religions that came before.

The concept of a Messiah figure was not new in Jesus' time - nor even a virgin birth, a death and resurrection, sacrificial atonement for sins.  

You only have to look at the Egyptian cult(s) of Isis to find analogies to the confessional.

Nearly everything in the Christian church can be found in older, deeper roots of other religions.

So, slapping another deity on top of an existing hierarchy doesn't strike me as any more "intellectual laziness" as, oh, say, not inventing a completely different language.

Most of medieval roleplaying is taking a given set of historical references and tossing a few new things into the mix to see what kind of ripples result.

There's a lot to be said for giving the GMs and players interesting twists while providing them with something familiar to grasp.

If it were "intellectual laziness" then it would be a closer replica of Christianity "with the serial numbers filed off" - which has been done before, over and over again.

As a follower of the teachings of Christ and a student of history, I rather enjoy other people's takes on the "what if Christianity was a little different?".

As I said elsewhere, its fine by me. High Valor has the Martyr and the High Lord, and they took more work making work for my game and building the myths in my head (and on paper, for some reason the myths didn't all make it into the game.) Than the fictional ones for my D&D style setting. Or the ones for my dark-fantasy setting. Mostly because I wanted them to feel right, and with purely entirely drawn from fiction I don't have anything to "fit" together.

Quote from: LibraryLass;714210TVTropes defines Crystal Dragon Jesus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus)

How does that make you feel, when a fantasy setting, or more to the point a game setting, uses a superficially-Christian religious model?

Am I just nuts, or is that a reasonable reaction?

Getting rid of, or adding to, the traditional Christian Clerics that were a part of the original D&D was very important in the early days was the goal of many GMs, and not because they were not christians.. It was the opinion of many in the gaming community that attaching just one religion to the game was sending the wrong message about the game to all RPG gamers, and that a more balanced approach should be used.

While no attempt was made to change AD&D, the Rules Cyclopedia did include both mystics and druids. Many folks thought TSR muffed the interpretation for Mystics because they didn't have spells, just special abilities.

Generally what we always did if we were not happy was to create our own character classes... and that included new types of clerics (with new spells).

The Amazon Priestess was one of my personal favorites homebrew character classes from the early 80's. I reworked the original after 3e came out, and still have the writeup for it;

Amazon Priestess PDF download (http://gamedevonline.net/wordpress/?p=244) (Yeah!, free)

The Amazon Priestess
Among the clans and tribes of the amazon women, there exist an exceptional few that turn from the art of war. Instead these women serve as leaders, healers, spell casters, negotiators, counselors, and are considered the wise women of amazon society. These women are known as the Amazon Priestess. The Amazon Priestess class is closely related to Sorcerers as class with a bit of a twist. Because of their cultural background amazons learn spells of both wizardry, and religion, and have a few spells that are unique to them as a class because of their  nature.

Adventure;
Most of the Amazon Priestess’ remain with the clans and tribes they are raised in for life. On rare occasion, an amazon priestess may venture forth into the outside world on a quest for some information, magic, or item, that the community may need to survive and prosper. On occasion, for some heinous crime, an amazon priestess may be exiled from the clan or tribe. Even rarer, but not altogether unheard of, an amazon priestess may leave the clan for a time on a “world journey” or sabbatical. Sometimes, the priestess never returns.

Characteristics;
From a young age a priestess is trained in using spears and bows to hunt with, just like any other member of the clan or tribe. They are proficient gatherers as well, and many have extraordinary abilities to find suitable food type plants and to determine if such plants are edible or poisonous. The time of puberty is where the path of the priestess diverge from the warriors, and others in the clan. Often it is a natural skill, or spontaneous ability, with spell craft, or healing, that sets the priestess apart from the rest of the tribe. At other times, it is the diplomatic skills, or the eloquence, that sets a would-be priestess apart from her peers in the eyes of the village elders. Some of the priestess class eschew violence and instead train in defensive combat using a staff, however, this is rare. If they demonstrate any talents at all priestess’ are formally trained in the healing arts, and in spell craft from puberty until they reach adulthood when they take up positions of clan or tribe leadership. As they grow older, they learn diplomacy, negotiation, and statecraft skills as well.

Quote from: LibraryLass;714210Which causes me a lot of unnecessary anguish when it comes to D&D, because the standard Cleric is pretty much built around it.

You're over-thinking D&D.

Quote from: Soylent Green;714229I think "intellectually lazy" is perfectly fine for roleplaying games.

For cases of 'intellectually lazy makes the game-world readily accessible to the players,' most definitely

How would a religion devoted to a Palestinian Jewish rabbi regarded as an incarnation of the God of Abraham and Moses originate in a world that has never had Palestine or Israelites, never had the Roman Empire and its collapse, and so on and on?

The Deryni novels pull off the injection of the Church passably well, IIRC, by being set in a world that is more or less a parallel Earth. Clifford Simak's novels of an alternate history in which monsters kept a basically medieval civilization going into the 1970s are even closer to home.

GURPS Fantasy presented the world of Yrth, to which humans had been brought from Earth by the native Dark Elves' conjuration. Naturally, they brought their Christianity, Islam and Judaism with them. (Some Japanese also turned up, but not very culturally literate ones, and built a society resembling a Monty Python take on Japanese tradition.)

Quote from: Phillip;714286GURPS Fantasy presented the world of Yrth, to which humans had been brought from Earth by the native Dark Elves' conjuration. Naturally, they brought their Christianity, Islam and Judaism with them. (Some Japanese also turned up, but not very culturally literate ones, and built a society resembling a Monty Python take on Japanese tradition.)

I've always wanted to run a game in Yrth. I think it's a pretty fantastic set up.

Quote from: Phillip;714286How would a religion devoted to a Palestinian Jewish rabbi regarded as an incarnation of the God of Abraham and Moses originate in a world that has never had Palestine or Israelites, never had the Roman Empire and its collapse, and so on and on?

It's probably more interesting to focus on the structure and hierarchy of the church rather than the specifics of the theology, which Theravada Buddhism isn't all that far away from, despite being less centralised. It's an ornate edifice of marvellous nutty tradition upon which many great movies and stories have been based. Like The DaVinci code, The Name of the Rose, The Exorcist, The Sin Eater, etc.

To be honest, most religions have similar structures. Different levels of knowledge/belief/rank, holy days, holy places, special rituals and so on.

Christianity in its many forms has the same sort of structure. So do many more religions.

Religions in RPGs are often written up in similar ways. Sure, the spells they get are different and the rituals, holy days, temples and priests are different, but they all boil down to the same basic structures.

I'm a RQ/Glorantha fan, so I like the way they deal with religions. No Crystal Dragon Jesus there, but the cults are very similar on form. Even Alternate Earth versions of Christianity are similar to other religions.

Quote from: The Traveller;714300It's probably more interesting to focus on the structure and hierarchy of the church

For which one can come up with rationales employing analogous causes, hence "Crystal Dragon" (or whatever) rather than Latin, Greek and Hebrew in a world of High Goblinish and Auld Elven.

Quoterather than the specifics of the theology, which Theravada Buddhism isn't all that far away from

Perhaps you're thinking of Mahayana, more particularly Pure Land?

QuoteIt's an ornate edifice of marvellous nutty tradition upon which many great movies and stories have been based. Like The DaVinci code, The Name of the Rose, The Exorcist, The Sin Eater, etc.

Yes, indeed. It's also a tradition with which many people are somewhat acquainted, recognition expediting many matters. The religions of Tekumel, Glorantha or the World of Greyhawk can be very interesting, but they can also call for a pause for exposition so the players know what they're about.

D&D probably originated Crystal Dragon Jesus (love the term, BTW) by positing a Cleric class strongly grounded in Christian tradition and thrusting it upon typically polytheistic sword-and-sorcery settings.

Quote from: Soylent Green;714229I think "intellectually lazy" is perfectly fine for roleplaying games. Look at the context for most roleplaying games, it's the stuff of elves, wizards, space aliens and vampires. Even the games we tend to consider more character driven and psychological tend to be pretty goofy and lurid by the standards of world literature.

I agree with the sentiment, but I'm perfectly fine with honest attempts at trying something different. We do Different Elves and Different Vampires, so why not Different Clerics? I'm particularly fond of Tékumel's pantheon, and of Runequest cults.

Quote from: Ben Rogers;714244The Christian church, if you look at the myriad of denominations and sects, drew much (perhaps even most, and if you read some scholars, all) of it's ritualism and belief structure from the religions that came before.

That is a really, really cool take on things. :hatsoff:

Quote from: Piestrio;714288I've always wanted to run a game in Yrth. I think it's a pretty fantastic set up.

I used to think Yrth was whack, but since I've read AS&SH (whose setting operates under a similar idea, with human groups from all over history ending up in Hyperborea) I've been contemplating a similar exercise on world-building.

Quote from: Phillip;714310Perhaps you're thinking of Mahayana, more particularly Pure Land?

I speak of my own experiences with the Theravada temple hierarchy in Southeast Asia, and which have left me forever wary of dealing with Theravada politics. It's quite impressive how diverse religious groups will organise themselves in similar manners.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;714275You're over-thinking D&D.

No shit. But don't we all?

Well, once again, for me, it really is a question of context. If you create a fantasy world that functions on a logic completely divorced from its real world medieval equivalent, then the sky's the limit and you can go into all sorts of different directions with your deities and pantheons.

If however you set out to create a medieval fantasy world, then the question of how the setting shaped in a familiar way from a medieval standpoint without the influence of something comparable to the Papacy and Church of our real Western world will come up, sooner or later.

I'm cool with any type of fantasy world, and I don't mind faux-medieval stuff - I love it, in fact. That doesn't make me dislike Glorantha (which has its own medieval fantasy of the Christian faith with Malkionism, btw), or Empire of the Petal Throne. It's just different.

Vive la différence. There's room for everything, IMO.

As for laziness. You certainly can do faux-medievalism with more or less laziness, AND you certainly can build something that claims to be different while being more or less lazy in the process.

Quote from: The Traveller;714321I speak of my own experiences with the Theravada temple hierarchy in Southeast Asia, and which have left me forever wary of dealing with Theravada politics. It's quite impressive how diverse religious groups will organise themselves in similar manners.

Ah, I think I misread; I thought you were suggesting a theological parallel, which seems more obscure to me than an institutional one.

Quote from: LibraryLass;714210TVTropes defines Crystal Dragon Jesus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus) as



How does that make you feel, when a fantasy setting, or more to the point a game setting, uses a superficially-Christian religious model?

I have to admit, to me it can feel kind of intellectually lazy if not done extremely carefully. Which causes me a lot of unnecessary anguish when it comes to D&D, because the standard Cleric is pretty much built around it. So much so, that sometimes I resolve to just ditch clerics from my games altogether. But I never seem to follow through. On the other hand I can understand the appeal, particularly if one is seeking a pseudo-medieval feel.

Am I just nuts, or is that a reasonable reaction?

It is a reasonable reaction, but then again Christianity is a common touchstone for Western religions that most people are familiar with.

If you like, there is a book called 101 Religions created by British Isles Traveller Support (BITS) (http://www.bitsuk.net/Products/101Books/101Books.html) listing a wealth of possible alternate religions for Traveller. A little work and I am sure it can be used for D&D.

Personally, for D&D, I've been using the Small Gods articles from FFG's Legends & Lairs books to create more local divine beings with smaller flocks of adherants and who can be defeated by mid to high level characters (which can then become Small Gods themselves). Makes for an interesting and very much alive theological component to the setting.

Quote from: jeff37923;714341Personally, for D&D, I've been using the Small Gods articles from FFG's Legends & Lairs books to create more local divine beings with smaller flocks of adherants and who can be defeated by mid to high level characters (which can then become Small Gods themselves). Makes for an interesting and very much alive theological component to the setting.

That is one criminally underrated book, and probably one of the best thing Mike Mearls wrote (the other being a supplement for Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved whose name escapes me).

Crystal Dragon Jesus rules! Maybe even saves...on 11+.

It annoys me enough that in my current campaign I've ditched made up deities altogether. My current party of PCs consists of a dwarf who worships the Norse powers, a human fighter who converted to the "Old Ways" after St. Procopius denied him a healing miracle and chastised him with a Hold Person spell in a heated moment in our first session, a human cleric (all clerics presented in my campaign thus far are Roman Catholics, pagan deities do not have clerics), an Eastern Orthodox magic-user, and one of the cleric's henchmen is a Muslim Turk he's trying to convert. Miracles from gods and saints occur almost every session. I'm having a blast with this, and my players are too. Adding more of the real world to fantasy settings improves things, to my mind.

The only made-up fantasy RPG religions I have any regard for anymore are the gods of Warhammer's Old World. The motifs they are based on are solidly appropriate for their setting and its subject matter.

Quote from: Mathias;714382It annoys me enough that in my current campaign I've ditched made up deities altogether. My current party of PCs consists of a dwarf who worships the Norse powers, a human fighter who converted to the "Old Ways" after St. Procopius denied him a healing miracle and chastised him with a Hold Person spell in a heated moment in our first session, a human cleric (all clerics presented in my campaign thus far are Roman Catholics, pagan deities do not have clerics), an Eastern Orthodox magic-user, and one of the cleric's henchmen is a Muslim Turk he's trying to convert. Miracles from gods and saints occur almost every session. I'm having a blast with this, and my players are too. Adding more of the real world to fantasy settings improves things, to my mind.

The only made-up fantasy RPG religions I have any regard for anymore are the gods of Warhammer's Old World. The motifs they are based on are solidly appropriate for their setting and its subject matter.

I'd like to hear more about this campaign.

Quote from: LibraryLass;714210Am I just nuts, or is that a reasonable reaction?

I think there's a problem with GMs that don't set their players expectations about religion; but if some default campaign is set up that way, I don't see a problem with it if it actually fits with the rest of society. But again, if the players are "natives", they should have an idea about how it all works.

Quote from: LibraryLass;714322But don't we all?

That's a fair point. Carry on.

"Crystal Dragon Jesus."  Huh.  I love that term -- enough that I've just edited my blog post that bitches about the syndrome (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/10/starting-from-scratch-pt-ii-wednesdays.html) to put it in.

Yeah, it bugs me.  Can we pretty please not have purported fantasy religions being just like the Roman Catholic church, circa 1870, only with the serial numbers filed off?

Quote from: LibraryLass;714395I'd like to hear more about this campaign.

What would you like to know in particular? I will talk a bit about how I'm handling religion since that is the focus of the thread.

My setting is similar to Europe in the early 14th century- England, France, Italy, & Spain for example all exist. The year is 1311 and the papal curia has been moved to Averoigne in France.

"Clerics" as in the class from the Player's Hand Book, are vanishingly rare. The motif I associate with them is "living saint." Individuals holy enough to wield such divine gifts are rarely part of the actual clergy, which is largely made up of magic-users. I haven't had much opportunity to portray the church or its officials in my campaign, but I want to be able to present it as an earthly, corruptible institution, which I think is compromised if one assumes that every ordained priest can cure light wounds, etc.

I have given thought to the idea that anyone who ascribes to a monotheistic (not necessarily Abrahamic) religion could be a cleric, a la Ars Magica.

I allow each of my players to attempt to call for divine intervention once per adventure. Divine intervention takes the form of requesting a specific spell be cast on one's behalf, i.e. "I want Thor to cast magic missile on this Norker" or "I pray for three hours and call upon St. Jude to cast Cure Disease, and promise to donate 3,000 GP to the church."

The rules for courting divine favor come from a British game from the 80s called Fantasy Wargaming: The Highest Level of All. It contains a large chart which shows all of the Christian powers from the Trinity on down through Mary, the Angels, and all the saints, giving for each of them an astrological sign, "combat level" (which I have re-purposed to effective cleric level), resistance to appeals, and areas of favor and disfavor. I use TSR's Deities & Demigods as reference for which spells can be cast by which pagan gods. The Norse, Greek, Celtic, and Finnish pantheons (as presented in D&DG) are available for petitioning.

The numerous minor saints have low cleric levels but also rather low resistance to appeals scores, making them much more "approachable" than the old gods. I total up factors in favor of or against the power granting the miracle and we roll on a chart which gives a range of results which included whether the appeal is successful or not and whether or not there is a penalty- you may get the miracle but have to perform a Quest/Geas for the deity, or be subject to some other unpleasant or humbling effect.

My players are currently helping the dwarf fulfill a quest from Freya to retrieve three jars of her golden tears from a dark elf as recompense for her resurrection of one said dwarf's men-at-arms some time ago. That same hireling was killed again shortly thereafter, but there is no backing out.

The tone of my campaign's treatment of religion I would classify as irreverent but not mocking.

Quote from: Ravenswing;714449
Yeah, it bugs me.  Can we pretty please not have purported fantasy religions being just like the Roman Catholic church, circa 1870, only with the serial numbers filed off?

One of the first campaigns I ever played in had a roman church which had never become the state religion of Rome. It was just another human religion alongside arianistic Christianity, a celtic christian church of grail keepers centered on Joseph of Arimathia , druidism, and various pagan cults. Since the campaign focuses on a fantasy dark ages Europe there are probably other religions out in the wider world that we never encountered.

I am currently using renamed & updated Greek deities.  Lots of minor ones for local flavor.

I've never run nor played in a game with a Christian like Over deity set up.

"It's just a dumb game."  -- Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Early GREYHAWK featured the First Church of Crom, Scientist, Mitra's Witnesses, and the Church of Latter Day Great Old Ones.

It bugs me. Please leave Christianity out of my fantasy (and science fiction) games.

I don't want to offend others. I don't want to see my real-life religion mangled, misinterpreted and mistreated. I don't like thinly-disguised preaching. And if we allow a fantasy version of Christianity in our games, shouldn't it be the fully-realized version of Christianity? In other words, where no one and nothing can stand against the power of Christ?

Not much of a game that way, is it?

Maybe it's just my neighbors, but I get way too much of that modern-day 'cult' vibe from the Christians with a capital 'C' that I interact with every day. I don't need to game with them too.

And no. I don't need to replicate medieval Europe that faithfully. (Pun intended.) As we said in the SCA, we play out medieval times as we like to imagine it. If you put in fae folk and spells, you can just as easily leave out Christianity. Or stick to a fantasy S&S world that's not so rooted on medieval Europe.

Rant mode off.

Quote from: Baron;714517And if we allow a fantasy version of Christianity in our games, shouldn't it be the fully-realized version of Christianity? In other words, where no one and nothing can stand against the power of Christ?

Not much of a game that way, is it?

If we allow a fantasy version of Zeus in our games,  shouldn't it be the fully-realized version of Olympic deities? In other  words, where no one and nothing can stand against the power of Zeus if he so chooses?

Not much of a game that way, is it?  ;)

Quote from: Baron;714517I don't want to offend others. I don't want to see my real-life religion mangled, misinterpreted and mistreated. I don't like thinly-disguised preaching. And if we allow a fantasy version of Christianity in our games, shouldn't it be the fully-realized version of Christianity? In other words, where no one and nothing can stand against the power of Christ?

.

I think being aware of what offends your players is helpful however what if they are not preaching but just drawing on it for inspiration because it is familiar to people or associated with the feel of the setting? It isn't necessarily a commentary on real world religions when you use aspects of them in your setting. I have a group with pretty mixed beliefs, but none of us gets upset if parallels from our belief systems show up in a game, because we know no one at the table is trying to make a point about religion. Mainly because it is a pretty terrible way to convince people of things. If my GM wants to persuade me to believe in something, or not believe in something, it would be a lot easier for him to argue with me directly than try to demonstrate the validity of his position over the course of a campaign.

Quote from: Old Geezer;714502"It's just a dumb game."  -- Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Early GREYHAWK featured the First Church of Crom, Scientist, Mitra's Witnesses, and the Church of Latter Day Great Old Ones.

No Orc Krishnas or Zen Goblins? I had guys in my play group that insisted on playing Priests of Katang, an Arduin class of priests so fierce, one had to make a ST. vs Death every time a priest of Katang slapped you.

GM: The Priest slaps you.... make a saving throw.

Player: Versus what?

GM: Make a saving throw vs. Death

Player: Why? It's just a priest slapping me?

GM: NO. It's a Priest of Katang! What is the sound of one hand clapping?

It's one of those things that I try to avoid while worldbuilding or picking up a setting, but they don't bother me terribly. And I understand the allure, as the sheer amount of various schisms, heresies and wars of religion connected to Christianity (I know other religions also had them, but that model is much more  known to the majority of RPers, who are after all mostly people from Christian - European culture sphere) is great material for gaming, with it's richness of conflict.

Quote from: Old Geezer;714502"It's just a dumb game."  -- Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Early GREYHAWK featured the First Church of Crom, Scientist, Mitra's Witnesses, and the Church of Latter Day Great Old Ones.

We got the point that you'd consider an average RPG session these days "too much RP in my wargaming" 20 unfunny anecdotes ago, thanks.

Quote from: Baron;714517I don't want to offend others. I don't want to see my real-life religion mangled, misinterpreted and mistreated. I don't like thinly-disguised preaching. And if we allow a fantasy version of Christianity in our games, shouldn't it be the fully-realized version of Christianity? In other words, where no one and nothing can stand against the power of Christ?

Well, no, not really, especially not if there are multiple competing religions; quasi-Christianity vs quasi-Islam, for instance.  You can't have a real-world-ish setting with religious conflict among multiple religions where any one religion always wins. All the religions think their one is the best/truest, and usually have some facts on the ground to point to in support - victorious battles and suchlike.

Quote from: Rincewind1;714642We got the point that you'd consider an average RPG session these days "too much RP in my wargaming" 20 unfunny anecdotes ago, thanks.

I may tell unfunny anecdotes, but you're a dick.
Some people find my jokes funny, but you're still a dick.

Besides, it wasn't a joke.  People worry too fucking much about dumb shit and call it roleplaying.

But you only get 9/10 because you forgot to accuse me of "rollplaying" hurr durr hurr durr hurr durr...

Quote from: Old Geezer;714648I may tell unfunny anecdotes, but you're a dick.
Some people find my jokes funny, but you're still a dick.

Besides, it wasn't a joke.  People worry too fucking much about dumb shit and call it roleplaying.

But you only get 9/10 because you forgot to accuse me of "rollplaying" hurr durr hurr durr hurr durr...

I was expecting the usual pissing on boots, but I both appreciate the effort (well, that's a lie) and don't make lightly of prostate troubles.

Quote from: S'mon;714646Well, no, not really, especially not if there are multiple competing religions; quasi-Christianity vs quasi-Islam, for instance.  You can't have a real-world-ish setting with religious conflict among multiple religions where any one religion always wins. All the religions think their one is the best/truest, and usually have some facts on the ground to point to in support - victorious battles and suchlike.

Of course, the relativistic religion gets problematic, when you are ensured of existence of every single god ;).

Quote from: Ravenswing;714449Can we pretty please not have purported fantasy religions being just like the Roman Catholic church, circa 1870, only with the serial numbers filed off?[/COLOR]

Interesting. Why pick 1870 as representative for RPG versions of Catholicism? My thought was most RPGs focus on a medieval Catholic church for their theft.

Quote from: Mathias;714471The rules for courting divine favor come from a British game from the 80s called Fantasy Wargaming: The Highest Level of All.

That is a great book, and chock full of weird. Absolutely a must for anybody who loves to read stuff from the early days of RPGs.

I'll take pseudo-Christianity over the shotgun-splatter smorgasbord found in most rpg settings.

Quote from: Spinachcat;714670Interesting. Why pick 1870 as representative for RPG versions of Catholicism? My thought was most RPGs focus on a medieval Catholic church for their theft.

Most RPG authors think they mimic the "medieval" Catholic Church, I figure.  This falls under the Gamers Are Crappy Historians truism, though.

The truth is that a great many of the elements we see in RPG setting religions -- a Curia-analogue with many highly formalized positions, statutory vestments, infallible proclamations, a general lack of schisms or deep, openly hostile factions, the subordination of nationalist divisions to the center of the faith, holy texts available in the vernacular to all, a relative lack of temporal titles or pervasive corruption amongst the clergy, clergy widely viewed as set apart from the laity, prelates who tend not to be great feudal landowners, the supremacy of ecclesiastical authorities over temporal in matters of faith and preference -- are at odds with historical medieval European practice, and much more in tune with the late 19th century church.  

The only time I've even seen a reference to an "antipope" in a game setting was in some Harn material, and that was to past events.  The priests in most settings are faithful to their creeds, and regarded as such by the populace.  The extreme politicizing of the medieval and Renaissance Papacy, where the papal throne was a football between rival Italian families and between the French, Spanish and Holy Roman crowns, just has no parallel in the great majority of settings.

Quote from: S'mon;714217I'm fine with explicit analogues of Christianity: "This is World X's version of medieval Christianity". So, a Monotheist religion that has great political and moral power. I don't like muddled "Christian church with pagan gods at the altar" type affairs, which most D&D settings have. Greyhawk is one of the worst offenders, religion there seems to make no sense at all AFAICT. Forgotten Realms is more pagan and less Christian, but has still had silly ideas of compulsory patron deities and treating the different gods as different religions. Not long ago I had a player reluctant to have her Ranger PC pray to Kelemvor for a dead man's safe journey to the afterlife (Kelemvor being the shepherd of the dead) - she was worried her patron goddess Mielikki would be offended!

This.

I would find a monotheistic setting cool (complete with political and religious rivalries). I would find a polytheistic setting cool (Runequest style cults). I would find a setting that mixes different types of religions (like Game of Thrones) cool.

What I don't like is what usually happens with D&D: there is a giant collection of gods that everyone agrees exist. They may or may not be like a pantheon, but regardless everyone picks one god out of the bunch and worships them in a monotheistic style, though they all tend to tolerate each other.

Some religious ideas I'd like to use in a fantasy game:
* A monotheistic setting where there is a strong religious / political structure with various political and religious factions that cross kingdom boundaries. Have one god that does objectively exist, but not everyone agrees what the god wants or what the proper method of worship is. Conspiracy plots, secret sects, and religious wars run rampant.

* A polytheistic setting without a pantheon, where each city-state worships its own god and battles with others for religious and political supremacy. If I went this route, I'd also be tempted to go with a more Populous-style method for granting powers to clerics (allowing the performing of miracles based on converting followers, establishing temples, and destroying enemies).

Quote from: Baron;714517It bugs me. Please leave Christianity out of my fantasy (and science fiction) games. I don't want to offend others. I don't want to see my real-life religion mangled, misinterpreted and mistreated.

I think its quite reasonable to go with what you know, so long as players of native characters have some idea of what that is and it doesn't offend your group.

I do like an authentic campaign. If someone is running a campaign in magical ancient greece, then I sure hope they try to make the religion seem...greek, rather than having Deacons of Hercules, Arch-Bishops of Aphrodite or a Pope of Zeus.

Quote from: Ben Rogers;714244The Christian church, if you look at the myriad of denominations and sects, drew much (perhaps even most, and if you read some scholars, all) of it's ritualism and belief structure from the religions that came before.

The concept of a Messiah figure was not new in Jesus' time - nor even a virgin birth, a death and resurrection, sacrificial atonement for sins.  

You only have to look at the Egyptian cult(s) of Isis to find analogies to the confessional.

Nearly everything in the Christian church can be found in older, deeper roots of other religions.

So, slapping another deity on top of an existing hierarchy doesn't strike me as any more "intellectual laziness" as, oh, say, not inventing a completely different language.

Most of medieval roleplaying is taking a given set of historical references and tossing a few new things into the mix to see what kind of ripples result.

There's a lot to be said for giving the GMs and players interesting twists while providing them with something familiar to grasp.

If it were "intellectual laziness" then it would be a closer replica of Christianity "with the serial numbers filed off" - which has been done before, over and over again.

As a follower of the teachings of Christ and a student of history, I rather enjoy other people's takes on the "what if Christianity was a little different?".

Knowing that you're obviously not just christian but very serious about it, I think that's an interesting admission.  Most US protestant/fundamentalist/evangelicals are kind of desperate to try to claim that Christianity was something really unique (to the point that many try to claim that any apparently parallels were actually cases of pagans copying christianity, even if the dates don't add up).

RPGPundit

I avoid faux-christianity because I find that to be terribly insulting to real life faith.

Instead, I actually do some work on the world creation and mythology, because 'meh' and just throwing up some faux-christianity pastiche is just as lazy as the Forgotten Realms style smorgasboard that Dan Bulter rightly mocks.  The real problem with portrayal of religion in fantasy gaming is that we want inoffensive sorta-religions. If you're going to have active gods in your setting, then you need to give them some hard thought, because they are in effect powers in your world. Even Eru Illuvatar and the Valar in Tolkien were active, if distant, players - just as the Lords of Law and Chaos or the Gods of Newhon were in their respective settings. Even if you have an atheist setting, you're still not off the hook - in fantasy settings, people believe in various forms of religion, mythology and mysticism, even if there are no magical powers associated with such. Crypts and Things specifically does this,if memory serves.

Most of the problems with Crystal Dragon Jesus comes from GMs who are too lazy to seriously consider religion in their setting and it's impact in setting creation. Religion should be like everything else in the setting - unique as you want to make it.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;715584I avoid faux-christianity because I find that to be terribly insulting to real life faith..

As a Christian myself, I wrote High Valor to /not/ mock my faith (or anyones) but to simply be something you'd see in the time period I chose and the fictional world I'd created.

t took more work to come up with something I felt wasn't mocking, was functional, interesting, than say my current D&D settings which has evolved from a bunch of random rolls into a cohesive thing I build from random parts (because, I didn't want to do a lot of hard work when I started it...and now its hard work and I'm loving it because its different than what I'd have written otherwise.)

"Crystal Dragon Jesus" keeps me humming "Crystal Blue Persuasion." Look it up online, great song. But the dreamy vibe would go well, I think... ;)

Quote from: jgants;714978Some religious ideas I'd like to use in a fantasy game:
* A monotheistic setting where there is a strong religious / political structure with various political and religious factions that cross kingdom boundaries. Have one god that does objectively exist, but not everyone agrees what the god wants or what the proper method of worship is. Conspiracy plots, secret sects, and religious wars run rampant.

* A polytheistic setting without a pantheon, where each city-state worships its own god and battles with others for religious and political supremacy. If I went this route, I'd also be tempted to go with a more Populous-style method for granting powers to clerics (allowing the performing of miracles based on converting followers, establishing temples, and destroying enemies).

That sounds pretty damned awesome, both ideas.

The usual D&D cleric issues solve themselves when the setting is more concrete than the usual HEY LETS DUNGEON vague mush many folks use when playing D&D.

One of the gaming bits I'm most proud of producing[1] is a writeup of a medieval church that was intended to be as much like medieval Christianity in form and doctrine as possible, without actually being Christianity.  I started with Roman Mithraism and ended up with something that feels very like the medieval church, but with its own dogma, history, parables, and ranks of initiation.

[1] Most stuff I produce is half-assed shite with a half-life of about two hours - I get paid to manage servers, not play elfgames

Quote from: daniel_ream;715914One of the gaming bits I'm most proud of producing[1] is a writeup of a medieval church that was intended to be as much like medieval Christianity in form and doctrine as possible, without actually being Christianity.  I started with Roman Mithraism and ended up with something that feels very like the medieval church, but with its own dogma, history, parables, and ranks of initiation.

Load it up and link it, I'd be very interested to take a look!

Almost all fantasy religions feel like "Crystal dragon Jesus" to me.

Quote from: Arduin;714518If we allow a fantasy version of Zeus in our games,  shouldn't it be the fully-realized version of Olympic deities? In other  words, where no one and nothing can stand against the power of Zeus if he so chooses?

Not much of a game that way, is it?  ;)

AFAIK, no one is currently worshiping Zeus, so who's to be offended?

Quote from: jgants;714978What I don't like is what usually happens with D&D: there is a giant collection of gods that everyone agrees exist. They may or may not be like a pantheon, but regardless everyone picks one god out of the bunch and worships them in a monotheistic style, though they all tend to tolerate each other.

I want to gripe about this, too, and I think the Pathfinder pantheon is one of the worst offenders.  I find many of their deities simply make no sense.  None!

http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Lamashtu

Mother of monsters.  Okay...  Loves deformities, and is, for some reason Chaotic evil.  She really seems too tolerant to qualify as 'evil' to me.  And matronly.  She wants to make more monsters, but isn't that largely just procreation?

And why do gnolls consider themselves deformed??  Wouldn't gnolls consider themselves to be beautiful and the rest of us to be ugly?

I don't know.  It just feels like about fifteen minutes of thought put to pen and expanded upon over time.  It does not feel like a 'god' to me.

Now, loving deformities would make a GREAT feature of a chaotic neutral deity (to revel in the chaos of it), but I expect too much...

I'm just going to pop in and say that TVTropes is awful.

Quote from: mcbobbo;716972http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Lamashtu

Mother of monsters.  Okay...  Loves deformities, and is, for some reason Chaotic evil.  She really seems too tolerant to qualify as 'evil' to me.  And matronly.  She wants to make more monsters, but isn't that largely just procreation?

She was a demon lord who ascended to godhood, this is pretty obvious if you think about it for two seconds.

Quote from: mcbobbo;716972I want to gripe about this, too, and I think the Pathfinder pantheon is one of the worst offenders.  I find many of their deities simply make no sense.  None!

http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Lamashtu

Mother of monsters.  Okay...  Loves deformities, and is, for some reason Chaotic evil.  She really seems too tolerant to qualify as 'evil' to me.  And matronly.  She wants to make more monsters, but isn't that largely just procreation?

And why do gnolls consider themselves deformed??  Wouldn't gnolls consider themselves to be beautiful and the rest of us to be ugly?

I don't know.  It just feels like about fifteen minutes of thought put to pen and expanded upon over time.  It does not feel like a 'god' to me.

Now, loving deformities would make a GREAT feature of a chaotic neutral deity (to revel in the chaos of it), but I expect too much...

Pretty sure this is based on a Mesopotamian deity of the same name, with many similar characteristics.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;717081I'm just going to pop in and say that TVTropes is awful.

When a site identifying Tropes can't define a single one without using the terms of bare minimum 12 others, time to hang it up, your wankfest has become too smugly ironic for its own good.

Quote from: CRKrueger;717164When a site identifying Tropes can't define a single one without using the terms of bare minimum 12 others, time to hang it up, your wankfest has become too smugly ironic for its own good.

It's not so much that it's smug, it's that it (as with all nerd pursuits) is very insular and circlejerky.  The site also caters to the worst of nerddom, including bronies, furries, and fan fiction writers.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;717081I'm just going to pop in and say that TVTropes is awful.

Alot of garbage and alot of interesting factoids. Its degraded over the years though unfortunately and slides a little more to mocking than listing half the time now it feels.

Quote from: Old Geezer;714502"It's just a dumb game."  -- Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Early GREYHAWK featured the First Church of Crom, Scientist, Mitra's Witnesses, and the Church of Latter Day Great Old Ones.

The folks with whom I play D&D tend not to get hung up on treating things with Serious Gravity, either.

I ran one scenario inspired by R.E. Howard's "The Gods of Bal-Sagoth," and in my version the rival of the girl "goddess" had a Ron Hubbard kind of take on the usual Lord of Darkness deal. Hearing a sales pitch, a couple of players recognized the references and got a good laugh out of it.

They weren't laughing so much when he seemed about to whup their butts aboard his flying saucer, but that kind of swing is cool with this group.

Quote from: mcbobbo;716969AFAIK, no one is currently worshiping Zeus, so who's to be offended?

I know people who worship Zeus.  Or at least, pretend to.