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Author Topic: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions  (Read 2812 times)

Jaeger

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2021, 06:53:37 PM »
This thread made me think of this video I saw today. ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ofqIc1g1nI&pp=sAQA

Big fan of that Kind of Stuff:



...
It's realistic and reasonable for an adventuring party to have many people like this, in addition of course to men-at-arms. Whether realism and reason are part of your campaign is another matter, of course, and whether any of this ought to be reflected in game mechanics something else still.

To me RPG's are not reality emulators - they are Genre emulators, and one needs to decide how grounded in 'reality' they want the genre of their game world to be.

IMHO - grounding adds to verisimilitude for me.

Most GM's 'handwave' encumbrance so long as the players keep it "reasonable", because the systems are so insanely generous.

As a matter of play - generous encumbrance systems are Bad game design.

IMHO players and GM's would engage with encumbrance systems in games more if they mattered more.  With a more restrictive system for encumbrance that was more grounded - PC's would have to make harder choices what they are carrying on adventures.

This adds tension to the game as the number of arrows a PC can carry would now matter. They are now worth tracking instead of just 'handwaving'.

The possibility of 'running out of arrows' mid-adventure now becomes a thing.

Torches, rations, How exactly are you going to carry out all that loot again??

Player hate inflicting any kind of penalties on themselves - In such a gaming situation they will go out of their way to carry what they 'need' without taking any kind of encumbrance based 'movement' penalties.

So the players themselves will drive that added tension of tracking low supplies by willingly not carrying anything more than they absolutely can without penalties.

It would be a balance you would have to strike - I think that making a system that takes into account Bulk along with weight would be a better solution. Assigning a 'Load' value to items rather than going by pure weight like most systems do.

The encumbrance system used in lamentations of the flame princess is far closer to what more games should be.









« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 07:00:49 PM by Jaeger »
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SHARK

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2021, 08:52:19 PM »
This thread made me think of this video I saw today. ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ofqIc1g1nI&pp=sAQA

Big fan of that Kind of Stuff:



...
It's realistic and reasonable for an adventuring party to have many people like this, in addition of course to men-at-arms. Whether realism and reason are part of your campaign is another matter, of course, and whether any of this ought to be reflected in game mechanics something else still.

To me RPG's are not reality emulators - they are Genre emulators, and one needs to decide how grounded in 'reality' they want the genre of their game world to be.

IMHO - grounding adds to verisimilitude for me.

Most GM's 'handwave' encumbrance so long as the players keep it "reasonable", because the systems are so insanely generous.

As a matter of play - generous encumbrance systems are Bad game design.

IMHO players and GM's would engage with encumbrance systems in games more if they mattered more.  With a more restrictive system for encumbrance that was more grounded - PC's would have to make harder choices what they are carrying on adventures.

This adds tension to the game as the number of arrows a PC can carry would now matter. They are now worth tracking instead of just 'handwaving'.

The possibility of 'running out of arrows' mid-adventure now becomes a thing.

Torches, rations, How exactly are you going to carry out all that loot again??

Player hate inflicting any kind of penalties on themselves - In such a gaming situation they will go out of their way to carry what they 'need' without taking any kind of encumbrance based 'movement' penalties.

So the players themselves will drive that added tension of tracking low supplies by willingly not carrying anything more than they absolutely can without penalties.

It would be a balance you would have to strike - I think that making a system that takes into account Bulk along with weight would be a better solution. Assigning a 'Load' value to items rather than going by pure weight like most systems do.

The encumbrance system used in lamentations of the flame princess is far closer to what more games should be.

Greetings!

I agree, Jaeger! I'm pretty strict with encumbrance. It creates tension, inspires hard choices, and has an added benefit of forcing players to return to town or some other settlement to restock themselves on all kinds of supplies, from arrows, to water, rations, torches, rope, tools, and other gear. That also adds more opportunities for players to actually *role-play* amongst themselves and with other NPC's, and low and behold--their characters don't feel like two-dimensional game pieces, and increases immersion in the game world. It also creates a dynamic of *realism* where players are very much *mortal*--and pushes against the notion of everyone being a superhero that can blithely ignore such concerns of "lesser mortals".

What is the Encumbrance System in LOTFP all about? Can you detail it here, my friend?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Pat
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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2021, 09:37:29 PM »
What is the Encumbrance System in LOTFP all about? Can you detail it here, my friend?
Raggi (admittedly) copied Delta's stone system of encumbrance. This is the original:

https://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/09/stone-encumbrance-detail-example.html

SHARK

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2021, 10:26:59 PM »
What is the Encumbrance System in LOTFP all about? Can you detail it here, my friend?
Raggi (admittedly) copied Delta's stone system of encumbrance. This is the original:

https://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/09/stone-encumbrance-detail-example.html

Greetings!

Thank you, Pat! That's a very interesting Encumbrance system!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

hedgehobbit

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2021, 08:25:52 PM »
To me RPG's are not reality emulators - they are Genre emulators, and one needs to decide how grounded in 'reality' they want the genre of their game world to be.

IMHO - grounding adds to verisimilitude for me.

I go back and forth about encumbrance systems. On one hand, you need something to prevent the players going all out but OTOH, most of the penalty goes away as soon as a player buys a horse (or, worse yet, get's a cart).

Plus, if you are concerned about modeling reality, encumbrance shouldn't make a character slower, but make them tire faster. To me this has been a more effective penalty as often once combat starts a character's movement rate doesn't really make much difference and I'd argue that "exploration" speed is already so slow (at least in D&D) that it shouldn't be affected by encumbrance at all. 

Quote
The encumbrance system used in lamentations of the flame princess is far closer to what more games should be.

Given the rest of your post, I'm surprised you recommended the LotFP system as I found it too gamey and overly complex.

S'mon

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2021, 06:45:34 AM »
IRL large scale wilderness expeditions of the kind contemplated in 1e AD&D tended to be about 30 people, often with native guides. The Lewis & Clark expedition and another American one into the Gobi Desert ca 1930 I recall were both that size. You also see this in the old Tarzan films and suchlike. FRPGs tend to default to more of a Fellowship of the Ring model with a single-digit size group; which makes some sense when the members are all of superhuman proficiency.

IMCs the PCs are more commonly in borderland regions where they can usually spend the night at an inn, farmhouse or (at worst) abandoned farmhouse. My Primeval Thule game did have larger scale expeditions & had a mix of expedition sizes; but typically the PCs would have a ship with double-digit crew that took them to the vicinity of the adventure location, then the small PC-group expedition would set off from the ship using it or a local settlement as base camp.

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2021, 07:04:13 AM »
There were 15 people in The Hobbit's party - 13 dwarves, plus Gandalf and Bilbo. Then 9 in the Fellowship of the Ring.

Not quite the 30+ companies we're talking about, but larger than many adventuring parties in D&D.
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Steven Mitchell

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2021, 01:41:09 PM »
To me RPG's are not reality emulators - they are Genre emulators, and one needs to decide how grounded in 'reality' they want the genre of their game world to be.

IMHO - grounding adds to verisimilitude for me.

I go back and forth about encumbrance systems. On one hand, you need something to prevent the players going all out but OTOH, most of the penalty goes away as soon as a player buys a horse (or, worse yet, get's a cart).

Plus, if you are concerned about modeling reality, encumbrance shouldn't make a character slower, but make them tire faster. To me this has been a more effective penalty as often once combat starts a character's movement rate doesn't really make much difference and I'd argue that "exploration" speed is already so slow (at least in D&D) that it shouldn't be affected by encumbrance at all. 

Quote
The encumbrance system used in lamentations of the flame princess is far closer to what more games should be.

Given the rest of your post, I'm surprised you recommended the LotFP system as I found it too gamey and overly complex.

I keep tinkering with encumbrance, trying to hit a sweet spot between a system with teeth that creates real choices but not tracking everything.  I'm content to sacrifice a little verisimilitude (or even consistency) to get teeth + simplicity.   I think there almost has to be a mix of hard tracking and hand waving to pull that off.  For example, your readily accessible arrows and daggers and such are tracked.  Your loose change, some small basic gear, etc. gets rolled up into a pouch that you either have the whole thing or you don't--1 encumbrance unit no matter how much you have in there or just ignore it entirely (doesn't really matter if building the system from the ground up).  Yeah, that bag of 200 gold coins you found is heavy.  That's tracked. 

Another thing I'm experimenting with--in part to encourage followers, camp guards, pack animals, etc.-- is what I'm calling "party encumbrance".  The rough idea is that each party member donates a few encumbrance slots to party stuff--torches, food, water, extra ammo, etc.  Things that get carried and used in bulk.  It's assumed that these are roughly distributed to the party members.  So if someone needs it right now, I'll use GM fiat to let them have it, usually.  However, each person is responsible for tracking the bulk of their dedicated slots.  So Bob isn't tracking 2 rations, 1 waterskin, 6 spare arrows, 3 flasks of oil, etc.  He's tracking 2 encumbrance slots worth of rations, and marking them off as the group eats.  If they start to run out of something, then they have to specify who has it--however by then it doesn't weight much so it goes into the hand waved miscellaneous section of the equipment list (e.g. isn't tracked). 

The other key to me is accessibility and containers.  How are you carrying all that stuff and how fast can you get to it in a crisis?  If it ready to hand, it counts, because it is on a belt or in a pouch or such. It's not buried in the bottom of your backpack, packed very carefully against breakage, and hard to pull out in a hurry. 

I do track bulk separately from weight for items where it matters.  That's rolled up into the encumbrance stat (ENC) which is informed by but separate from weight. 

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2021, 01:51:37 PM »
BTW, I looked at several "stone" based encumbrance systems before doing mine, though it was long ago and evolved through several other attempts.  The Delta system probably informed mine, either directly or indirectly.  I ended up using "stone" to be 12 pounds, breaking the historical accuracy part in order to have 12 pound divisions for partial units, all of which are set at either 1, 2, 3, 4, or 6 pounds so that an even number fit in 1 stone.  There's something to be said for splitting the difference and using Delta's 1/3 marker for consistency.

jhkim

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2021, 02:22:33 PM »
Regarding encumbrance systems -- if one has a large expedition then tracking all individual items like number of arrows and torches quickly becomes a big headache of bookkeeping. Thus, I prefer to do encumbrance more by GM fiat than by exact calculation, like "You're starting to run low on supplies" rather than making players have spreadsheets of all the supplies.

I used a loose system for both encumbrance and wealth for my Vinland game, because tracking individual items was too much bookkeeping.

There were 15 people in The Hobbit's party - 13 dwarves, plus Gandalf and Bilbo. Then 9 in the Fellowship of the Ring.

Not quite the 30+ companies we're talking about, but larger than many adventuring parties in D&D.

I think LotR is the model for much of D&D, though. They travel extremely light, and for much of the books it is smaller parties -- at first the four hobbits, then five with Aragorn -- and later the split fellowship with two on one side and five on the other. They have very little amenities or supplies mentioned other than lembas. Emulating this is the default for a lot of D&D parties. And there's nothing wrong with that -- it's fun, and if supply trains aren't fun for the players, I don't think it should be done.

Jaeger

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2021, 04:19:22 PM »
Quote
The encumbrance system used in lamentations of the flame princess is far closer to what more games should be.

Given the rest of your post, I'm surprised you recommended the LotFP system as I found it too gamey and overly complex.

Closer is the operative word here for me. I agree that you are basically correct in your assessment, but it is a step in the right direction.

LoTFP is better than 5e D&D because at least it is laid out in a way that actually makes the players engage with the enc system. it makes pg2 of a character sheet actually useful.

In normal D&D everything just has a weight - you are supposed to add it all together then note how "encumbered" you are. (all in a small lined area on your character sheet.)

Yeah, no wonder it gets hand waved a lot when those "weight limits" to be encumbered are so generous...

I think a system that has it all set up on the character sheet forces players to engage it, and tight limits makes it meaningful.

Personally I would want a system that takes 'bulk' into account for items like some slot based enc systems do, but I haven't seen anything that has hit my sweet spot yet, so I may have to work one out on my own.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 04:21:42 PM by Jaeger »
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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2021, 04:30:19 PM »
BTW, I looked at several "stone" based encumbrance systems before doing mine, though it was long ago and evolved through several other attempts.  The Delta system probably informed mine, either directly or indirectly.  I ended up using "stone" to be 12 pounds, breaking the historical accuracy part in order to have 12 pound divisions for partial units, all of which are set at either 1, 2, 3, 4, or 6 pounds so that an even number fit in 1 stone.  There's something to be said for splitting the difference and using Delta's 1/3 marker for consistency.

I think "stone-based" systems get about the right level of encumbrance per slot, but I dislike equating encumbrance level to weight alone. Bulk matters too.
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Steven Mitchell

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2021, 06:50:54 PM »
BTW, I looked at several "stone" based encumbrance systems before doing mine, though it was long ago and evolved through several other attempts.  The Delta system probably informed mine, either directly or indirectly.  I ended up using "stone" to be 12 pounds, breaking the historical accuracy part in order to have 12 pound divisions for partial units, all of which are set at either 1, 2, 3, 4, or 6 pounds so that an even number fit in 1 stone.  There's something to be said for splitting the difference and using Delta's 1/3 marker for consistency.

I think "stone-based" systems get about the right level of encumbrance per slot, but I dislike equating encumbrance level to weight alone. Bulk matters too.

Agreed.  Even hinted at it later in that same post.  I really need a better word for 12th of my stone, but "pound" was how I thought of it as a rough gauge to start with. 

I made longbows take up the full stone.  So does a quarterstaff. 

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2021, 09:17:21 PM »
I think LotR is the model for much of D&D, though. They travel extremely light, and for much of the books it is smaller parties
I recently read Dunbar's book Friends, and he mentioned studies that a pair is a conversation, 3 people are a conversation, 4 people as well - but 5 or more becomes 2+ conversations. If there are 5+ and one person is speaking, it's not a conversation but a lecture.

With that in mind, splitting large groups into small in fiction is a literary device of convenience. If we are 30 in a room there's no way any single person can keep track of all the different conversations going on. If we described it in writing then we'd pick one conversation and focus on that, at most we might describe a second, "Meanwhile across the room they were saying -"

Now, here's the difference between writing and roleplaying in this respect. In writing we can just have a core group of main characters and not describe the others much. You get this in people's writing about a small village, like Wendell Berry's fictional Port William - the place has a population of hundreds, but he focuses on just a few characters in each story. But that was a town, a fixed place, and he was telling particular kinds of stories - none of them adventure stories. In an adventure story you tend to have to describe what everyone is doing, and it would get tedious to write, "and the camp followers followed along."

But in an rpg you can have the main characters and then the faceless mass follow along. The concept of main and secondary characters is even baked into the early rules, with one group of people having classes and levels, and most people being 0-level commoners (or men-at-arms). It's not as burdensome to have them along.

Now we come back to the bit about LotR. Yes, that's in many players' minds when they come to play. But gaming began with wargaming. That's why it's called an adventuring campaign. Drawing on those ideas and experiences leads to a different kind of play.
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Naburimannu

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2021, 07:38:16 AM »
I keep tinkering with encumbrance, trying to hit a sweet spot between a system with teeth that creates real choices but not tracking everything.  I'm content to sacrifice a little verisimilitude (or even consistency) to get teeth + simplicity.   I think there almost has to be a mix of hard tracking and hand waving to pull that off.  For example, your readily accessible arrows and daggers and such are tracked.  Your loose change, some small basic gear, etc. gets rolled up into a pouch that you either have the whole thing or you don't--1 encumbrance unit no matter how much you have in there or just ignore it entirely (doesn't really matter if building the system from the ground up).  Yeah, that bag of 200 gold coins you found is heavy.  That's tracked. 

I'm playing OSE for the first time right now, and we track individual count of everything - torches, rations, etc - but only individual weight of armour, weapons, and treasure. All the adventuring gear is a flat 80 coins per person.

That's really light, but weight limits are tight enough to really matter anyway - our characters in plate armour are stripping it off for long distance travel, because it speeds the entire party up 50% and we were running into time limits, but just now we got into a short-range dangerous situation where they're both unarmoured. Consequences.