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Author Topic: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions  (Read 2810 times)

thedungeondelver

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2021, 10:53:17 AM »
Apparently Kyle hasnt read the DMG or he'd know that the # encountered is supposed to represent the total spread out across a dungeon level or overland hex. Not all in one go. But for some reason that has been repeatedly lost and mis-read.

There are 11 occurrences of the word "Bandits" in the Dungeon Masters Guide, under none of them does it say "spread out across a dungeon level or overland hex" or even imply it.  Besides, why would Bandits do that?  That sounds like the specious argument about how it "required" five Shermans to take down a Tiger in France during the Normandy invasion.  The US Armor forces didn't send out single tanks to duel!  They were sent out in platoons, of five.  Bandits won't send out penny-packets of troops to deal with an armed, angry force of adventurers.  They'll bring their "army" to bear against them.

As for occupying a dungeon, sure, you're not going to find them all crammed into one room in a circle guarding their treasure hoard and nobody with a lick of sense thinks they will.
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Melichor

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2021, 11:00:08 AM »
I'm older than most here, so to me the "fictional narratives" include movies like Jason and the Argonauts and Seventh Voyage of Sinbad.  Thus large expeditions is totally something that as a DM I encourage. I've even tweaked my OD&D combat system (using rules from EPT) to make it so battles of 30 on 30 are totally playable so the hired help isn't limited to just guarding the baggage.

Would you be willing to share your tweak? I like getting the players involved in large battles.

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2021, 11:00:49 AM »
"You see 8 ogres standing looking bored in an empty field next to a pile of treasure."
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KingCheops

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2021, 12:11:22 PM »
And, I forgot to add, the amount paid before the journey starts isn't refundable so if the players can't purchase, say, a hundred days of travel and then get a refund if it only ends up being a 20 day trip.

Would you allow some of this to be saved as non-perishables?  Like you'd definitely not be able to save wages and preserved food eventually goes bad but does this include torches, pitons, tents, sleeping gear, etc that can be carried over to the next expedition?

This also makes treasure hordes more realistic for humanoids and bandits and the like as mundane provisions help restock.

Greentongue

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2021, 01:35:33 PM »
There is certainly something to be said about side quests to restock or recover stolen / "wandered off" goods.

While not everyone may be into running a caravan, it could be a source of a travelling "Home Base".

Mishihari

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2021, 02:25:04 PM »
I certainly don't see anything wrong with bringing a lot of people along on an expedition if that's what everyone wants to do, and managing the expedition can quickly become a mini-game.  I actually enjoy that.

That said, it can lead to very different play.  The focus is on the PCs less frequently, less time is spent on action and more on strategy, logistics, management, and planning.  The pace slows down.  Stealth and rapid movement become very difficult.  For these reasons I'd usually prefer a smaller group of characters and then pick the enemies accordingly.

jhkim

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2021, 03:32:17 PM »
I have to admit, I don't immediately have an idea for how to encourage players to buy into the logistical detail of expedition management as fun for its own sake if they're not already inclined to find such things entertaining, but maybe a minigame rules module might help?

This is a big challenge I've encountered int these kinds of games. One reason I've run them, is I have and have had players who find this kind of logistical stuff very entertaining. I've often come up with various systems for managing the logistics. I've found very few that don't get brushed to the side by such players (for example I've tried to abstract things like costs and hiring large groups, and most of these players want things concrete, not abstract: I pay 100 gold and get x).[/quote]

My post-apocalyptic game was a little different because the NPCs were being paid to stick with the PCs - they were there for survival. But I think the players generally reacted positively to having NPCs with positive attitudes towards them. After saving their lives once or twice, the NPCs were really grateful and helpful.

If the PCs are respected and looked up to, I think that makes a big difference in how the players regard the NPCs. In too many games, PCs don't get much respect from NPCs.

For bookkeeping - I maintained a columned sheet with the NPCs that were with the party at any time - it went into the middle of the table in a folder with other general info for them  - including player maps and abbreviated character sheets for the NPCs who had some class ability. We just would collectively update that sheet as things changed.

I feel like it's pretty easy to discourage this just by having a bit of trouble to have the NPCs around - between bookkeeping and expense and morale problems, the players could easily find it not worth the effort.


One thing that comes up a lot in these games is sending out groups of hirelings to do things (assassins, builders, diplomats, etc). What I found worked well here was assigning a score that translated into a dice pool (my game is based on dice pools) of 1d10 to 6d10 (and there is a lower rating for unranked characters where they roll 2d10 and take the single lowest result). So the players might have a right hand man who has a general rank of 4d10 for the things he is sent out to. Or they might have a hit squad with a rank of 3d10. Anytime they send those characters do do something, I will roll that pool against the target and determine the result that way. This generally has worked well.

That goes even more broadly than having hirelings do things. If you're dealing with the larger scale, it often necessitates more abstraction. In my Vinland campaign, there would sometimes be mass combats as part of raids with many dozens of combatants, and I'd handle those as just having each player make three skill rolls on their most relevant skill, and narrated it as events over time.

I'd consider using a more mechanical mass combat system - but only if it is really well worked out and interesting to play. Just tossing in some arbitrary mechanics is worse than hand-waving it, in my experience.

hedgehobbit

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2021, 06:37:28 PM »
Would you be willing to share your tweak? I like getting the players involved in large battles.

I'm starting off with a base of OD&D. Empire of the Petal Throne has a rule where if attacking a group of similar enemies, any damage beyond what is needed to kill one monster rolls over to another starting with the monster with the fewest hit points. So if a PC does 7 points of damage to group of three goblins with 2, 3, and 4 hit points, that PC will kill the first two goblins and do 2 points of damage to the goblin with 4 hit points.

In addition, I give higher level characters extra damage every four hit dice*. For example, a PC with a sword will do 1d8 damage at first level, 2d8 damage when he gets to 4 hit dice, 3d8 damage at 8 hit dice, etc. Critical hits double the number of dice roll. So a 8 hit die character rolling a crit will do 6d8 points of damage and capable of killing multiple gnolls or similar monters.

Because this applies at to starting PCs, you can introduce large numbers of very low level monsters into combat from the very first adventure. In additions, the part where you allocate damage to the character with the fewest hit points first means a party can have a Sergeant with several man-at-arms and the Sergeant will usually be the last person killed in a group. Therefore these NPCs will be more survivable even when engaged in multiple large fights. 

*As this is OD&D, characters gain hit dice at different rates based on their class. Thus a Cleric would need to be level 6 to have 4 hit dice and gain the bonus damage.

Greentongue

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2021, 07:37:22 PM »
The Empire of the Petal Throne setting encouraged large groups of people as each important person needs an entourage to support them, in the style they are accustomed. 
While this may not hold true for a new character, they will either be in the entourage, or soon develop the need for their own.
If they are not playing a "Murder-Hobo" style game.

Bedrockbrendan

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2021, 10:55:17 PM »


Just an FYI that first quote isn't mine, it is another poster's

Bedrockbrendan

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2021, 10:57:07 PM »



That goes even more broadly than having hirelings do things. If you're dealing with the larger scale, it often necessitates more abstraction. In my Vinland campaign, there would sometimes be mass combats as part of raids with many dozens of combatants, and I'd handle those as just having each player make three skill rolls on their most relevant skill, and narrated it as events over time.

I'd consider using a more mechanical mass combat system - but only if it is really well worked out and interesting to play. Just tossing in some arbitrary mechanics is worse than hand-waving it, in my experience.

I found this as well. For large combat I just expanded the system above and did a dice pool roll off between the sides based on who has the strongest position and most numbers. The losing side just loses a die or two on the next roll till they have to flee or get slaughtered.

Jaeger

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2021, 08:00:42 PM »
Dark Continent: Adventure in Darkest Africa RPG

Might be your Jam if expeditions are a thing.

A BPR derivative game. Rules for PC creation, outfitting an expedition - travel and resources.

Also mass combat for when your expedition comes across hostile natives, or you just don't feel like paying the Hongo to pass through their territory...

The mass combat is a bit clever as a better led smaller force can beat one with superior numbers if you plan well.

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Altheus

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2021, 05:26:41 AM »
Pendragon is really prone to having big expeditions for everything.

A knight will typically have a riding horse, a charger, a squire, a riding horse for the squire and a pack horse.

A party of 5 knights will therefore have 20 horses, there were many debates involving "Do we need the whole circus" and "Yes, I'm not cooking my own food!"

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2021, 06:16:04 AM »
This thread made me think of this video I saw today. Now, this guy could gear up by himself, but having a squire to help him makes it a lot easier, gives him a better fit and all that. And obviously at the end of the day his squire would clean off the mud and dust, or blood and guts, oil the leather, repair any minor tears and all that. And when the warrior was not wearing all their gear, the squire could carry it.

It's realistic and reasonable for an adventuring party to have many people like this, in addition of course to men-at-arms. Whether realism and reason are part of your campaign is another matter, of course, and whether any of this ought to be reflected in game mechanics something else still.

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SHARK

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Re: Fantasy adventures as large expeditions
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2021, 05:34:36 PM »
This thread made me think of this video I saw today. Now, this guy could gear up by himself, but having a squire to help him makes it a lot easier, gives him a better fit and all that. And obviously at the end of the day his squire would clean off the mud and dust, or blood and guts, oil the leather, repair any minor tears and all that. And when the warrior was not wearing all their gear, the squire could carry it.

It's realistic and reasonable for an adventuring party to have many people like this, in addition of course to men-at-arms. Whether realism and reason are part of your campaign is another matter, of course, and whether any of this ought to be reflected in game mechanics something else still.



Greetings!

Very cool video, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

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