Quote from: Benoist;651219Vacuums in the dungeon are usually refilled by other monsters, not to mention, if you include factions and the like, the dynamic in the dungeon is going to change over time ... Think of it as a dynamic place. Not a still picture "on pause" while the PCs are away.

The need for the dungeonmaster to think through and contrive all this comes from atrophy in campaign scope, in terms of number and activity of players.

In the early heyday, there was not just one little, joined at the hip group of characters in the campaign. For that matter, players could have monsters as characters.

Player initiative took care of a lot of stuff quite naturally!

Quote from: Phillip;651230The need for the dungeonmaster to think through and contrive all this comes from atrophy in campaign scope, in terms of number and activity of players.

In the early heyday, there was not just one little, joined at the hip group of characters in the campaign. For that matter, players could have monsters as characters.

Player initiative took care of a lot of stuff quite naturally!

True. Thing is, you don't have to have 12 players at your table three different times a week to enjoy that kind of organic development. Introduce an open game table policy to your games, and you'll see very similar results unfold, no matter the size of your groups from one day to the next.

Quote from: The Butcher;651216Not really. Misery Tourism is defined by the lack of a fighting chance. Players in Fantasy Fucking Vietnam, like soldiers in the eponymous war, have the odds stacked up against them, forcing them to wise up to the dangers of the dungeon. But a proper old school dungeon crawl isn't unbeatable. Even the infamous Tomb of Horrors, which Gygax created to best his cleverest players (Ernie Gygax and Rob Kuntz) was "defeated" by a combination of tactical thinking and luck.

Minor nitpick.  Gary said he created Tomb of Horrors not for his cleverest players, but as an answer to those unnamed players at cons who bragged they could beat any adventure.

Now that we've got the figurative meaning of "Fantasy Viet Nam" out of the way, I think the idea of a campaign set in a parallel fantasy universe, where the PCs are in a Viet Nam like country, drafted as special forces or whatever, to fight the inhuman hordes.

Toss in a tunnel network so that the "monsters" can pop up most anywhere, abusive "charm person" abilities so that traitors and informants are common, desperate men-at-arms engaging in every more bizarre/draconian behavior to "win" the unwinnable war...just seems like there's a real campaign there.

Or a nightmare. Whatever.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;651233Minor nitpick.  Gary said he created Tomb of Horrors not for his cleverest players, but as an answer to those unnamed players at cons who bragged they could beat any adventure.

Tomb of Horrors, as far as I know from talking to Rob and Ernie, was actually specifically created to fuck with Rob Kuntz, because Rob was very clever, knew Gary's usual tactics, and all things considered was an amazing player with an amazing memory, the kind of memory that allowed him to memorize the maps of each level and never draw them, which basically made Gary's efforts at confusion all the harder. Rob is actually the only player who made it through (just like he was the first player to make it to the bottom of Castle Greyhawk and find the Slide to China there), basically sacrificing his orc army and using his uber-orc henchman whose name I don't remember right off the bat to trigger the traps, poke at stuff and so on until he finally made it to the end (there was a magical flying carpet involved too, that I remember. I know the orc henchman was basically using it and ended up making a hole into it to wear it as a poncho, then there were rolls whenever they would do stuff with the carpet to see if stuff fell through and the like LOL). Anyway. Ernie did go through the Tomb of Horrors as well, but basically backed off once he hit valuable treasure, instead of pushing on to the end (a valid tactic in and of itself).

Quote from: Benoist;651232True. Thing is, you don't have to have 12 players at your table three different times a week to enjoy that kind of organic development. Introduce an open game table policy to your games, and you'll see very similar results unfold, no matter the size of your groups from one day to the next.

Yes, it is the total traffic that most matters. Also, as Alexander has rediscovered, the basic setup of underworld, wilderness and town is very well suited to being a game you can just pull out and play at any time.

(At some point, the time horizons for active players will get too out of sync if you give some too much game time per real time.)

I'll have to find it, but I swear I just read a dragon magazine where he answered it and said it was for know it all players at a con.  I don't suppose it matters in the grand scale though.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;651241I'll have to find it, but I swear I just read a dragon magazine where he answered it and said it was for know it all players at a con.  I don't suppose it matters in the grand scale though.

Well if he words it that way in The Dragon it's actually not contradicting what I know. That is, the Tomb of Horrors first came up in Gary's campaign to fuck with Rob and so on, but then later it was revised and actually published as the module we know, which Gary could have described as "a module specifically designed for know it all players at Cons" or some such.

Know it all players in the official D&D tournament at the very first Origins convention, wasn't it?

Quote from: Doom;651237Now that we've got the figurative meaning of "Fantasy Viet Nam" out of the way, I think the idea of a campaign set in a parallel fantasy universe, where the PCs are in a Viet Nam like country, drafted as special forces or whatever, to fight the inhuman hordes.

Toss in a tunnel network so that the "monsters" can pop up most anywhere, abusive "charm person" abilities so that traitors and informants are common, desperate men-at-arms engaging in every more bizarre/draconian behavior to "win" the unwinnable war...just seems like there's a real campaign there.

The Black Company series of books is more or less like this. Or it could be a description of the thirty years war in Europe.

Quote from: Phillip;651254Know it all players in the official D&D tournament at the very first Origins convention, wasn't it?

That's where the published module made its debut so that's probably it.

Edit. Here's what it says on Wikipedia about the origins of the module:

QuoteTomb of Horrors was written by Gary Gygax for official D&D tournament play at the 1975 Origins 1 convention.[3][5][6] Gygax developed the adventure from an idea by Alan Lucien, one of his original AD&D playtesters, "and I admit to chuckling evilly as I did so."[7] Gygax designed the Tomb of Horrors modules for two related purposes. First, Gygax explains, "There were several very expert players in my campaign, and this was meant as yet another challenge to their skill—and the persistence of their theretofore-invincible characters. Specifically, I had in mind foiling Rob Kuntz's PC, Robilar, and Ernie Gygax's PC, Tenser." Second, so that he was "ready for those fans [players] who boasted of having mighty PCs able to best any challenge offered by the AD&D game."[8]

So it looks like we're right, Sacrosanct. Neither of us got it "wrong". It's both, in fact.

Quote from: Benoist;651357So it looks like we're right, Sacrosanct. Neither of us got it "wrong". It's both, in fact.

We're both right.  I'm cool with that

Orc Stain, fantasy Vietnam.

Quote from: gleichman;651109The more I read, the more it sounds like a primitive version of Torchbearer.

I see what you did there.