Quote from: Daddy Warpig;651082So, let me restate: This is fantasy roleplaying at its "grittiest". A desperate expedition into the (largely) unexplored tunnel complexes, said tunnels being filled with enemies (human and otherwise) and deadly traps.

The goals may be to neutralize enemies, become rich, or locate a specific treasure. (Among other possible goals.) All of those require negotiating dimly-lit, hazardous passages deep beneath the earth.

The death toll is high, because missteps are easy to make, and mistakes are nearly always lethal. Which means this mode is probably

Yes, as far as Fantasy Fucking Vietnam is concerned, mind you, which is another notch up in the ladder of lethality and grittiness from what I'd consider "normal" OS dungeon crawling. So FFV is gritty, deadly, but it gives the players a fighting chance nonetheless, if they're smart, well organized, etc. It's not the magical misery tour, in other words. It's a challenge, a hard one, and there's no actual challenge if you can't possibly win ever in the first place.

Gritty, yes. Misery tourism, no.

Up the ladder of FFV in even grittier deadly territory, as an uber-challenge implying death even when you're doing everything right, with the challenge itself being how long/how many characters it'd take you to "win", you'll find something like Tomb of Horrors, which is thus NOT the base line of dungeon adventuring, let's be clear about that.

Quote from: Benoist;651091Yes, as far as Fantasy Fucking Vietnam is concerned, mind you, which is another notch up in the ladder lethality and grittiness from what I'd consider "normal" OS dungeon crawling.

Which would be largely the same thing, but with the lethality dialed down a little? (Or a lot.)

EDIT:

Video game analogy: FFV is "hardcore mode" for dungeoncrawling. Easy to die, but a challenge, and for people who like that, overcoming a fair and difficult challenge is viscerally fulfilling.

Quote from: Benoist;651091Gritty, yes. Misery tourism, no.

If it was Luke Crane or any story game author using the descriptions in this thread, Misery Tourism is exactly what you'd call it.

And really is exactly what it is. But it being in a dungeon makes it all cool.

Video games in the FFV vein a fun as well...

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;651092Which would be largely the same thing, but with the lethality dialed down a little? (Or a lot.)

EDIT:

Video game analogy: FFV is "hardcore mode" for dungeoncrawling. Easy to die, but a challenge, and for people who like that, overcoming a fair and difficult challenge is viscerally fulfilling.

Basically yes, that's what I'm implying. FFV from my standpoint is not just more lethal, but more difficult, in terms of challenge, generally speaking. Whether we're talking puzzles, tactics, resource management and so on.

Quote from: Benoist;651099FFV from my standpoint is not just more lethal, but more difficult, in terms of challenge, generally speaking. Whether we're talking puzzles, tactics, resource management and so on.

More puzzles/traps, more complex puzzles/traps, a greater emphasis on encumbrance (which limits available resources like food, light, ammunition, and so forth).

As regards tactics, I assume you're talking about how to approach the dungeon, rather than fighting tactics.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;651104As regards tactics, I assume you're talking about how to approach the dungeon, rather than fighting tactics.

Yes. Tactics in a general sense.

The more I read, the more it sounds like a primitive version of Torchbearer.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;651104...

The Bandit level of the Brazen Crown (working name) could possibly make for a good setting for FFV. In terms of a basic dungeon crawling, it's not a level that's meant to be "cleaned up" right away in the campaign. You're going to go back and forth at different points of the campaign to and from this place, more like, rather than just wiping it out to be done once and for all with it at level 1-3. It could be usable for hardcore FFV not so much in terms of puzzles and the like, but in terms of exploration, with specific objectives and get in and out of the place alive, of taking over the place and so on, this can be quite a challenge because it's a primary lair with a lot of stuff going on inside.

So you can play some pretty standard dungeon crawling if you're exploring and then decide to avoid the place for a while or hire some help, become part of a guild or become a Lord or whatnot to be able to take it later on in the campaign, but if you are playing with just that at low level you can have some pretty hardcore games out of it.

I'm going to describe all that later on in the series along with the possible objectives bringing players to the level, possible evolutions of the level throughout the campaign, and so on.

See I always took it to mean implied play style of not holding captured territory. As in the endless cycle of players leave home base with objective, clear area of monsters, then return to home base. Then monsters return to cleared area. Similar to how army patrols would leave base, clear the area of VC, then return to base and the VC creep back into cleared areas.

Pete

Quote from: gleichman;651093If it was Luke Crane or any story game author using the descriptions in this thread, Misery Tourism is exactly what you'd call it.

And really is exactly what it is. But it being in a dungeon makes it all cool.

Not really. Misery Tourism is defined by the lack of a fighting chance. Players in Fantasy Fucking Vietnam, like soldiers in the eponymous war, have the odds stacked up against them, forcing them to wise up to the dangers of the dungeon. But a proper old school dungeon crawl isn't unbeatable. Even the infamous Tomb of Horrors, which Gygax created to best his cleverest players (Ernie Gygax and Rob Kuntz) was "defeated" by a combination of tactical thinking and luck.

Quote from: pspahn;651192See I always took it to mean implied play style of not holding captured territory. As in the endless cycle of players leave home base with objective, clear area of monsters, then return to home base. Then monsters return to cleared area. Similar to how army patrols would leave base, clear the area of VC, then return to base and the VC creep back into cleared areas.

Pete

Look at pages 107 and 109 of your AD&D 1st ed player's handbook. The advice for Successful Adventures include the mention of the party deciding on an objective, going for it, and then, making it back to town and/or taking a break from the dungeon, going about their business in the wilderness, selling loot, hiring henchmen and the like, then deciding on another objective, and going back to the dungeon from there. Like "this time we're going to go back at this entrance we found and see what's in there" and go.

Vacuums in the dungeon are usually filled by other monsters. If you include factions and the like, the dynamic in the dungeon is going to change over time: this group is going to grow, this other one is going to shrink, this one is going to be wiped out after the PCs did most of the work because that other group will take the opportunity while the PCs are in town. This level is going to be taken over by this overpopulated faction of that other level. This trap is going to be reset by the duergar, but not that one, because it's magical and they're afraid of it. Etc. Think of it as a dynamic place. Not a still picture "on pause" while the PCs are away.

Quote from: The Butcher;651216Misery Tourism is defined by the lack of a fighting chance. Players in Fantasy Fucking Vietnam, like soldiers in the eponymous war, have the odds stacked up against them, forcing them to wise up to the dangers of the dungeon. But a proper old school dungeon crawl isn't unbeatable. Even the infamous Tomb of Horrors, which Gygax created to best his cleverest players (Ernie Gygax and Rob Kuntz) was "defeated" by a combination of tactical thinking and luck.

Yes.

Quote from: Benoist;651219Look at pages 107 and 109 of your AD&D 1st ed player's handbook. The advice for Successful Adventures ...

... is one of the most widely available indications of what the underworld portion of old-style D&D campaigns is like. People with little else will have to "reverse engineer" from the advice to the context.

Quote from: Phillip;651226... is one of the most widely available indications of what the underworld portion of old-style D&D campaigns is like. People with little else will have to "reverse engineer" from the advice to the context.

And actually read the Dungeon Master's Guide. Not just use the tables and appendices here and there. Yes.