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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 02:35:55 PM

Title: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 02:35:55 PM
https://youtu.be/ymUEPKTEQaQ

Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: mightybrain on April 04, 2021, 06:34:49 PM
3 to 1 downvotes from an audience that is already pretty far into woke territory.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Omega on April 04, 2021, 06:56:04 PM
After the "playing Nazis will make you a REAL Nazi!" piece they did and their ongoing woke agenda inserted into practically every vid since they ousted some of the original crew... this was inevitable.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2021, 07:39:31 PM
Woke BS

Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 09:17:50 PM
Blizzard Entertainment has a huge problem with this in their RTS games. They introduced groups like the Orcish Horde, Night Elf Sentinels, Zerg Swarm, and Protoss Empire as originally antagonistic to humanity and then warped them into unambiguous heroes who team up with humanity to fight space demons.

I hate that so much. I actually like playable conquistadors and alien monsters because they’re such a novelty. Taking that option away from me is childish and cruel. These are military scifi/fantasy RTS games! The whole point is for the playable sides to wage war against each other.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 04, 2021, 09:21:45 PM
Woke BS



Trying to bring 40K into the woke-o-sphere has been hilarious.
It's a parody setting full of literal facism and oppression in the human Imperium contrasted with all the other races and factions being as bad or probably worse in their own ways.

Using it as some kind of example of morality shows how tone deaf EC has become.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 04, 2021, 10:22:31 PM
Seems more like unfashionable game design.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 04, 2021, 11:14:35 PM
The real thing they are saying is:

"I think some ideas scare me so much I don't believe the public at large is to be trusted with the notion of entertaining them even as a fantastical theoretical".

That's really what this video and their Nazi one are really saying. They are just unwilling to be intellectually honest about that.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 04, 2021, 11:17:11 PM
Yes, that is exactly what they are secretly saying. I can hear the dog whistle and I obey.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Kyle Aaron on April 05, 2021, 01:04:38 AM
Why I would delve further into such arrant nonsense?

Players like butchering things horribly. We must give them a socially acceptable way to do so. This is why zombie movies are so popular - people feel uncomfortable watching someone gunning down human waves of Chinese communists, or Burmese militia (hi Rambo!) or the like, but nobody's worried about the feelings and culture of zombies... or orcs.

With an inherently evil or mindless race of monsters, we can butcher them horribly without guilt. They are thus a necessary element of game design. We don't game for moral subtlety, we're playing D&D, not doing Moral Philosophy 101.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: TJS on April 05, 2021, 01:27:46 AM
Ok.  Not going to comment on the content because that video's unwatchable.

Seriously how can anyone over the age of 5 sit through such patronisingly stupidly presented shit.

I assume that if their target audience is apparently so juvenile then they aren't going to have anything new to say that I need to hear.

I really don't understand the current fad for watching endless youtube videos made by people whose only qualification is their innate sense of their own importance.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 05, 2021, 01:46:57 AM
You're old, or old at heart, or both, I don't know. Cloud's over there for yelling at.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: ShieldWife on April 05, 2021, 03:34:57 AM
Ugh, that video was so arrogant and condescending, it makes me want to punch the creators in the face. They act like they’re interested in making games and/or settings more fun, but you can tell that they are really just being woke and implying that people who disagree with them are racists. In fact, they couldn’t help but throw in some Nazis and KKK in there is a demonstration of true absolute evil that you can kill without remorse.

Anyway, after watching that video, I hate to say it but I actually prefer not to have races/species/whatever  that are always evil. The reason why is because I prefer the moral complexity of more realistic scenarios where there are shades of gray on both sides of conflicts, where even villains have an aspect of humanity. Ironically, the kind of leftists who say that you can’t have orcs in a game because they represent blacks are the kind of people who see the world in black and white terms, with no nuance, where they are pure good and the evil racists (like Trump voters or 40K players) are pure evil.

Really though, it’s a subjective preference. Sometimes people want a game where they can contemplate and struggle with moral complexity, sometimes you just want some monsters that you can fight without having to think about that stuff. There is no real world significance to making orcs as morally complex as humans or making them all absolute evil personified.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Reckall on April 05, 2021, 04:34:32 AM
That's really what this video and their Nazi one are really saying. They are just unwilling to be intellectually honest about that.
The Nazi one was flatly stupid but this one... I'm not even sure of what they are saying. The assumption is stupid but I wasn't able to really follow the rest (and I watched it twice). For a video that wants to "impart wisdom", it is as confused as hell.  :P
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Reckall on April 05, 2021, 05:04:48 AM
3 to 1 downvotes from an audience that is already pretty far into woke territory.
The first time I checked the video the upvotes surpassed the downvotes by far. When I checked it again, a couple of days later, the upvotes had stopped and the downvotes were raining down with no sign of stopping. I guess that the first upvotes were from their built-in woke audience. Then word spreads around and the rest of the Internet gives its own opinion.

Luckily for them, shortly YouTube will hide the downvotes. Creators will still be able to see them, but for us unwashed masses only upvotes will be available. If this is a consequence of some big corporations like Disney being recently downvoted into oblivion after some very stupid announcements is everybody's guess. For sure YouTube never had any problems for the downvotes on my videos...  ::)

Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 05, 2021, 05:28:48 AM
Even in Tolkien, which is held up as the example of innately evil orcs, they fought orcs because the orcs were doing some shit. Abducting hobbits, attacking cities and travellers.
Likewise, it's not even a topic whether orcs are innately evil or not in my games, because these orcs are doing some shit.
I tend towards the idea that orcish culture is violent and nasty and they like it that way. But the occasional orc might break away and try to lead a more peaceful life. Maybe he'll even succeed! :D
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Reckall on April 05, 2021, 05:50:34 AM
I think I'll repost here what I already wrote, cleaned up a bit:

In our reality only human beings are intelligent and advanced. A fantasy world often has a lot more races and cultures - and this means that the "racism" problem is both compounded and, as a result, more complex. For starters.

Yes, true "racism" can very well exist in such a world - but as an encompassing concept involving all races. White men can be racist towards black men. Sun elves can be racist towards Wood Elves. And "Red Hand Tribe" Orcs can be racist towards all other "inferior" tribes. And then you can have "true interracial racism" between, for example, Elves and Dwarves.  You simply can't do a 1:1 comparison between Earth and a world of multiple sentient beings.

Orcs, BTW, are judged "Chaotic Evil" due to their behaviour relative to a human-centric concept of "neutrality", not as a racist label (and a simple check on The Monster Manual shows how they are defined "(Often) Chaotic Evil", not always. In The Forgotten Realms you can find Good aligned Orcs, followers of Eldath).

In Dungeons & Dragons Orcs developed they culture according to their natural characteristics: they are neither intelligent nor wise but they are very strong. Their natural desire of survival as a species depends, as with any other species, from using their strengths and avoiding their weaknesses. To our neutral-aligned human they look evil and chaotic - because they survive by expanding by force, and because "laws" require both wisdom and intelligence. In the Orc culture the strongest win - laws, respect and enduring social order be damned.

Once you grasp this, it becomes easy to see how Orcs can "choose" just fine what to do! Within their cultural upbring of course, they psychophysical nature and their understanding of how the World works. They can have heroes and cowards. They can debate about the best way to face a crisis. An Orc character (both player and non-player) can be interesting thanks to his personal pursuit to go "beyond" the established status quo of his tribe/race. All the things considered "missing" by EC are actually already present, clearly spelled in the MM.

How EC fumbled something so simple is beyond me.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Omega on April 05, 2021, 06:21:29 AM
All this also ignores that in D&D originally orcs could be Chaotic or Neutral and were not human looking at all.
Also that in Greyhawk I believe orcs were pretty much created by their god to raze civilization to the ground and kill or subjugate any non-orc. In other editions orcs and pretty much anything else was stated that alignment lists represented the ones the PCs were most likely to meet. There were exceptions. Pretty sure thats buried somewhere in the AD&D DMG or MM, but can not find it.

These things are always built on lies, cherry picking, and misrepresentations to suit the cults agenda.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Kyle Aaron on April 05, 2021, 07:28:48 AM
I actually prefer not to have races/species/whatever  that are always evil. The reason why is because I prefer the moral complexity of more realistic scenarios where there are shades of gray on both sides of conflicts, where even villains have an aspect of humanity.
That's what humans are for, since humans can be any alignment. But orcs, goblins etc are always some kind of evil alignment. Always.

And humans of course don't always announce their alignment, so you can get a rude surprise. And of course, lawful good does not mean lawful nice.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Reckall on April 05, 2021, 07:53:12 AM
I actually prefer not to have races/species/whatever  that are always evil. The reason why is because I prefer the moral complexity of more realistic scenarios where there are shades of gray on both sides of conflicts, where even villains have an aspect of humanity.
That's what humans are for, since humans can be any alignment. But orcs, goblins etc are always some kind of evil alignment. Always.

And humans of course don't always announce their alignment, so you can get a rude surprise. And of course, lawful good does not mean lawful nice.
Ultima V already showed what happens when "Virtues" are taken to strange extremes...
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Steven Mitchell on April 05, 2021, 08:17:01 AM
I don't need to watch the video to know that the real bad game design is woke and ivory tower.  Combined, they are a game-killing mix.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: jhkim on April 05, 2021, 04:01:56 PM
Players like butchering things horribly. We must give them a socially acceptable way to do so. This is why zombie movies are so popular - people feel uncomfortable watching someone gunning down human waves of Chinese communists, or Burmese militia (hi Rambo!) or the like, but nobody's worried about the feelings and culture of zombies... or orcs.

With an inherently evil or mindless race of monsters, we can butcher them horribly without guilt. They are thus a necessary element of game design. We don't game for moral subtlety, we're playing D&D, not doing Moral Philosophy 101.

I generally agree with Kyle here, which is what I've expressed in my own circles. Though a slight correction - there are people that worry about the feelings and culture of orcs. Mainstream games like World of Warcraft have them as player characters with interested communities, and mainstream films like Bright (2017) portray orcs as sometimes-positive characters. But even if someone accepts the specific case of orcs - the video is arguing that there should be no inherently evil monsters at all - even vampires and so forth.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on April 05, 2021, 05:38:36 PM
Players like butchering things horribly. We must give them a socially acceptable way to do so. This is why zombie movies are so popular - people feel uncomfortable watching someone gunning down human waves of Chinese communists, or Burmese militia (hi Rambo!) or the like, but nobody's worried about the feelings and culture of zombies... or orcs.

With an inherently evil or mindless race of monsters, we can butcher them horribly without guilt. They are thus a necessary element of game design. We don't game for moral subtlety, we're playing D&D, not doing Moral Philosophy 101.

I generally agree with Kyle here, which is what I've expressed in my own circles. Though a slight correction - there are people that worry about the feelings and culture of orcs. Mainstream games like World of Warcraft have them as player characters with interested communities, and mainstream films like Bright (2017) portray orcs as sometimes-positive characters. But even if someone accepts the specific case of orcs - the video is arguing that there should be no inherently evil monsters at all - even vampires and so forth.

I don't think anyone is against having nuance in specific fantasy races - even if they lean towards being raiders etc. (No one but strawmen.) But there's also nothing wrong with having races/species/whatever which are inherently evil for in-setting reasons. Even if those races/species/whatever have more nuance in a different setting.

Just because Robin Williams's Genie was a good guy doesn't mean that someone can't have a setting where all djinn and other such otherworldly creatures hate all mortals and only grant monkey's paw style wishes, taking pleasure in mortal pain etc.

In the same way, just because some settings have orcs as okay guys doesn't mean that 40k is wrong & racist to have orks be fungus boyz who are all violence all the time.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: thedungeondelver on April 05, 2021, 06:37:20 PM
Why I would delve further into such arrant nonsense?

Players like butchering things horribly. We must give them a socially acceptable way to do so. This is why zombie movies are so popular - people feel uncomfortable watching someone gunning down human waves of Chinese communists, or Burmese militia (hi Rambo!) or the like, but nobody's worried about the feelings and culture of zombies... or orcs.

With an inherently evil or mindless race of monsters, we can butcher them horribly without guilt. They are thus a necessary element of game design. We don't game for moral subtlety, we're playing D&D, not doing Moral Philosophy 101.

Thought: Prof. Dubois from Starship Troopers would either be the best or worst person to play D&D with. 
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: thedungeondelver on April 05, 2021, 06:40:07 PM
I actually prefer not to have races/species/whatever  that are always evil. The reason why is because I prefer the moral complexity of more realistic scenarios where there are shades of gray on both sides of conflicts, where even villains have an aspect of humanity.
That's what humans are for, since humans can be any alignment. But orcs, goblins etc are always some kind of evil alignment. Always.

And humans of course don't always announce their alignment, so you can get a rude surprise. And of course, lawful good does not mean lawful nice.

Well, any player character can be of any alignment.  It's fully possible to have a lawful good half-orc fighter-cleric as dedicated to Heironeous as the human Paladin next to him, or a chaotic evil high elf as depraved and foul as the Drow living a dozen or so miles beneath his feet. 

Fortunately, monsters are organized on easy to understand lines of "Kill," "Negotiate carefully with," and "Don't Kill" courtesy of the alignment system.  Somehow the pinhead who created the video thinks that's bad game design.  He's probably the type whose father deliberately lost every chess game he played against him or something.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Renegade_Productions on April 05, 2021, 06:53:37 PM
https://youtu.be/ymUEPKTEQaQ



Can't say I'm surprised they're still around, and still this stupid. As soon as they thumbed their noses at GamerGate was the moment you knew they were just another leftist cog in the machine.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 05, 2021, 07:03:23 PM
But even if someone accepts the specific case of orcs - the video is arguing that there should be no inherently evil monsters at all - even vampires and so forth.
Yeah, the part where the vlogger said we should rewrite The Thing as a nice guy was pretty much the crowning moment of crazy.

Human beings from the same culture think members of a different political party or skin color are evil incarnate, much less agree on the finer details of morality. It staggers belief that an alien species with a completely different evolutionary history would hold a morality compatible with Extra Credits, much less any human civilization.

That's pretty much the entire conflict of the web novella Three Worlds Collide. http://robinhanson.typepad.com/files/three-worlds-collide.pdf
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: ShieldWife on April 05, 2021, 08:03:34 PM
That's what humans are for, since humans can be any alignment. But orcs, goblins etc are always some kind of evil alignment. Always.

And humans of course don't always announce their alignment, so you can get a rude surprise. And of course, lawful good does not mean lawful nice.

Well sure, and I actually usually play in campaigns that are entirely human or at least human based settings. Most of the fantasy rpgs I play don’t have the traditional elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, etc. I’m not opposed to the idea, but I find that humans often have more depth as PCs, NPCs, and as cultures too.

Though in most settings, including D&D variations, orcs and goblins don’t have to be evil. I think that for settings with these sorts of creatures, it can be fun to change them up a bit, keep players on their toes. We could have orcs be morally the same as humans, while the next setting might have orcs as little more than demons in the flesh that are always evil. Similarly, one setting could have orcs as really dumb, while another setting could have orcs with human-like intelligence. I think that changing them up allows the the players to experience some of the same sense of mystery or even fear that their players would regarding a foreign race of creatures that they may not fully understand.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 05, 2021, 08:24:55 PM


Extra Credits makes the claim that it’s totally okay to just kill anyone you happen across wearing a Nazi or KKK uniform. That’s actually pretty disturbing when you think about it.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: TJS on April 05, 2021, 09:00:29 PM
You're old, or old at heart, or both, I don't know. Cloud's over there for yelling at.
So you don't feel that video is baby talking at you?

I mean if I'm 2 minutes into a video and it hasn't said anything that isn't fucking obvious why would you watch and further?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Mishihari on April 05, 2021, 09:05:29 PM
Quote
Thought: Prof. Dubois from Starship Troopers would either be the best or worst person to play D&D with. 

I'd say probably best.  He would certainly be a team player.  I just read this book again, this time with my 13 year old son, and rather than losing relevance over the years like most books, it's becoming more and more relevant. 
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Jaeger on April 05, 2021, 10:48:17 PM

Extra Credits makes the claim that it’s totally okay to just kill anyone you happen across wearing a Nazi or KKK uniform. That’s actually pretty disturbing when you think about it.

Orcs can be redeemed.

Nazi's and KKK members are evil forever.

Because whiteness.

This is known.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on April 05, 2021, 10:50:05 PM
Nazi's and KKK members are evil forever.

Especially since it wasn't as if Germany had a draft or anything...
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: SHARK on April 05, 2021, 11:54:16 PM

Extra Credits makes the claim that it’s totally okay to just kill anyone you happen across wearing a Nazi or KKK uniform. That’s actually pretty disturbing when you think about it.

Orcs can be redeemed.

Nazi's and KKK members are evil forever.

Because whiteness.

This is known.

Greetings!

Hey there Jaeger! Your commentary reminded me of an associate I knew, many years ago. This man was a retired veteran, having served in the US Army for 25 years. He attended numerous game conventions, being involved in board games such as ASL and Rise and Decline of the Third Reich, and especially World War II miniatures wargaming. He had it all. Terrain, realistic French villages, American and German forces arrayed against each other during the Normandy Campaign, and beyond. He had giant magnifying glasses so you could see better the different soldiers, artillery, and armoured forces spread out on this huge table, turned into a life-like tactical battlefield.

He routinely wore the uniform of a German Wehrmacht Officer, with an Iron Cross at his throat, and usually a black eye-patch that gave him an unmistakable aura of being a Nazi villain. Of course, he was also highly educated, and a walking encyclopedia of knowledge and expertise on history and World War II--down to incredible levels of detail. He hosted these world War II miniatures wargames at every convention, with people coming from all over the country, to play in HIS wargame.

He was also a black American. ;D

It was fantastic fun playing games with him, he was an excellent gamer, and also an outstanding host when you joined him at his huge wargame table. A great American, too.

I sometimes wonder how he would be received nowadays at a game convention. ;D ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: ShieldWife on April 06, 2021, 12:22:55 AM
Yeah, like I said about the mention of people in Nazi uniforms or KKK robes: these are people who see the world in an extremely black and white way. Those evil white racists are evil personified, inhuman as much as demons are, who can be killed without hesitation or remorse. Unlike orcs, who are people and shouldn’t be portrayed negatively in role playing games.

If an RPG is to touch on real world morality in any meaningful way, it should be as a reminder that morality is complex and nuanced. Of course, if you find yourself in a war, you’re not an evil person for shooting the enemy in front of you, but one of the greatest horrors of war is that all too often the typical fighter is a teenage boy who just thinks he is protecting his people and he’s forced to kill another teenage boy doing the same.

We might have a battlefield situation with a Nazi soldier on one side and a Soviet soldier on another, both are just 16 years old, both serving regimes that killed and oppressed millions, both basically good kids who really want to do what is right, serve their respective countries, and save the world from communism/fascism/capitalism. One will kill the other and it’s tragically a part of every war.

If we’re not just mowing down mooks to relieve stress, if role playing violence is to have real world significance, then it should remind us that our enemies aren’t monsters and that we aren’t saints. That, however isn’t how these sorts of people want to see morality, because they know that the villains of their narrative are monsters that should be destroyed by any means necessary.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: thedungeondelver on April 06, 2021, 02:29:02 AM
Quote
Thought: Prof. Dubois from Starship Troopers would either be the best or worst person to play D&D with. 

I'd say probably best.  He would certainly be a team player.  I just read this book again, this time with my 13 year old son, and rather than losing relevance over the years like most books, it's becoming more and more relevant.

I feel every day more and more like we're drifting towards the Crazy Years described by Heinlein in the early chapters of the book.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Reckall on April 06, 2021, 04:53:38 AM
Yeah, like I said about the mention of people in Nazi uniforms or KKK robes: these are people who see the world in an extremely black and white way.
It is not by chance that this is the whole fundament of the "Cancel Culture" movement.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 06, 2021, 08:21:23 AM
Greetings!

Hey there Jaeger! Your commentary reminded me of an associate I knew, many years ago. This man was a retired veteran, having served in the US Army for 25 years. He attended numerous game conventions, being involved in board games such as ASL and Rise and Decline of the Third Reich, and especially World War II miniatures wargaming. He had it all. Terrain, realistic French villages, American and German forces arrayed against each other during the Normandy Campaign, and beyond. He had giant magnifying glasses so you could see better the different soldiers, artillery, and armoured forces spread out on this huge table, turned into a life-like tactical battlefield.

He routinely wore the uniform of a German Wehrmacht Officer, with an Iron Cross at his throat, and usually a black eye-patch that gave him an unmistakable aura of being a Nazi villain. Of course, he was also highly educated, and a walking encyclopedia of knowledge and expertise on history and World War II--down to incredible levels of detail. He hosted these world War II miniatures wargames at every convention, with people coming from all over the country, to play in HIS wargame.

He was also a black American. ;D

It was fantastic fun playing games with him, he was an excellent gamer, and also an outstanding host when you joined him at his huge wargame table. A great American, too.

I sometimes wonder how he would be received nowadays at a game convention. ;D ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
I would have paid hard cash to get a picture of that. Holy shit, the dissonance. :D

The Wehrmacht in general did not share the same malus that the SS divisions did (there were multiple reports of Allied forces, especially American ones, straight up refusing to let SS troops surrender). Surrendering Wehrmacht troops could expect to be treated roughly but fairly if they behaved.

It didn't hurt that the Feldgendarmie were hanging anyone who they suspected of harboring wishes to surrender.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Steven Mitchell on April 06, 2021, 09:04:05 AM
Yeah, like I said about the mention of people in Nazi uniforms or KKK robes: these are people who see the world in an extremely black and white way. Those evil white racists are evil personified, inhuman as much as demons are, who can be killed without hesitation or remorse. Unlike orcs, who are people and shouldn’t be portrayed negatively in role playing games.

If an RPG is to touch on real world morality in any meaningful way, it should be as a reminder that morality is complex and nuanced. Of course, if you find yourself in a war, you’re not an evil person for shooting the enemy in front of you, but one of the greatest horrors of war is that all too often the typical fighter is a teenage boy who just thinks he is protecting his people and he’s forced to kill another teenage boy doing the same.

We might have a battlefield situation with a Nazi soldier on one side and a Soviet soldier on another, both are just 16 years old, both serving regimes that killed and oppressed millions, both basically good kids who really want to do what is right, serve their respective countries, and save the world from communism/fascism/capitalism. One will kill the other and it’s tragically a part of every war.

If we’re not just mowing down mooks to relieve stress, if role playing violence is to have real world significance, then it should remind us that our enemies aren’t monsters and that we aren’t saints. That, however isn’t how these sorts of people want to see morality, because they know that the villains of their narrative are monsters that should be destroyed by any means necessary.

I think the point is that those kind of decisions are largely setting concerns, not game system design.  Which I'm sure you know, just clarifying for discussion.  The possibility of having an "evil race" is not absolutely necessary but is so useful that for many games for the system to expressly excluded it is limiting the kind of setting and audience it will appeal to.  And of course, there are various degrees of 'evil race", too:  Demonic, no exceptions; "Members so biologically twisted that the chances of not being evil are too remote to worry about" (in a game design); "A culture marker for this is the way they are absent some good reason why not"; and so on from there.

In my campaign settings, I vary this quite a bit.  It's always part of the discussion with the players.  Sometimes they want more nuance.  Sometimes they want something they can just kill as part of a heroic adventure (while rescuing others, saving the day, etc.).  I make it a point to not just slide the dial universally one way or the other, too. 

As an example, in my last few campaigns, "kobolds" have been more neutral and true to their fuzzy mythological roots as I see them.  (Whether I've gotten that right or not is almost beside the point.)  They are an isolated people with strange habits and sometimes shunned, but not inherently hostile to civilized people.  Whereas to compensate, I've made goblins worse than normal, still using tools but almost feral in their attitudes.  They are the scorpions in the scorpion/frog fable, where stabbing you in the back is inherent in their very nature--even when it goes against their own interests.  The players start with only needing to know, "In this campaign, kobolds are isolated and sometimes shunned but people say you can deal.  Goblins want to torture, kill, and probably eat you."  The nuance comes later.

I've done this long enough now with the same players that sometimes I can even build on it to put in some misinformation in the basics.  Though it is not bait and switch.  As in, "As players, you may learn otherwise later, but here is what your characters think they know about other races."  Then I'm careful not to change too much or do a complete reversal.  The players know when I do that, most of what is in the information is mostly correct, and part of the fun of the campaign is learning the bits that aren't.

"No evil races" in the game design isn't nuance or sophistication or complexity.  It's dumb design to avoid facing setting issues.  It's also from the same people that in other contexts will say that "everything is shades of gray"--forgetting that "gray" implies the existence of black and white.  As soon as we talk about "gray", then that prompts the question, "Well, OK then, which parts are the white and which parts are black?"  Nuance is taking the different parts so that the GM understands exactly what shade of gray is present in this creature or culture or race in this setting at this moment.   

Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 06, 2021, 10:34:30 AM
Quote
Thought: Prof. Dubois from Starship Troopers would either be the best or worst person to play D&D with. 

I'd say probably best.  He would certainly be a team player.  I just read this book again, this time with my 13 year old son, and rather than losing relevance over the years like most books, it's becoming more and more relevant.

I've been watching the Roughnecks DVDs and enjoying them. There's even a roleplaying game published by Mongoose that you can buy on Drivethrurpg.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 06, 2021, 11:10:34 AM
I sure as fuck wouldn't try running any game with a serious ethical bent around DuBois. He'd probably tie me in knots psychologically and leave me wondering what the hell I was doing :)

No, it'd be lighthearted D&D goofiness all the way to take the edge off.

On a sidenote, while the Starship Troopers movies serve best as drink coasters, the Roughnecks animated series was quite good.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 06, 2021, 12:02:50 PM
On a sidenote, while the Starship Troopers movies serve best as drink coasters, the Roughnecks animated series was quite good.
It has the highest rating on IMDB in the franchise. Unfortunately, it’s extremely difficult to get a hold of. It’s not on any streaming service and the DVDs are OOP. The boxed set doesn’t include subtitles like individual releases did so if you’re hearing impaired like I am then it’s really difficult to hear what characters are saying unless you wear headphones (which are really inconvenient to setup on a TV).

The violence is bloodless and there isn’t any sexuality, so you can even watch it with your family. It’s the closest in spirit to the novel of all adaptations, but it focuses more on character building and tactics with barely any philosophy. The show was cancelled before all the planned episodes were produced, so the series ends on a cliffhanger.

The bugs gets a ton of new castes compared to the novel, making them unpredictable. At one point they’re explained as able to consume the genomes of other species to create new castes, like the tyranids or zerg they originally inspired. This keeps them unpredictable and plays into the monster of the week formula the show often uses.

It’s fun and wish it got a sequel or something.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2021, 12:18:43 PM
On a sidenote, while the Starship Troopers movies serve best as drink coasters, the Roughnecks animated series was quite good.
It has the highest rating on IMDB in the franchise. Unfortunately, it’s extremely difficult to get a hold of. It’s not on any streaming service and the DVDs are OOP. The boxed set doesn’t include subtitles like individual releases did so if you’re hearing impaired like I am then it’s really difficult to hear what characters are saying unless you wear headphones (which are really inconvenient to setup on a TV).

The violence is bloodless and there isn’t any sexuality, so you can even watch it with your family. It’s the closest in spirit to the novel of all adaptations, but it focuses more on character building and tactics with barely any philosophy. The show was cancelled before all the planned episodes were produced, so the series ends on a cliffhanger.

The bugs gets a ton of new castes compared to the novel, making them unpredictable. At one point they’re explained as able to consume the genomes of other species to create new castes, like the tyranids or zerg they originally inspired. This keeps them unpredictable and plays into the monster of the week formula the show often uses.

It’s fun and wish it got a sequel or something.

You'd need to watch in on a PC (or use it as the player) and have a player that allows external subtitles but here:

https://english-subtitles.net/20332-roughnecks-the-starship-troopers-chronicles.html (https://english-subtitles.net/20332-roughnecks-the-starship-troopers-chronicles.html)
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 12:29:23 PM
So we all agree that Good races are good game design, right.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Omega on April 06, 2021, 01:05:25 PM

I generally agree with Kyle here, which is what I've expressed in my own circles. Though a slight correction - there are people that worry about the feelings and culture of orcs. Mainstream games like World of Warcraft have them as player characters with interested communities, and mainstream films like Bright (2017) portray orcs as sometimes-positive characters. But even if someone accepts the specific case of orcs - the video is arguing that there should be no inherently evil monsters at all - even vampires and so forth.

As noted before. Non-Evil examples of probably every known monster out there has probably popped up in some TSR product.
Ones I can think of...
Non-evil Gnolls, Harpies, Orcs, Kobolds, At least two freaking good Mindflayer, demons, devils, arcanaloths, drow, Yuan-ti, nightmares, hellhounds, Nagpa, wererats, vampires, various undead from skeletons to spectres to mummies, and many more. Even one where Tiamat is not evil.
They also flipped this around and there have been evil silver and gold dragons, unicorns, pegasus, devas, pixies, faeries, and more. Especially if you add in WOTC depictions as they seem to love dropping in evil versions of normally good creatures.

The difference is TSR allowed these to co-exist and a DM could use or not as they pleased. WOkeTC on the other hand clubs you over the head like a baby seal with the agenda club.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 06, 2021, 01:10:27 PM

I generally agree with Kyle here, which is what I've expressed in my own circles. Though a slight correction - there are people that worry about the feelings and culture of orcs. Mainstream games like World of Warcraft have them as player characters with interested communities, and mainstream films like Bright (2017) portray orcs as sometimes-positive characters. But even if someone accepts the specific case of orcs - the video is arguing that there should be no inherently evil monsters at all - even vampires and so forth.

As noted before. Non-Evil examples of probably every known monster out there has probably popped up in some TSR product.
Ones I can think of...
Non-evil Gnolls, Harpies, Orcs, Kobolds, At least two freaking good Mindflayer,

How does that even work? Do they only eat the brains of Bad People?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 01:12:02 PM
How does that even work? Do they only eat the brains of Bad People?

Like those are hard to find if you can cast the right spells.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 06, 2021, 01:33:56 PM
How does that even work? Do they only eat the brains of Bad People?

Like those are hard to find if you can cast the right spells.

Or bribe the right judge.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 01:36:04 PM
How does that even work? Do they only eat the brains of Bad People?

Like those are hard to find if you can cast the right spells.

Or bribe the right judge.

There is adventure potential in this if players are interested in setting up an ethical brain consumption alternative for reformed mindfloggers. Opportunities and profit abound.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: ScytheSong on April 06, 2021, 01:50:22 PM
How does that even work? Do they only eat the brains of Bad People?

Like those are hard to find if you can cast the right spells.

Or bribe the right judge.

There is adventure potential in this if players are interested in setting up an ethical brain consumption alternative for reformed mindfloggers. Opportunities and profit abound.

Or a really, really creepy criminal justice system. Mindflayer cops who scan suspects to determine their guilt, Cleric judges who Detect Alignment keep the mindflayer cops from becoming evil, and criminals are executed by having their brains eaten. Bonus points if the system is as execution-happy as, say, 18th century England.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 01:54:12 PM
How does that even work? Do they only eat the brains of Bad People?

Like those are hard to find if you can cast the right spells.

Or bribe the right judge.

There is adventure potential in this if players are interested in setting up an ethical brain consumption alternative for reformed mindfloggers. Opportunities and profit abound.

Or a really, really creepy criminal justice system. Mindflayer cops who scan suspects to determine their guilt, Cleric judges who Detect Alignment keep the mindflayer cops from becoming evil, and criminals are executed by having their brains eaten. Bonus points if the system is as execution-happy as, say, 18th century England.

Misdemeanors are only partially eaten. They lose their ability to spell words and sometimes stare vacantly into space.

Does it matter if the mindflayer eats a comatose brain?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 06, 2021, 02:11:03 PM
If you want an example of why good races are bad game design, then look no further than the shitty RTS game plots written by Activision Blizzard. They keep repeating the same tired stupid plot where the orcs and humans or space elves and space bugs become best friends and team up to fight the “real” villain (who is still depicted as inherently evil btw).

It’s so fucking stupid and turns perfectly serviceable civilizations and settings into utter crap. This is why I hate Activision Blizzard. They ran their RTS IPs into the ground by forcing every playable side into a generic good guy role.

To add insult to injury, these are the most profitable and popular games in the RTS genre. The genre is so niche that they don’t have any competition with better writing. It fucking sucks.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 02:13:25 PM
If you want an example of why good races are bad game design, then look no further than the shitty RTS game plots written by Activision Blizzard. They keep repeating the same tired stupid plot where the orcs and humans or space elves and space bugs become best friends and team up to fight the “real” villain (who is still depicted as inherently evil btw).

It’s so fucking stupid and turns perfectly serviceable civilizations and settings into utter crap. This is why I hate Activision Blizzard. They ran their RTS IPs into the ground by forcing every playable side into a generic good guy role.

To add insult to injury, these are the most profitable and popular games in the RTS genre. The genre is so niche that they don’t have any competition with better writing. It fucking sucks.

That would also be a tired option if both sides were total pieces of shit who had to band together for self preservation against an even bigger piece of shit. That's just Marvel Team-Up bullshit. Morality has naught to do with it.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on April 06, 2021, 02:32:08 PM
How does that even work? Do they only eat the brains of Bad People?

I know that there's fluff that mindflayers prefer smart people, but do they have to eat sentient brains? Couldn't they just eat livestock brains to survive?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 02:35:38 PM
How does that even work? Do they only eat the brains of Bad People?

I know that there's fluff that mindflayers prefer smart people, but do they have to eat sentient brains? Couldn't they just eat livestock brains to survive?

Yeah when we get into this level of detail mindflayers are just vampires but with brains instead of blood and tentacle faces. Perhaps this ruins mindflayers for some, but now I like them more.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Valatar on April 06, 2021, 02:48:36 PM
Spelljammer, the ship itself and not just the setting, has Illithid on board who fed in large part by being the designated executioners and euthanasia.  Someone's dying, they call the Illithid, who roll in and psionic the patient's pain away, then get to nibble the brain once the person's kicked the bucket.  Of course, Illithid being Illithid there were also some evil shenanigans going on on the side, but it does demonstrate the possibility of working out arrangements by which brain-eating creatures are able to feed without being evil predators.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 02:50:10 PM
Now this is the kind of content we can work with - Evil Races are good game design because how else do we get to work out the particulars of reforming them?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Valatar on April 06, 2021, 02:57:02 PM
The thing is, like most subjects these people are bumbling into, we've already dealt with it.  Like, no shit there can be good orcs.  Drizzt's been a thing since, what, the 80s?  RPGs and D&D in particular have always been open to examining both evil creatures with deeper motivations than "Hulk smash" and in outliers from predominately evil societies who turn towards neutrality or good.  Planescape, Spelljammer, and Dark Sun in particular tended to turn the alignment system on its head, being chock full of weird antiheroes from the evil side and holier-than-thou assholes from the good side.  Whatever weird straw man "gamers" these people have in mind when they do videos like this bear no relationship to reality.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 02:57:56 PM
The new players who don't know you and don't care to learn the rich cultural history of gamers quibbling about the ethics of fictional people.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 06, 2021, 03:05:37 PM
That would also be a tired option if both sides were total pieces of shit who had to band together for self preservation against an even bigger piece of shit. That's just Marvel Team-Up bullshit. Morality has naught to do with it.
Sure. That was also the case in Starcraft at one point: the space cowboy teamed up with the genocidal space elf who incinerated his home planet. Also, the space cowboy tricked the genocidal space elf into incinerating another planet. Total pieces of shit is putting it mildly.

Now this is the kind of content we can work with - Evil Races are good game design because how else do we get to work out the particulars of reforming them?
Evil (or morally ambiguous, eldritch, whatever) races are good game design because they provide a ready reason for violent conflict, which is the standard gameplay for the overwhelming majority of roleplaying and video games.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 03:08:11 PM
Look at this coward needing a reason for violent conflict that isn't self-evident.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 06, 2021, 03:10:40 PM
Look at this coward needing a reason for violent conflict that isn't self-evident.
Excuse me?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 03:11:53 PM
If you need a reason to justify violent conflict to yourself by making a race evil or whatever, you have a lack of appreciation for violent conflict.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 06, 2021, 03:17:08 PM
How does that even work? Do they only eat the brains of Bad People?

I know that there's fluff that mindflayers prefer smart people, but do they have to eat sentient brains? Couldn't they just eat livestock brains to survive?
Depends on what fluff you're using. Lords of Madness specifies that the brains of sentient creatures with actual experiences are tastier and more nutritious to illithids than, say, brain-fried slaves or animals.

That doesn't even cover ceremorphosis, where the illithids insert a tadpole into a victim's head (via the mouth, nose, or ear canal). The tadpole crawls up into the person's brain and begins chowing down, destroying the victim's mind. Then the tadpole begins transforming the victim's body over the course of a week until presto, new illithid!

Illithids always use sentient creatures for ceremorphosis. Humans, elves (including drow), both flavors of gith (that must really piss the githyanki and githzerai off), grimlocks, gnolls, medium-sized goblinoids, and orcs are all ceremorphosis candidates. Other races are typically eaten or enslaved. The exception, of course, is the urophion, which is the illithid version of 'I got drunk last night and did what?' because it's the result of implanting a tadpole into a roper.

So yeah, illithids are bad news.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 03:21:39 PM
Yeah this is sounding more and more like tentacle vampires, especially re: brains/blood of people being more satisfying than animal brains/blood and the process of generating new illithids. Never read Lords of Madness, always wondered how they made more of them.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 06, 2021, 03:34:46 PM
Pretty much. The illithid feeding requirements from Lords of Madness specify one fresh brain a month minimum, ideally one fresh brain a week. How illithids  sustain any population is beyond me, particularly as they live underground and hidden. They'd make more sense as solitary predators.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 03:59:34 PM
Yeah I could see making a small reform group out of this bunch, get an appropriately empathetic group to try and campaign to restructure some kingdom for Illithid Integration. Makings of a good black comedy scenario there. I'll just file that away for later.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: ScytheSong on April 06, 2021, 04:05:45 PM
Considering Mindflayers/Illithid were introduced as part of the Cthulhu mythos stuff back in the day, it should surprise no one that they are deeply unsettling and inimical to the rest of the D&D races.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 06, 2021, 04:08:21 PM
If you need a reason to justify violent conflict to yourself by making a race evil or whatever, you have a lack of appreciation for violent conflict.
I enjoyed playing the Command & Conquer games. Those didn’t have evil races.

Considering Mindflayers/Illithid were introduced as part of the Cthulhu mythos stuff back in the day, it should surprise no one that they are deeply unsettling and inimical to the rest of the D&D races.
I’m quite partial to the Phrenic Scourges. They’re open game content.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 04:10:31 PM
If you need a reason to justify violent conflict to yourself by making a race evil or whatever, you have a lack of appreciation for violent conflict.
I enjoyed playing the Command & Conquer games. Those didn’t have evil races.

Very good, carry on then! I'm not familiar with these Phrenic Scourges, what's the summary?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: ScytheSong on April 06, 2021, 05:21:02 PM


Very good, carry on then! I'm not familiar with these Phrenic Scourges, what's the summary?

Considering both Mindflayer and Illithid were trademarked by TSR, and WotC has maintained that trademark, I think they were being cautiously euphemistic (Phrenic meaning "of or related to the skull").
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 06, 2021, 05:24:54 PM
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/phrenic-scourge/

Dreamscarred Press used them when they couldn’t use mindflayers.

The same book with them also had substitutes for yuan-ti, umber hulks, beholders, etc.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 06, 2021, 08:14:14 PM
I took a look at the phrenic scourges. Interesting design and they fit the 'horrid tentacle monster' mold better, with less idiocy in regards to their diet.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Omega on April 09, 2021, 05:57:37 AM
How does that even work? Do they only eat the brains of Bad People?

I know that there's fluff that mindflayers prefer smart people, but do they have to eat sentient brains? Couldn't they just eat livestock brains to survive?

One of the two was shown keeping a kobold around as food while with the group.
The other one saw? No clue. I guess it ate evil brains or subsisted on animals? Dont recall if was ever said. Been 2+ decades.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Omega on April 09, 2021, 06:02:31 AM
Pretty much. The illithid feeding requirements from Lords of Madness specify one fresh brain a month minimum, ideally one fresh brain a week. How illithids  sustain any population is beyond me, particularly as they live underground and hidden. They'd make more sense as solitary predators.

2e's Illithiad goes into alot of detail about how the mind flayers pull all this off. They've had a lot of time to get very good at this too.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: HappyDaze on April 09, 2021, 06:13:20 AM
Pretty much. The illithid feeding requirements from Lords of Madness specify one fresh brain a month minimum, ideally one fresh brain a week. How illithids  sustain any population is beyond me, particularly as they live underground and hidden. They'd make more sense as solitary predators.

2e's Illithiad goes into alot of detail about how the mind flayers pull all this off. They've had a lot of time to get very good at this too.
That was a fun book. Don't see too many products like that now, at least not from WotC.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Pat on April 09, 2021, 10:34:20 AM
Pretty much. The illithid feeding requirements from Lords of Madness specify one fresh brain a month minimum, ideally one fresh brain a week. How illithids  sustain any population is beyond me, particularly as they live underground and hidden. They'd make more sense as solitary predators.

2e's Illithiad goes into alot of detail about how the mind flayers pull all this off. They've had a lot of time to get very good at this too.
The Illithiad is a lot of fun, but doesn't do a great job explaining the brain economy.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 09, 2021, 11:57:31 AM
Hence why I prefer phrenic scourges. They’re open game content, they’re literally faceless tentacle monsters, and they don’t have any absurd dietary restrictions. Plus, Dreamscarred Press wrote a few more books about them, including things like aquatic variants and doppelganger hybrids. Out of all the obscure mind flayer substitutes that have been published during the d20 boom, they’re easily the most detailed.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: agkistro13 on April 10, 2021, 11:57:01 AM
How is it that SJWs can't understand the concept of an evil race when they think whiteness is inherently evil?

How is it that they can't understand the concept of an evil culture when they think everybody born before 1995 is evil?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 10, 2021, 12:22:17 PM
Obviously they're a different breed than right thinking chads like you and I so it's okay to just fuck em up for this
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: VisionStorm on April 10, 2021, 12:58:53 PM
How is it that SJWs can't understand the concept of an evil race when they think whiteness is inherently evil?

How is it that they can't understand the concept of an evil culture when they think everybody born before 1995 is evil?

Based on the critical theorist conception of the world, society is entirely made up of two classes of people: the Oppressors and the Oppressed. And language is inherently a tool used by the dominant group to subjugate the oppressed minorities. So the automatic assumption is that in any work of fiction that features an “evil” race, that race is meant to represent various marginalized groups in society, presenting them as vile in order to justify their subjugation or destruction. The thought that these fictional races could represent white people (or NO race, for that matter, since they FICTIONAL races that aren't human or even real) doesn't enter their mind. These works are the product of the dominant group in society, and often reflect that group's cultural traditions (such as European myth and folklore) therefore they're being used to influence people's thinking through language to uphold the dominant group and suppress the rest. Period.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2021, 04:16:34 PM
So I’m going to tackle the original argument from a philosophical and engineering perspective.

From a philosophical perspective: how do you even define evil in the first place? Even among humans, arguments about morality and ethics have been going on for thousands of years. Assuming you can even define evil, How do you know that an evil race is actually evil? Maybe they’re actually good guys, and you’re the evil one. Maybe they’re so alien that they can’t be meaningfully described thru human morality. Maybe they’re not inherently evil, and you’re a racist who ignores information that doesn’t confirm your bias.

If a species is biologically driven to eat their offspring and considers that synonymous with good (as in their word for “good” literally translates to “eats babies”) due to an evolutionary quirk, then what gives you the right to force them onto reservations where they’ll hate themselves for being unable to follow their instinctive conscience? You evil imperialist!

From an engineering perspective: unless you’re making a CRPG where moral choices are important or a psychological horror game or whatever, then it’s irrelevant to worry about. Most video games are violent murder simulators, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Shoehorning in moral messages is completely irrelevant and unnecessary.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Omega on April 10, 2021, 06:28:08 PM
Pretty much. The illithid feeding requirements from Lords of Madness specify one fresh brain a month minimum, ideally one fresh brain a week. How illithids  sustain any population is beyond me, particularly as they live underground and hidden. They'd make more sense as solitary predators.

2e's Illithiad goes into alot of detail about how the mind flayers pull all this off. They've had a lot of time to get very good at this too.
The Illithiad is a lot of fun, but doesn't do a great job explaining the brain economy.

I think it goes into just enough detail to get the job done. They have 'farms' either underground or on worlds they have taken over totally. Which suggests that they have a well worked out system which was at some point broken and they are working to rebuild to full strength but even at partial strength is working where it is established.

The main point being that alot of other creatures are now aware of the threat and work hard to curb the illithids at every opportunity. And the illithids are raiding for new stock at every opportunity.

The Darkness Gathering campaign series shows them stepping things up to full swing in a bid to gain dominion over space again. Also shows just how subtle they can be when prepping areas for takeover.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 16, 2021, 08:24:42 PM
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2021/04/extra-credits-is-right-about-orcs/122161/

One Angry Gamer (which is anti-woke) has an interesting response:
Quote
But I will add a defense to the arguments listed in the Extra Credits video. Think about it this way: It is actually impossible for anyone to be inherently evil or good with no choice – because evil, like good, requires free will to truly qualify as good or evil. Saying that someone is inherently evil or good is like saying that the water was dry, or that a person is freezing hot. It’s a contradiction. In short, “evil” orcs that have no choice in the matter are not evil, but are instead like lions or sharks. They can’t help it.

Now, I don’t have any problem with having non-sentient monsters as enemies in a story. The problem is when you try to have it both ways, treating your monsters like they were people (capable of speech and society) while denying them their free will – a problematic contradiction at best, and outright bigotry at worst.

A good storyteller does not need the lazy and immoral trope of inherently evil or good races. If you want to have evil orcs, great. But it should be clear that they chose to be evil, and that there are good orcs in this world. After all, isn’t it much more satisfying to slay a monster who is truly evil, rather one who had no choice?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Mishihari on April 16, 2021, 08:44:24 PM
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2021/04/extra-credits-is-right-about-orcs/122161/

One Angry Gamer (which is anti-woke) has an interesting response:
Quote
But I will add a defense to the arguments listed in the Extra Credits video. Think about it this way: It is actually impossible for anyone to be inherently evil or good with no choice – because evil, like good, requires free will to truly qualify as good or evil. Saying that someone is inherently evil or good is like saying that the water was dry, or that a person is freezing hot. It’s a contradiction. In short, “evil” orcs that have no choice in the matter are not evil, but are instead like lions or sharks. They can’t help it.

Now, I don’t have any problem with having non-sentient monsters as enemies in a story. The problem is when you try to have it both ways, treating your monsters like they were people (capable of speech and society) while denying them their free will – a problematic contradiction at best, and outright bigotry at worst.

A good storyteller does not need the lazy and immoral trope of inherently evil or good races. If you want to have evil orcs, great. But it should be clear that they chose to be evil, and that there are good orcs in this world. After all, isn’t it much more satisfying to slay a monster who is truly evil, rather one who had no choice?

That is a very interesting point, but I am not sure that it is true.  I agree that human being are free to choose and able to override any instinct or inborn tendency they choose, but I don't know that would necessarily be true of other sentient races.  After are all, humans are the only sentient beings we know, so how can we be sure?  I don't have any trouble imagining a race that has sentience, or some measure thereof, but has an uncontrollable urge to kill humans.  Does that make them evil, or just a victim of their instincts?  I'm not sure of that, but if they kill humans then we will treat them and think of them as evil for all practical purposes.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 16, 2021, 08:56:18 PM
Sidenote: whoever it is running OAG is not the same guy from years past.

But that's an interesting and well-put point. Nonsentient animals have been known to do things that might be considered evil -- hell, watch a housecat toy with prey sometime. But convincing yourself that Fluffy is evil is a bit of a stretch.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 16, 2021, 09:26:45 PM
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2021/04/extra-credits-is-right-about-orcs/122161/

One Angry Gamer (which is anti-woke) has an interesting response:
Quote
But I will add a defense to the arguments listed in the Extra Credits video. Think about it this way: It is actually impossible for anyone to be inherently evil or good with no choice – because evil, like good, requires free will to truly qualify as good or evil. Saying that someone is inherently evil or good is like saying that the water was dry, or that a person is freezing hot. It’s a contradiction. In short, “evil” orcs that have no choice in the matter are not evil, but are instead like lions or sharks. They can’t help it.

Now, I don’t have any problem with having non-sentient monsters as enemies in a story. The problem is when you try to have it both ways, treating your monsters like they were people (capable of speech and society) while denying them their free will – a problematic contradiction at best, and outright bigotry at worst.

A good storyteller does not need the lazy and immoral trope of inherently evil or good races. If you want to have evil orcs, great. But it should be clear that they chose to be evil, and that there are good orcs in this world. After all, isn’t it much more satisfying to slay a monster who is truly evil, rather one who had no choice?

That is a very interesting point, but I am not sure that it is true.  I agree that human being are free to choose and able to override any instinct or inborn tendency they choose, but I don't know that would necessarily be true of other sentient races.  After are all, humans are the only sentient beings we know, so how can we be sure?  I don't have any trouble imagining a race that has sentience, or some measure thereof, but has an uncontrollable urge to kill humans.  Does that make them evil, or just a victim of their instincts?  I'm not sure of that, but if they kill humans then we will treat them and think of them as evil for all practical purposes.

Andromeda, tried to portray a character, BEM, who had to eat live or recently killed animals, and his species laid it's eggs in the bodies of intelligent species to reproduce.
BEM was a reformed alien who only ate live animals instead of people. But once in a while the show would point out that BEM's state of being was akin to being constantly starving, and living with talking food.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Valatar on April 16, 2021, 10:40:26 PM
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2021/04/extra-credits-is-right-about-orcs/122161/

One Angry Gamer (which is anti-woke) has an interesting response:
Quote
But I will add a defense to the arguments listed in the Extra Credits video. Think about it this way: It is actually impossible for anyone to be inherently evil or good with no choice – because evil, like good, requires free will to truly qualify as good or evil. Saying that someone is inherently evil or good is like saying that the water was dry, or that a person is freezing hot. It’s a contradiction. In short, “evil” orcs that have no choice in the matter are not evil, but are instead like lions or sharks. They can’t help it.

Now, I don’t have any problem with having non-sentient monsters as enemies in a story. The problem is when you try to have it both ways, treating your monsters like they were people (capable of speech and society) while denying them their free will – a problematic contradiction at best, and outright bigotry at worst.

A good storyteller does not need the lazy and immoral trope of inherently evil or good races. If you want to have evil orcs, great. But it should be clear that they chose to be evil, and that there are good orcs in this world. After all, isn’t it much more satisfying to slay a monster who is truly evil, rather one who had no choice?

I disagree, well I do and don't disagree, in that yes, if you are dealing with intelligent species their lives obviously need to be the result of intelligent decisions on their part, but no, I'm not going to spend time in a game telling players the life story of Random Grunt #3 to assure them that yes, he willingly signed up to be a minion of the evil bad guy and loves his evil health insurance plan.  Delving into an NPCs personal motivations is something only for key NPCs, and key NPCs aren't the apparently-black cannon fodder that players are just cutting through without a thought.

That's where the video fell apart too, their insistence that NPC choices must be made clear to players.  That's what makes it obvious that they've never played these games, because nobody spends their time fleshing out the choices of an NPC who is one solid attack roll away from death.  They're background decoration, or at best dramatic tension.  The GM hasn't even come up with a name for them, much less a backstory for their fall to evil.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: S'mon on April 17, 2021, 02:12:45 AM
Are we allowed to have evil cultures?

I remember in a lecture with overseas postgrads I once said "Bad countries..." and a girl piped up smugly "There ARE no bad countries!" so i went "Bad *governments*...." - which was apparently acceptable.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Reckall on April 17, 2021, 06:35:26 AM
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2021/04/extra-credits-is-right-about-orcs/122161/

One Angry Gamer (which is anti-woke) has an interesting response:
Quote
But I will add a defense to the arguments listed in the Extra Credits video. Think about it this way: It is actually impossible for anyone to be inherently evil or good with no choice – because evil, like good, requires free will to truly qualify as good or evil. Saying that someone is inherently evil or good is like saying that the water was dry, or that a person is freezing hot. It’s a contradiction. In short, “evil” orcs that have no choice in the matter are not evil, but are instead like lions or sharks. They can’t help it.
Uhm... No. I think I answered to this objection on this same thread. I'll re-post my answer for convenience:

"In Dungeons & Dragons Orcs developed they culture according to their natural characteristics: they are neither intelligent nor wise but they are very strong. Their natural desire of survival as a species depends, as with any other species, from using their strengths and avoiding their weaknesses. To our neutral-aligned system of reference they look evil and chaotic - because they survive by expanding by force, and because "laws" require both wisdom and intelligence. In the Orc culture the strongest win - laws, respect and enduring social order be damned. They are judged "Chaotic Evil" due to their behaviour relative to "neutrality", not as a racist label.

Once you grasp this, it becomes easy to see how Orcs can "choose" just fine what to do! Within their cultural upbring of course, they psychophysical nature and their understanding of how the World works. And an Orc character (both player and non-player) can be interesting thanks to his personal pursuit to go "beyond" the established status quo of his tribe/race."
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 17, 2021, 09:38:27 AM
To go to LOTR Orcs:

Morgoth genetically modified elves to naturally prefer and gravitate towards being evil. Evil explicitly because he wanted to be a dick and fuck shit up for all of the earth because he wanted to grief in the server he and the rest of the Valar created because daddy illuvitar wouldn't let him play with his credit card.


Is an orc redeemable? Probably yes. Are they predisposed to being capital E Evil? Also yes.

Debating the ethics of actions to be taken is fun, but in no way are they related to black people, and it's a completely different banana to suggest that orcs as a concept should not exist.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Omega on April 17, 2021, 09:42:03 AM
The real problem is when idiots read the alignment tags or background text and treat it as if it means every one of these creatures everywhere all the time. Even when text elsewhere in the rules says otherwise. Or there are existing representatives or whole cultures of these creatures that are very NOT what the books say because you are freaking told to change things.

Dont like that orcs can be non evil? Change it!
Dont like that unicorns are good? Change it!
Dont like that beings from the lower planes are evil? Change it!

All of the above have been done and so much more.

But to these morons no no no! Its NEVER been that way and they were always always misrepresented and we must FIX this! None of this is remotely new.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: rgalex on April 17, 2021, 11:01:02 AM
Sidenote: whoever it is running OAG is not the same guy from years past.

Yeah. OAG was getting hit hard with by DDoS attacks, false flags and take down cancel culture last year.  Billy, guy who ran most of it, eventually gave up and I believe sold it off.  It's run by a corporation now and they denounce any material on the site previous to Jan 1st 2021.  If you look, most of their anti-woke articles on censorship and other things stopped around August of 2020.

From their own blog:

Quote
Time to Change
 October 29, 2020  Karol

We are excited to announce that we are rebranding and restructuring the entire One Angry Gamer project. The previous webmaster has decided to invest his time into other ventures and had passed over the reigns to a new team.

OneAngryGamer.net will be on maintenance up until around March 2021, might be up and running a lot sooner – depends from investors, keep your eyes out for updates! (Comment sections will be opened again as soon as they are revised and cleaned up)

The new ownership is not responsible for any of the content that has been made up until 01/01/2021. If there are people who’d wish to edit their content or have issues regarding this topic, do not hesitate and contact us at: admin @ oneangrygamer (dot) net

We will start this journey by giving a website a new look, a more convenient functionality and a slight change to the politically related content. We will mainly be focusing on high quality articles on your favorite topics: games, cheats, discounts, technology news and so on.

The Terms of Service will be revised and updated according to Google’s AdSense policies, which can be found here: https://support.google.com/adsense/answer/9335564. Hope you will understand why this change was mandatory to secure the survival of OAG

We hope you will stay with us on this big step for the OAGamer community and talk to you soon!

We are also looking for passionate, hard-working writers to join our new team!

Potential investors can contact us at: admin @ oneangrygamer (dot) net for business inquires as well.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Reckall on April 17, 2021, 12:20:10 PM
Quote
and a slight change to the politically related content.

My lawyer will immediately point at this and say "Uhm..."
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 17, 2021, 12:28:36 PM
Yeah. OAG was getting hit hard with by DDoS attacks, false flags and take down cancel culture last year.  Billy, guy who ran most of it, eventually gave up and I believe sold it off.  It's run by a corporation now and they denounce any material on the site previous to Jan 1st 2021.

I didn't like OAG (not my stuff), but these sorts of changes are so dang typical.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: SHARK on April 17, 2021, 12:36:26 PM
Greetings!

Well, I think having naturally Evil races is a good thing. Few of these moral hall-monitors seldom question Unicorns and Sprites being Good. Beyond cosmology, historically human beings have been just fine with killing other human beings because they have a different skin colour, speak a different language, or embrace a different religion. And by that, let's remember doing so isn't merely "incidental"--but entire tribes, whole cities, entire regions have been ruthlessly put to the sword.

Being "Evil" can just as well be shorthand for a half dozen ethnic, cultural, or religious differences that summed up comprise a people that you and your neighbors don't want living in your town, fucking your sons and daughters, or gaining power over your community and deciding that they don't approve of YOUR culture, and YOU need to change--or else.

So, there's lots of reasons when you get down to it about why people A may not want people B living near them at all--and eagerly attack and kill them at every opportunity.

How much more pronounced would these differences, conflicts, and problems be with races that are not even human? So many people like to intellectually look down their noses and bloviate smugly about such--but I think that attitude is born entirely from condescending entitlement, vast ignorance, and a total lack of a realistic understanding of how people REALLY ARE.

Forget alluring, gorgeous elves that everyone wants to bang. Or sexy halflings, Gnomes, or even--in some art--half orcs, or orcs , too.

Those races are all still very much relatable to humans--and fetishized, and viewed in differing degrees as desirable. Think of many non-human races of humanids that would appear unappealing physically--or have cultures where they regularly ate human beings like we eat cattle or pigs, or chicken. Think of cultures of humanoids that absolutely enjoy keeping slaves, or maintain a brutal caste system. Imagine Rat Humanoids that eagerly embrace public orgies, or a Vulture-humanoid race that are entirely and casually cannibalistic, with those amongst their own community that are weak or crippled being brutally torn apart and devoured by their fellows. Or a Insect-Humanoid race that views females as being special and superior in social rank--just because they are females--and insists that males devote themselves to constantly serving females, and working in every way to fulfill a female's whim and desire.

These differences noted here--in addition to such races having different religions and cultures--combined with the *OPTICS* of them being humanoids--and you have even more reasons for entire kingdoms full of humans that would kill, persecute, and otherwise oppress and seek to exterminate such exotic and different races. All the while not necesarily giving a damn about what the *alignement tag* may say.

In my own campaign world of Thandor, I have a Rat-Humanoid race, a Vulture-Humanoid race, and an Insect-Humanoid race--with some of the details noted above--that humans everywhere would likely fear, loathe, and hate. Some of my own players--they find these races absolutely disgusting, and have zero sympathy for them what so ever. The women, too, *LOVE* killing them, at every opportunity. While such of course is *in-game*--if such races really existed out in the world, where humans encountered them, I don't think humans would likely respond any different than how they respond in-game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: jeff37923 on April 17, 2021, 12:57:26 PM
Another view from another podcaster. Similarly dismissive, but more from an Actual Play angle.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nR0mXC0T-Og&feature=youtube
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 17, 2021, 01:16:50 PM
To go to LOTR Orcs:

Morgoth genetically modified elves to naturally prefer and gravitate towards being evil. Evil explicitly because he wanted to be a dick and fuck shit up for all of the earth because he wanted to grief in the server he and the rest of the Valar created because daddy illuvitar wouldn't let him play with his credit card.


Is an orc redeemable? Probably yes. Are they predisposed to being capital E Evil? Also yes.

Debating the ethics of actions to be taken is fun, but in no way are they related to black people, and it's a completely different banana to suggest that orcs as a concept should not exist.
You are sugar coating what Morgoth did to his captives. It was worse than anything you can imagine, by design.

It’s implied that, among other things, he raped them. Why do I bring this up? Because elves normally die when they’re raped. One can only imagine how Morgoth pulled that off, but he did. (Here’s an article on the subject: https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2018/03/03/rape-in-tolkiens-middle-earth-part-i/ )

You can’t really say that orcs have a choice in the matter when their souls have raped by Satan. To be genuinely evil requires a choice, otherwise it’s amoral.

And what little we see of orcish culture in the books suggests they do have some kind of recognizable moral value system, with taboos against cannibalism and treachery and not pursuing vengeance, albeit warped by propaganda (they think elves and humans are evil gits motivated by greed) and the aforementioned Satanic soul rape.

The modern concept of orcs as a proud warrior race ironically does have some basis in Tolkien. Obviously this was cut from the movies, but still.


Greetings!

Well, I think having naturally Evil races is a good thing. Few of these moral hall-monitors seldom question Unicorns and Sprites being Good. Beyond cosmology, historically human beings have been just fine with killing other human beings because they have a different skin colour, speak a different language, or embrace a different religion. And by that, let's remember doing so isn't merely "incidental"--but entire tribes, whole cities, entire regions have been ruthlessly put to the sword.

Being "Evil" can just as well be shorthand for a half dozen ethnic, cultural, or religious differences that summed up comprise a people that you and your neighbors don't want living in your town, fucking your sons and daughters, or gaining power over your community and deciding that they don't approve of YOUR culture, and YOU need to change--or else.

So, there's lots of reasons when you get down to it about why people A may not want people B living near them at all--and eagerly attack and kill them at every opportunity.

How much more pronounced would these differences, conflicts, and problems be with races that are not even human? So many people like to intellectually look down their noses and bloviate smugly about such--but I think that attitude is born entirely from condescending entitlement, vast ignorance, and a total lack of a realistic understanding of how people REALLY ARE.

Forget alluring, gorgeous elves that everyone wants to bang. Or sexy halflings, Gnomes, or even--in some art--half orcs, or orcs , too.

Those races are all still very much relatable to humans--and fetishized, and viewed in differing degrees as desirable. Think of many non-human races of humanids that would appear unappealing physically--or have cultures where they regularly ate human beings like we eat cattle or pigs, or chicken. Think of cultures of humanoids that absolutely enjoy keeping slaves, or maintain a brutal caste system. Imagine Rat Humanoids that eagerly embrace public orgies, or a Vulture-humanoid race that are entirely and casually cannibalistic, with those amongst their own community that are weak or crippled being brutally torn apart and devoured by their fellows. Or a Insect-Humanoid race that views females as being special and superior in social rank--just because they are females--and insists that males devote themselves to constantly serving females, and working in every way to fulfill a female's whim and desire.

These differences noted here--in addition to such races having different religions and cultures--combined with the *OPTICS* of them being humanoids--and you have even more reasons for entire kingdoms full of humans that would kill, persecute, and otherwise oppress and seek to exterminate such exotic and different races. All the while not necesarily giving a damn about what the *alignement tag* may say.

In my own campaign world of Thandor, I have a Rat-Humanoid race, a Vulture-Humanoid race, and an Insect-Humanoid race--with some of the details noted above--that humans everywhere would likely fear, loathe, and hate. Some of my own players--they find these races absolutely disgusting, and have zero sympathy for them what so ever. The women, too, *LOVE* killing them, at every opportunity. While such of course is *in-game*--if such races really existed out in the world, where humans encountered them, I don't think humans would likely respond any different than how they respond in-game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I think a lot of the argument boils down to semantics and misunderstandings. What is morality? Who has moral agency? Does it matter?

I think both sides agree more than they disagree, but both think they disagree more due to different framing.

Ultimately I think this boils down to two things: 1) we need to mow down mooks in our violent murder simulator elf-games, and 2) fighting orcs are just cooler than scalping boring old human bandits.

I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: DocJones on April 17, 2021, 07:29:00 PM
AD&D, RoleMaster, Gurps Fantasy, T&T, and tons of others all have evil races.
In essence, they are saying that 80%+ of RPGs have this particular bad design feature.
They are full of crap.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Reckall on April 18, 2021, 07:31:46 AM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
I can't wait for the author of "Winter Tide" to write a book where the "orc village massacre" is compared with village massacres in Vietnam  ::)
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: HappyDaze on April 18, 2021, 11:40:05 AM

Being "Evil" can just as well be shorthand for a half dozen ethnic, cultural, or religious differences that summed up comprise a people that you and your neighbors don't want living in your town, fucking your sons and daughters, or gaining power over your community and deciding that they don't approve of YOUR culture, and YOU need to change--or else.

So, there's lots of reasons when you get down to it about why people A may not want people B living near them at all--and eagerly attack and kill them at every opportunity.


So there's no real reason for A to be evil rather than B being evil other than which one of the neighbors you ask? This sounds like an argument against having objectively evil races.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Fergurg on April 18, 2021, 11:45:18 AM
AD&D, RoleMaster, Gurps Fantasy, T&T, and tons of others all have evil races.
In essence, they are saying that 80%+ of RPGs have this particular bad design feature.
They are full of crap.

That is the EXACT argument that the SJW crowd is making; 80%+ of RPGs are bad design, racist, and full of thoughtcrime.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: DocJones on April 18, 2021, 12:56:50 PM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
As a player, I've often come across villages that were massacred by orcs.  That's why we hate them.  They don't blog about that.

Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2021, 01:15:46 PM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
As a player, I've often come across villages that were massacred by orcs.  That's why we hate them.  They don't blog about that.
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths. Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 18, 2021, 01:28:38 PM
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths. Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.

Why do you have to attach real-world groups to fantasy fiction? Is the idea we can't even entertain some ideas because they would be too dangerous otherwise?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: DocJones on April 18, 2021, 01:33:51 PM
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths. Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.
That's a leftist lie from the mouth of Chaos.  The only good orc is a dead orc.   They don't even make good slaves (like kobolds).  At the first opportunity an orc will rape and kill you (and not necessarily in that order). 
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: SHARK on April 18, 2021, 02:18:43 PM

Being "Evil" can just as well be shorthand for a half dozen ethnic, cultural, or religious differences that summed up comprise a people that you and your neighbors don't want living in your town, fucking your sons and daughters, or gaining power over your community and deciding that they don't approve of YOUR culture, and YOU need to change--or else.

So, there's lots of reasons when you get down to it about why people A may not want people B living near them at all--and eagerly attack and kill them at every opportunity.


So there's no real reason for A to be evil rather than B being evil other than which one of the neighbors you ask? This sounds like an argument against having objectively evil races.

Greetings!

No, not really. Having an Evil alignment simply means I don't have to write up some menu of how such a race or tribe is Evil, and why they deserve to be slaughtered en masse. They are EVIL. Let the dogs of war loose, and bring down the fire!

That keeps the game moving at a good pace and fun, instead of getting all tangled up in stupid debates on morality.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 18, 2021, 02:31:53 PM
Thinking about it these are great for evil campaigns because I don't have to worry about convincing my armies the royal family deserves a gangrapin. Cuts out a lot of dicerolls.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: VisionStorm on April 18, 2021, 03:24:32 PM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
As a player, I've often come across villages that were massacred by orcs.  That's why we hate them.  They don't blog about that.
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths.

It does if all members of ethnic group X encountered by ethnic group Y have been mass murdering psychopaths. Or at least, it would make it a reasonable assumption, which could lead to disastrous results of you assume otherwise.

Quote
Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.

We can only hope. :o
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 18, 2021, 03:28:44 PM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
As a player, I've often come across villages that were massacred by orcs.  That's why we hate them.  They don't blog about that.
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths.

It does if all members of ethnic group X encountered by ethnic group Y have been mass murdering psychopaths. Or at least, it would make it a reasonable assumption, which could lead to disastrous results of you assume otherwise.

Quote
Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.

We can only hope. :o

Only worthwhile if the targets are kender.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: SHARK on April 18, 2021, 03:33:57 PM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
As a player, I've often come across villages that were massacred by orcs.  That's why we hate them.  They don't blog about that.
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths.

It does if all members of ethnic group X encountered by ethnic group Y have been mass murdering psychopaths. Or at least, it would make it a reasonable assumption, which could lead to disastrous results of you assume otherwise.

Quote
Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.

We can only hope. :o

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend! Some of these intellectual, *moralizing* arguments seem so disconnected to me. It's like total ivory-tower garden delusion.

Imagine you living in a region, some village. For you entire life, for your father's entire life, for your grandfather's entire life--your area, the surrounding villages--have been raided by Orcs on a regular basis. The Orc warbands use your entire region as a supply of food, booty, and women to fuck and breed with. Yes, the Orcs typically capture people here and there, and roast them alive by bonfire and devour them in savage parties. Your sister, or your cousin, has given birth to half-Orc bastard offspring after being brutally raped. Your neighbors have suffered likewise. Your childhood friends, growing up with you--they all have shared similar experiences, just like yours.

Why should Orcs be treated with anything but extermination, fire, and wrath?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: HappyDaze on April 18, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
As a player, I've often come across villages that were massacred by orcs.  That's why we hate them.  They don't blog about that.
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths.

It does if all members of ethnic group X encountered by ethnic group Y have been mass murdering psychopaths. Or at least, it would make it a reasonable assumption, which could lead to disastrous results of you assume otherwise.

Quote
Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.

We can only hope. :o

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend! Some of these intellectual, *moralizing* arguments seem so disconnected to me. It's like total ivory-tower garden delusion.

Imagine you living in a region, some village. For you entire life, for your father's entire life, for your grandfather's entire life--your area, the surrounding villages--have been raided by Orcs on a regular basis. The Orc warbands use your entire region as a supply of food, booty, and women to fuck and breed with. Yes, the Orcs typically capture people here and there, and roast them alive by bonfire and devour them in savage parties. Your sister, or your cousin, has given birth to half-Orc bastard offspring after being brutally raped. Your neighbors have suffered likewise. Your childhood friends, growing up with you--they all have shared similar experiences, just like yours.

Why should Orcs be treated with anything but extermination, fire, and wrath?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Take your entire post and substitute "human" for "orc" and ask if it makes any difference.  Should humans be inherently evil?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: SHARK on April 18, 2021, 03:45:09 PM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
As a player, I've often come across villages that were massacred by orcs.  That's why we hate them.  They don't blog about that.
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths.

It does if all members of ethnic group X encountered by ethnic group Y have been mass murdering psychopaths. Or at least, it would make it a reasonable assumption, which could lead to disastrous results of you assume otherwise.

Quote
Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.

We can only hope. :o

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend! Some of these intellectual, *moralizing* arguments seem so disconnected to me. It's like total ivory-tower garden delusion.

Imagine you living in a region, some village. For you entire life, for your father's entire life, for your grandfather's entire life--your area, the surrounding villages--have been raided by Orcs on a regular basis. The Orc warbands use your entire region as a supply of food, booty, and women to fuck and breed with. Yes, the Orcs typically capture people here and there, and roast them alive by bonfire and devour them in savage parties. Your sister, or your cousin, has given birth to half-Orc bastard offspring after being brutally raped. Your neighbors have suffered likewise. Your childhood friends, growing up with you--they all have shared similar experiences, just like yours.

Why should Orcs be treated with anything but extermination, fire, and wrath?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Take your entire post and substitute "human" for "orc" and ask if it makes any difference.  Should humans be inherently evil?

Greetings!

Delenda est Carthago!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: SHARK on April 18, 2021, 04:02:39 PM
Greetings!

There is an interesting episode in our own real-world history. In the Far East, the Tangut Empire had existed for some 500 years when it came into contact with Ghengis Khan and the Mongolian Empire.

When Ghengis Khan was fighting a campaign against the Muslims of the Kwarasm Empire, and asked their friends of the Tangut Empire for help--the Tangut Empire betrayed the Mongols.

After the absolute destruction of the Kwarasm Empire, Ghengis Khan remembered the Tangut betrayal. The Mongol Horde was gathered, and in a few months, disaster fell upon the Tangut Empire like the wrath of Heaven. Every Tangut city was besieged, and annihilated. Most of the population were put to the sword. The young women were packed off in slave caravans to forever serve their Mongol masters. Tangut libraries and records and books were burned. Tangut temples were looted, and burned to the ground. The Tangut Emperor's family was publicly executed, along with the Tangut Emperor. Tangut Royal tombs, centuries old, were all looted. But not just looted--they were destroyed. Each was rooted up, burned, and scattered to the ashes of history.

The Tangut Empire was annihilated entirely from the face of the earth.

Never again would the Mongols worry about being betrayed by the Tangut.

The Tangut Empire and its people were so totally annihilated that there are scant records anywhere that they even existed--save for a few references within the Song Empire of China. That, and a few archeology sites--and what the Mongols themselves recorded within the Secret History of the Mongols is the only reason why we know of the Tangut Empire today.

That's the way things go in history. Some races and kingdoms survive, and some are annihilated.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Pat on April 18, 2021, 04:17:01 PM
Take your entire post and substitute "human" for "orc" and ask if it makes any difference.  Should humans be inherently evil?
Snidley Whiplash is inherently evil.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2021, 04:20:49 PM

Take your entire post and substitute "human" for "orc" and ask if it makes any difference.  Should humans be inherently evil?

That would imply Orcs are real or that in my fantasy world Orcs are the equal of humans.

Now please tell us, to which human ethnicity you equate Orcs to?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 18, 2021, 04:24:16 PM
Whites
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: moonsweeper on April 18, 2021, 04:29:12 PM
Whites

That seems to be the general consensus these days since they are the only race that is inherently evil.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 18, 2021, 04:39:26 PM
Whites

That seems to be the general consensus these days since they are the only race that is inherently evil.

Winners do most of the raping and pillaging, therefore.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: jeff37923 on April 18, 2021, 04:44:18 PM
Before anyone brings up this bad game design opinion, they should learn to play the game first so that they understand the context of the Evil Race.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: HappyDaze on April 18, 2021, 04:56:47 PM

Take your entire post and substitute "human" for "orc" and ask if it makes any difference.  Should humans be inherently evil?

That would imply Orcs are real or that in my fantasy world Orcs are the equal of humans.

Now please tell us, to which human ethnicity you equate Orcs to?
It would only imply they are the same in the game (which they commonly are in more modern games).

Now please tell me what human ethnicity you equate RPG humans to?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Pat on April 18, 2021, 06:11:02 PM

Take your entire post and substitute "human" for "orc" and ask if it makes any difference.  Should humans be inherently evil?

That would imply Orcs are real or that in my fantasy world Orcs are the equal of humans.

Now please tell us, to which human ethnicity you equate Orcs to?
It would only imply they are the same in the game (which they commonly are in more modern games).

Now please tell me what human ethnicity you equate RPG humans to?
Homo floresiensis. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooLk7g0k18s)
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2021, 06:20:55 PM

Take your entire post and substitute "human" for "orc" and ask if it makes any difference.  Should humans be inherently evil?

That would imply Orcs are real or that in my fantasy world Orcs are the equal of humans.

Now please tell us, to which human ethnicity you equate Orcs to?
It would only imply they are the same in the game (which they commonly are in more modern games).

Now please tell me what human ethnicity you equate RPG humans to?

Thank God I don't play "modern" games.

Why good sir all of them, in RPGs every single human ethnicity (the only real ethnicity since animals are managed differently and fantasy "races" don't real) is represented even if you can't see it in your current location.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2021, 06:21:20 PM

Take your entire post and substitute "human" for "orc" and ask if it makes any difference.  Should humans be inherently evil?

That would imply Orcs are real or that in my fantasy world Orcs are the equal of humans.

Now please tell us, to which human ethnicity you equate Orcs to?
It would only imply they are the same in the game (which they commonly are in more modern games).

Now please tell me what human ethnicity you equate RPG humans to?
Homo floresiensis. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooLk7g0k18s)

That's a good one.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: SHARK on April 18, 2021, 08:05:41 PM
Greetings!

Ahh, yes. And what do women universally do upon encountering dangerous, hostile creatures such as Rats, Slugs, Beetles, Wasps, Flies, Snakes, and Spiders?

They cry out to their men, "EWWW! KILL IT!"

But somehow, Human women wouldn't be crying out to their men to do the exact same thing to creatures such as Goblins and Orcs?

R-i-g-h-t. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Pat on April 18, 2021, 08:14:36 PM
Greetings!

Ahh, yes. And what do women universally do upon encountering dangerous, hostile creatures such as Rats, Slugs, Beetles, Wasps, Flies, Snakes, and Spiders?

They cry out to their men, "EWWW! KILL IT!"

But somehow, Human women wouldn't be crying out to their men to do the exact same thing to creatures such as Goblins and Orcs?

R-i-g-h-t. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
I'm confused. I thought orcs were black people. Now they're WASPs?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 18, 2021, 10:18:58 PM
Greetings!

Ahh, yes. And what do women universally do upon encountering dangerous, hostile creatures such as Rats, Slugs, Beetles, Wasps, Flies, Snakes, and Spiders?

They cry out to their men, "EWWW! KILL IT!"

But somehow, Human women wouldn't be crying out to their men to do the exact same thing to creatures such as Goblins and Orcs?

R-i-g-h-t. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
I'm confused. I thought orcs were black people. Now they're WASPs?

Black WASPs From Beyond.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2021, 10:42:30 PM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
As a player, I've often come across villages that were massacred by orcs.  That's why we hate them.  They don't blog about that.
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths.

It does if all members of ethnic group X encountered by ethnic group Y have been mass murdering psychopaths. Or at least, it would make it a reasonable assumption, which could lead to disastrous results of you assume otherwise.

Quote
Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.

We can only hope. :o

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend! Some of these intellectual, *moralizing* arguments seem so disconnected to me. It's like total ivory-tower garden delusion.

Imagine you living in a region, some village. For you entire life, for your father's entire life, for your grandfather's entire life--your area, the surrounding villages--have been raided by Orcs on a regular basis. The Orc warbands use your entire region as a supply of food, booty, and women to fuck and breed with. Yes, the Orcs typically capture people here and there, and roast them alive by bonfire and devour them in savage parties. Your sister, or your cousin, has given birth to half-Orc bastard offspring after being brutally raped. Your neighbors have suffered likewise. Your childhood friends, growing up with you--they all have shared similar experiences, just like yours.

Why should Orcs be treated with anything but extermination, fire, and wrath?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
There are a couple of sexist assumptions in your passage.

Firstly, do you really expect me to believe that the orcs were polite enough not to rape any of the men? (Men are vulnerable to rape too. Particularly during wartime. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males#During_armed_conflict) They always have been throughout history. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rape) The Ancient Greeks called it "the crime of Laius.")

Secondly, do you really expect me to believe none of the surviving women attempted to perform an abortion or infanticide on the demon-spawn? (Abortion has been known since ancient times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion), and so has infanticide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#History).)

Thirdly, it's all fictional anyway. Orcs aren't real. There are no orcs running around in real life raping women, while politely leaving the men unspoiled, and forcing them to carry demon-spawn to term. That's purely a fantasy. A sick twisted fantasy that doesn't appeal to me in the least, because violence against women and sexual violence against people of all ages and sexes is already a public health crisis in real life.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: VisionStorm on April 18, 2021, 11:07:56 PM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
As a player, I've often come across villages that were massacred by orcs.  That's why we hate them.  They don't blog about that.
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths.

It does if all members of ethnic group X encountered by ethnic group Y have been mass murdering psychopaths. Or at least, it would make it a reasonable assumption, which could lead to disastrous results of you assume otherwise.

Quote
Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.

We can only hope. :o

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend! Some of these intellectual, *moralizing* arguments seem so disconnected to me. It's like total ivory-tower garden delusion.

Imagine you living in a region, some village. For you entire life, for your father's entire life, for your grandfather's entire life--your area, the surrounding villages--have been raided by Orcs on a regular basis. The Orc warbands use your entire region as a supply of food, booty, and women to fuck and breed with. Yes, the Orcs typically capture people here and there, and roast them alive by bonfire and devour them in savage parties. Your sister, or your cousin, has given birth to half-Orc bastard offspring after being brutally raped. Your neighbors have suffered likewise. Your childhood friends, growing up with you--they all have shared similar experiences, just like yours.

Why should Orcs be treated with anything but extermination, fire, and wrath?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Take your entire post and substitute "human" for "orc" and ask if it makes any difference.  Should humans be inherently evil?

It depends. Do humans in this hypothetical world regularly raid orc villages (or some other race) to murder people, take their stuff and brutally rape them? Cuz if that's the case, then humans in that hypothetical world would at least appear to be evil. Whether it's "inherent" or not (something that wasn't argued) is a different issue. But from the point of view of these orcs at least (or whatever race) humans would seem to be "evil".
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: SHARK on April 19, 2021, 12:04:37 AM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
As a player, I've often come across villages that were massacred by orcs.  That's why we hate them.  They don't blog about that.
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths.

It does if all members of ethnic group X encountered by ethnic group Y have been mass murdering psychopaths. Or at least, it would make it a reasonable assumption, which could lead to disastrous results of you assume otherwise.

Quote
Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.

We can only hope. :o

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend! Some of these intellectual, *moralizing* arguments seem so disconnected to me. It's like total ivory-tower garden delusion.

Imagine you living in a region, some village. For you entire life, for your father's entire life, for your grandfather's entire life--your area, the surrounding villages--have been raided by Orcs on a regular basis. The Orc warbands use your entire region as a supply of food, booty, and women to fuck and breed with. Yes, the Orcs typically capture people here and there, and roast them alive by bonfire and devour them in savage parties. Your sister, or your cousin, has given birth to half-Orc bastard offspring after being brutally raped. Your neighbors have suffered likewise. Your childhood friends, growing up with you--they all have shared similar experiences, just like yours.

Why should Orcs be treated with anything but extermination, fire, and wrath?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
There are a couple of sexist assumptions in your passage.

Firstly, do you really expect me to believe that the orcs were polite enough not to rape any of the men? (Men are vulnerable to rape too. Particularly during wartime. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males#During_armed_conflict) They always have been throughout history. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rape) The Ancient Greeks called it "the crime of Laius.")

Secondly, do you really expect me to believe none of the surviving women attempted to perform an abortion or infanticide on the demon-spawn? (Abortion has been known since ancient times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion), and so has infanticide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#History).)

Thirdly, it's all fictional anyway. Orcs aren't real. There are no orcs running around in real life raping women, while politely leaving the men unspoiled, and forcing them to carry demon-spawn to term. That's purely a fantasy. A sick twisted fantasy that doesn't appeal to me in the least, because violence against women and sexual violence against people of all ages and sexes is already a public health crisis in real life.

Greetings!

BCT, have you forgotten to take your meds, bro?

Of course Orcs are not real. They are a fictional race of creatures that commonly exist in the game world. Most game worlds possess similar dynamics and characteristics as our own world. Hence, assuming a Ancient World/Medieval World milieu, Orcs can be assumed from their traits and attributes, etc, to behave in such violent, terrible ways. That includes brutalizing conquered peoples that get trampled under their brutal, iron hands.

Such a scenario dynamics seems quite realistic and appropriate to me.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2021, 08:30:47 AM
I don’t think anybody here has ever actually played the orc village massacre scene that commonly appears in leftist blog posts on the subject. That’s clearly a misleading caricature.
As a player, I've often come across villages that were massacred by orcs.  That's why we hate them.  They don't blog about that.
Just because some members of ethnic group X massacre villages of ethnic group Y doesn’t mean all members of ethnic group X are mass murdering psychopaths.

It does if all members of ethnic group X encountered by ethnic group Y have been mass murdering psychopaths. Or at least, it would make it a reasonable assumption, which could lead to disastrous results of you assume otherwise.

Quote
Assuming such leads to a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing.

We can only hope. :o

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend! Some of these intellectual, *moralizing* arguments seem so disconnected to me. It's like total ivory-tower garden delusion.

Imagine you living in a region, some village. For you entire life, for your father's entire life, for your grandfather's entire life--your area, the surrounding villages--have been raided by Orcs on a regular basis. The Orc warbands use your entire region as a supply of food, booty, and women to fuck and breed with. Yes, the Orcs typically capture people here and there, and roast them alive by bonfire and devour them in savage parties. Your sister, or your cousin, has given birth to half-Orc bastard offspring after being brutally raped. Your neighbors have suffered likewise. Your childhood friends, growing up with you--they all have shared similar experiences, just like yours.

Why should Orcs be treated with anything but extermination, fire, and wrath?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
There are a couple of sexist assumptions in your passage.

Firstly, do you really expect me to believe that the orcs were polite enough not to rape any of the men? (Men are vulnerable to rape too. Particularly during wartime. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males#During_armed_conflict) They always have been throughout history. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rape) The Ancient Greeks called it "the crime of Laius.")

Secondly, do you really expect me to believe none of the surviving women attempted to perform an abortion or infanticide on the demon-spawn? (Abortion has been known since ancient times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion), and so has infanticide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#History).)

Thirdly, it's all fictional anyway. Orcs aren't real. There are no orcs running around in real life raping women, while politely leaving the men unspoiled, and forcing them to carry demon-spawn to term. That's purely a fantasy. A sick twisted fantasy that doesn't appeal to me in the least, because violence against women and sexual violence against people of all ages and sexes is already a public health crisis in real life.

Greetings!

BCT, have you forgotten to take your meds, bro?

Of course Orcs are not real. They are a fictional race of creatures that commonly exist in the game world. Most game worlds possess similar dynamics and characteristics as our own world. Hence, assuming a Ancient World/Medieval World milieu, Orcs can be assumed from their traits and attributes, etc, to behave in such violent, terrible ways. That includes brutalizing conquered peoples that get trampled under their brutal, iron hands.

Such a scenario dynamics seems quite realistic and appropriate to me.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
I stopped taking anti-psychotics years ago. They were wrongly proscribed anyway. Also, I’m like super stressed all the time because I’m frustrated when know-nothings on the internet praise shit writing in fandoms that I used to like but can no longer associate with, but have no alternatives.
 
Okay. Thank you, but I play elf-games for escapism. Your idea of escapism might be a hellscape of sexual violence, and no judgment from me so to each their own, but for me my idea of escapism is to sanitize that sort of thing because I get too much of it in reality. So I only play games were orcs pop out of holes in the ground, like 13th Age. It’s just so much easier for me.

It’s not that I don’t like evil races. My favorite race is the evil zerg from Starcraft. Well, more accurately I liked their earliest portrayal as inhuman yet still introspective monsters before the idiot lead writer Chris Metzen made their main character his girlfriend insert. I can’t enjoy that fandom anymore because the fans are all fucking morons who worship the girlfriend insert and don’t give a flying fuck about the actual zerg. I fucking hate it. I have no alternatives so I can’t stop thinking about it even though thinking about makes me unhappy all the fucking time.

At least with D&D you have a huge and diverse fandom with a plethora of opinions so you never feel like you’re alone in the universe.

I’m so fucking bitter and unhappy.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 19, 2021, 08:41:55 AM
Honestly, this is all stupid circlejerking.

The Eberron setting specifically chunked all the 'always/usually' alignments, save for outsiders and a couple aberrations, for intelligent critters. There's nothing wrong with it so long as you're up front about it in your setting (now, whether it makes any sense is another matter entirely, but that's not my problem).

Go ahead and rewrite your orcs into a noble savage WoW/Elder Scrolls expy. More power to you. I don't mind. Nor should anyone else. The next guy over may have orcs be spawned from horrid pools of slime a la Warhammer/LOTR, though. Don't complain about him, unless it's completely stupid. But even then, realize you yourself may also be judged by your setting construction.

Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: VisionStorm on April 19, 2021, 11:22:15 AM
Your idea of escapism might be a hellscape of sexual violence,..., but... my idea of escapism is to sanitize that sort of thing because I get too much of it in reality.

Dude, where tha fuck do you live? The Congo?

I stopped taking anti-psychotics years ago. They were wrongly proscribed anyway. Also, I’m like super stressed all the time because I’m frustrated when know-nothings on the internet praise shit writing in fandoms that I used to like but can no longer associate with, but have no alternatives.

...

I’m so fucking bitter and unhappy.

You stress over the silliest shit. You're constantly fretting over the fact that people in the INTERNET like things you don't, and the world doesn't revolve around your personal preferences. True self-inflicted first world problems.

You're constantly complaining that people don't share your high-minded view of fiction, or your fragile mental state, where everything has to be fed to you in a sanitized form. And how writers have consistently failed to write the fiction YOU want, as is apparently their job. You worry about irrelevant shit too much, and look at everything through a exaggerated lens where everything has to be hyper-scrutinized and overthought, and any instance of something you find morally objectionable (based on a histrionic worldview) signifies the end of the world.

NO one in the western world lives in a "hellscape of sexual violence". We might be headed into a cyberpunk dystopia, but that's a different problem. I'm not gonna get rid of cyberpunk as a genre just because the Present is Dark and Cyberpunk.

Smoke some weed and try some emptiness meditation to purge yourself of these hyper-active thoughts before you hurt your brain.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 11:24:45 AM
You stress over the silliest shit. You're constantly fretting over the fact that people in the INTERNET like things you don't, and the world doesn't revolve around your personal preferences. True self-inflicted first world problems.

wheredoyouthinkweare.png
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2021, 03:45:25 PM
Your idea of escapism might be a hellscape of sexual violence,..., but... my idea of escapism is to sanitize that sort of thing because I get too much of it in reality.

Dude, where tha fuck do you live? The Congo?

I stopped taking anti-psychotics years ago. They were wrongly proscribed anyway. Also, I’m like super stressed all the time because I’m frustrated when know-nothings on the internet praise shit writing in fandoms that I used to like but can no longer associate with, but have no alternatives.

...

I’m so fucking bitter and unhappy.

You stress over the silliest shit. You're constantly fretting over the fact that people in the INTERNET like things you don't, and the world doesn't revolve around your personal preferences. True self-inflicted first world problems.

You're constantly complaining that people don't share your high-minded view of fiction, or your fragile mental state, where everything has to be fed to you in a sanitized form. And how writers have consistently failed to write the fiction YOU want, as is apparently their job. You worry about irrelevant shit too much, and look at everything through a exaggerated lens where everything has to be hyper-scrutinized and overthought, and any instance of something you find morally objectionable (based on a histrionic worldview) signifies the end of the world.

NO one in the western world lives in a "hellscape of sexual violence". We might be headed into a cyberpunk dystopia, but that's a different problem. I'm not gonna get rid of cyberpunk as a genre just because the Present is Dark and Cyberpunk.

Smoke some weed and try some emptiness meditation to purge yourself of these hyper-active thoughts before you hurt your brain.
We live in a capitalist society. I should be able to find something that suits my tastes. I’m frustrated that I can’t.

I know I sound entitled. I’m working on my own writing because I know nobody else will write what I’m looking for.

Happy?

You guys complain about SJWs all the time. I should be allowed to complain that one idiot writer fucked up an entire genre to the point that no one else tried to touch it since.

This isn’t even about orcs anymore. Orcs are not on my list of things I find interesting unless it’s an RTS where I can play orc conquistadors. Go and write some trashy orc rape porn, I dare you. I’m probably not going to read it, but I respect people’s free speech rights to write what they want.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 19, 2021, 04:30:57 PM
I respect people’s free speech rights to write what they want.

I mean I respect that stance, but I think what ended up rubbing people (and me) the wrong way is the moralizing judgement of other peoples ethics.
'I don't like overtly sexual orc rape games/ I like to have humanistic villains' is very different from 'Having pure evil in games is a dangerous reflection on reality and desensitizes people from violence towards villains and genocide'.

I actually noticed a trend that I always tend to humanize my antagonists unless they are utterly alien beings, but I don't make value judgements of people that just have 'evil orcs'. Nor do I think that humanistic orcs are somesort of superior game design.

Which is what this discussion is a reaction too. The video that said 'Evil orcs are INFERIOR game design'.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2021, 04:51:38 PM
I respect people’s free speech rights to write what they want.

I mean I respect that stance, but I think what ended up rubbing people (and me) the wrong way is the moralizing judgement of other peoples ethics.
'I don't like overtly sexual orc rape games/ I like to have humanistic villains' is very different from 'Having pure evil in games is a dangerous reflection on reality and desensitizes people from violence towards villains and genocide'.

I actually noticed a trend that I always tend to humanize my antagonists unless they are utterly alien beings, but I don't make value judgements of people that just have 'evil orcs'. Nor do I think that humanistic orcs are somesort of superior game design.

Which is what this discussion is a reaction too. The video that said 'Evil orcs are INFERIOR game design'.
One of the reasons I despise WarCraft is because the orcs were changed between the second and third game from conquistadors to peaceful Native American stereotypes who don’t take responsibility for their past war crimes.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 05:40:22 PM
I respect people’s free speech rights to write what they want.

I mean I respect that stance, but I think what ended up rubbing people (and me) the wrong way is the moralizing judgement of other peoples ethics.
'I don't like overtly sexual orc rape games/ I like to have humanistic villains' is very different from 'Having pure evil in games is a dangerous reflection on reality and desensitizes people from violence towards villains and genocide'.

I actually noticed a trend that I always tend to humanize my antagonists unless they are utterly alien beings, but I don't make value judgements of people that just have 'evil orcs'. Nor do I think that humanistic orcs are somesort of superior game design.

Which is what this discussion is a reaction too. The video that said 'Evil orcs are INFERIOR game design'.
One of the reasons I despise WarCraft is because the orcs were changed between the second and third game from conquistadors to peaceful Native American stereotypes who don’t take responsibility for their past war crimes.

They're not real, what past war crimes.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: VisionStorm on April 19, 2021, 05:53:03 PM
Your idea of escapism might be a hellscape of sexual violence,..., but... my idea of escapism is to sanitize that sort of thing because I get too much of it in reality.

Dude, where tha fuck do you live? The Congo?

I stopped taking anti-psychotics years ago. They were wrongly proscribed anyway. Also, I’m like super stressed all the time because I’m frustrated when know-nothings on the internet praise shit writing in fandoms that I used to like but can no longer associate with, but have no alternatives.

...

I’m so fucking bitter and unhappy.

You stress over the silliest shit. You're constantly fretting over the fact that people in the INTERNET like things you don't, and the world doesn't revolve around your personal preferences. True self-inflicted first world problems.

You're constantly complaining that people don't share your high-minded view of fiction, or your fragile mental state, where everything has to be fed to you in a sanitized form. And how writers have consistently failed to write the fiction YOU want, as is apparently their job. You worry about irrelevant shit too much, and look at everything through a exaggerated lens where everything has to be hyper-scrutinized and overthought, and any instance of something you find morally objectionable (based on a histrionic worldview) signifies the end of the world.

NO one in the western world lives in a "hellscape of sexual violence". We might be headed into a cyberpunk dystopia, but that's a different problem. I'm not gonna get rid of cyberpunk as a genre just because the Present is Dark and Cyberpunk.

Smoke some weed and try some emptiness meditation to purge yourself of these hyper-active thoughts before you hurt your brain.
We live in a capitalist society. I should be able to find something that suits my tastes. I’m frustrated that I can’t.

I know I sound entitled. I’m working on my own writing because I know nobody else will write what I’m looking for.

Happy?

You guys complain about SJWs all the time. I should be allowed to complain that one idiot writer fucked up an entire genre to the point that no one else tried to touch it since.

This isn’t even about orcs anymore. Orcs are not on my list of things I find interesting unless it’s an RTS where I can play orc conquistadors. Go and write some trashy orc rape porn, I dare you. I’m probably not going to read it, but I respect people’s free speech rights to write what they want.

1) A capitalist society does not guarantee that you will (or should be able to) find products that specifically cater to your unique and overly specialized and complicated tastes.

2) There's a difference between complaining about an entire movement of people actively causing demonstrable and measurable harm to society and all its institutions, while forcing their views on everyone and the system itself, and profusely moping and complaining that different works of fiction don't reflect your personal and highly questionable and subjective opinions. And how everyone is a moron and you live in a constant state of misery as a result of such completely frivolous shit.

I respect people’s free speech rights to write what they want.

I mean I respect that stance, but I think what ended up rubbing people (and me) the wrong way is the moralizing judgement of other peoples ethics.
'I don't like overtly sexual orc rape games/ I like to have humanistic villains' is very different from 'Having pure evil in games is a dangerous reflection on reality and desensitizes people from violence towards villains and genocide'.

I actually noticed a trend that I always tend to humanize my antagonists unless they are utterly alien beings, but I don't make value judgements of people that just have 'evil orcs'. Nor do I think that humanistic orcs are somesort of superior game design.

Which is what this discussion is a reaction too. The video that said 'Evil orcs are INFERIOR game design'.
One of the reasons I despise WarCraft is because the orcs were changed between the second and third game from conquistadors to peaceful Native American stereotypes who don’t take responsibility for their past war crimes.

Responsibility for what? What their ancestors did? Wasn't WC 3 an entirely new generation of orcs born YEARS after the events in WC1 &2 (were orcs were actual conquerors) lead by an orc leader who was a former slave to humans, and tried to reform orcs, only to end up joining humans to fight the Burning Legion, which kinda implies that they DID take responsibility (or at least make amends) for what their ANCESTORS did?

This is where your opinions fall apart. You assert questionable stuff that doesn't even entirely map with reality, then you work yourself up into a moping mess over fundamentally flawed perceptions of various topics that don't even matter that much even if your assertions were correct. Which they're not.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 05:55:04 PM


Quote

2) There's a difference between complaining about an entire movement of people actively causing demonstrable and measurable harm to society and all its institutions, while forcing their views on everyone and the system itself, and profusely moping and complaining that different works of fiction don't reflect your personal and highly questionable and subjective opinions. And how everyone is a moron and you live in a constant state of misery as a result of such completely frivolous shit.

Yeah the latter group might actually realize the complaining don't do shit.

Edit: Latter! Latter, not former! Why do you always fuck this up, what is wrong with you!
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Omega on April 19, 2021, 06:53:36 PM
Before anyone brings up this bad game design opinion, they should learn to play the game first so that they understand the context of the Evil Race.

Alot of these nuts are no different from ones infesting about anything now. Cultists. They hate something because someone told them to.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2021, 07:13:21 PM
Your idea of escapism might be a hellscape of sexual violence,..., but... my idea of escapism is to sanitize that sort of thing because I get too much of it in reality.

Dude, where tha fuck do you live? The Congo?

I stopped taking anti-psychotics years ago. They were wrongly proscribed anyway. Also, I’m like super stressed all the time because I’m frustrated when know-nothings on the internet praise shit writing in fandoms that I used to like but can no longer associate with, but have no alternatives.

...

I’m so fucking bitter and unhappy.

You stress over the silliest shit. You're constantly fretting over the fact that people in the INTERNET like things you don't, and the world doesn't revolve around your personal preferences. True self-inflicted first world problems.

You're constantly complaining that people don't share your high-minded view of fiction, or your fragile mental state, where everything has to be fed to you in a sanitized form. And how writers have consistently failed to write the fiction YOU want, as is apparently their job. You worry about irrelevant shit too much, and look at everything through a exaggerated lens where everything has to be hyper-scrutinized and overthought, and any instance of something you find morally objectionable (based on a histrionic worldview) signifies the end of the world.

NO one in the western world lives in a "hellscape of sexual violence". We might be headed into a cyberpunk dystopia, but that's a different problem. I'm not gonna get rid of cyberpunk as a genre just because the Present is Dark and Cyberpunk.

Smoke some weed and try some emptiness meditation to purge yourself of these hyper-active thoughts before you hurt your brain.
We live in a capitalist society. I should be able to find something that suits my tastes. I’m frustrated that I can’t.

I know I sound entitled. I’m working on my own writing because I know nobody else will write what I’m looking for.

Happy?

You guys complain about SJWs all the time. I should be allowed to complain that one idiot writer fucked up an entire genre to the point that no one else tried to touch it since.

This isn’t even about orcs anymore. Orcs are not on my list of things I find interesting unless it’s an RTS where I can play orc conquistadors. Go and write some trashy orc rape porn, I dare you. I’m probably not going to read it, but I respect people’s free speech rights to write what they want.

1) A capitalist society does not guarantee that you will (or should be able to) find products that specifically cater to your unique and overly specialized and complicated tastes.

2) There's a difference between complaining about an entire movement of people actively causing demonstrable and measurable harm to society and all its institutions, while forcing their views on everyone and the system itself, and profusely moping and complaining that different works of fiction don't reflect your personal and highly questionable and subjective opinions. And how everyone is a moron and you live in a constant state of misery as a result of such completely frivolous shit.

I respect people’s free speech rights to write what they want.

I mean I respect that stance, but I think what ended up rubbing people (and me) the wrong way is the moralizing judgement of other peoples ethics.
'I don't like overtly sexual orc rape games/ I like to have humanistic villains' is very different from 'Having pure evil in games is a dangerous reflection on reality and desensitizes people from violence towards villains and genocide'.

I actually noticed a trend that I always tend to humanize my antagonists unless they are utterly alien beings, but I don't make value judgements of people that just have 'evil orcs'. Nor do I think that humanistic orcs are somesort of superior game design.

Which is what this discussion is a reaction too. The video that said 'Evil orcs are INFERIOR game design'.
One of the reasons I despise WarCraft is because the orcs were changed between the second and third game from conquistadors to peaceful Native American stereotypes who don’t take responsibility for their past war crimes.

Responsibility for what? What their ancestors did? Wasn't WC 3 an entirely new generation of orcs born YEARS after the events in WC1 &2 (were orcs were actual conquerors) lead by an orc leader who was a former slave to humans, and tried to reform orcs, only to end up joining humans to fight the Burning Legion, which kinda implies that they DID take responsibility (or at least make amends) for what their ANCESTORS did?

This is where your opinions fall apart. You assert questionable stuff that doesn't even entirely map with reality, then you work yourself up into a moping mess over fundamentally flawed perceptions of various topics that don't even matter that much even if your assertions were correct. Which they're not.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline

Barely a decade passes between the second and third wars.

I don’t understand you at all. I’m complaining that some orcs aren’t evil and you’re insulting me for it. I would’ve thought you’d be like-minded.

I get the feeling you don’t actually care about the content of my opinions and just personally dislike me.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: jhkim on April 19, 2021, 08:30:33 PM
Some of these intellectual, *moralizing* arguments seem so disconnected to me. It's like total ivory-tower garden delusion.

Imagine you living in a region, some village. For you entire life, for your father's entire life, for your grandfather's entire life--your area, the surrounding villages--have been raided by Orcs on a regular basis. The Orc warbands use your entire region as a supply of food, booty, and women to fuck and breed with. Yes, the Orcs typically capture people here and there, and roast them alive by bonfire and devour them in savage parties. Your sister, or your cousin, has given birth to half-Orc bastard offspring after being brutally raped. Your neighbors have suffered likewise. Your childhood friends, growing up with you--they all have shared similar experiences, just like yours.

Why should Orcs be treated with anything but extermination, fire, and wrath?

Your idea of escapism might be a hellscape of sexual violence,..., but... my idea of escapism is to sanitize that sort of thing because I get too much of it in reality.

Dude, where tha fuck do you live? The Congo?
....
NO one in the western world lives in a "hellscape of sexual violence". We might be headed into a cyberpunk dystopia, but that's a different problem. I'm not gonna get rid of cyberpunk as a genre just because the Present is Dark and Cyberpunk.

VisionStorm, I think you're talking past BoxCrayonTales here. When he refers to "hellscape", he is not talking about where he lives in the real world. (He says he gets too much dark shit in his real life, but he isn't describing his real-life world as a "hellscape".) He's talking about a violent fantasy world -- specifically the sort of world that SHARK just described in a prior post. He prefers his fantasy world to be less dark than that - by having orcs that are just flat-out evil vermin without requiring justifying it by their sexual violence.

I can understand that. At my current turning point in gaming, I'm coming to think that a lot of the delving in the dark, grim-and-gritty shit in many of my previous games hasn't actually been as much fun as it sounded. I'm wrapping up a year-long Call of Cthulhu campaign now, and I'm looking forwards to something a little lighter.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: SHARK on April 19, 2021, 08:44:52 PM
Some of these intellectual, *moralizing* arguments seem so disconnected to me. It's like total ivory-tower garden delusion.

Imagine you living in a region, some village. For you entire life, for your father's entire life, for your grandfather's entire life--your area, the surrounding villages--have been raided by Orcs on a regular basis. The Orc warbands use your entire region as a supply of food, booty, and women to fuck and breed with. Yes, the Orcs typically capture people here and there, and roast them alive by bonfire and devour them in savage parties. Your sister, or your cousin, has given birth to half-Orc bastard offspring after being brutally raped. Your neighbors have suffered likewise. Your childhood friends, growing up with you--they all have shared similar experiences, just like yours.

Why should Orcs be treated with anything but extermination, fire, and wrath?

Your idea of escapism might be a hellscape of sexual violence,..., but... my idea of escapism is to sanitize that sort of thing because I get too much of it in reality.

Dude, where tha fuck do you live? The Congo?
....
NO one in the western world lives in a "hellscape of sexual violence". We might be headed into a cyberpunk dystopia, but that's a different problem. I'm not gonna get rid of cyberpunk as a genre just because the Present is Dark and Cyberpunk.

VisionStorm, I think you're talking past BoxCrayonTales here. When he refers to "hellscape", he is not talking about where he lives in the real world. (He says he gets too much dark shit in his real life, but he isn't describing his real-life world as a "hellscape".) He's talking about a violent fantasy world -- specifically the sort of world that SHARK just described in a prior post. He prefers his fantasy world to be less dark than that - by having orcs that are just flat-out evil vermin without requiring justifying it by their sexual violence.

I can understand that. At my current turning point in gaming, I'm coming to think that a lot of the delving in the dark, grim-and-gritty shit in many of my previous games hasn't actually been as much fun as it sounded. I'm wrapping up a year-long Call of Cthulhu campaign now, and I'm looking forwards to something a little lighter.

Greetings!

Well, I described such a fantastic reality within a milieu--as to why Humans or others might have good reason to hate Orcs and want them exterminated. It isn't just because the Orcs wear a "Black Hat". Evil alignment isn't just a coloured badge. In my campaigns, Evil creatures and races are EVIL. Evil races regularly do EVIL things, like brutally conquering peaceful races, roasting them over fires and eating them, sacrificing them on altars to dark gods, breaking them to the yoke of slavery, and plundering their women and breeding hordes of disgusting, violent, hate-filled mongrels.

THAT'S why Orcs are evil, and monstrous, and need to be exterminated.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 19, 2021, 08:48:52 PM
Responsibility for what? What their ancestors did? Wasn't WC 3 an entirely new generation of orcs born YEARS after the events in WC1 &2 (were orcs were actual conquerors) lead by an orc leader who was a former slave to humans, and tried to reform orcs, only to end up joining humans to fight the Burning Legion, which kinda implies that they DID take responsibility (or at least make amends) for what their ANCESTORS did?

This is where your opinions fall apart. You assert questionable stuff that doesn't even entirely map with reality, then you work yourself up into a moping mess over fundamentally flawed perceptions of various topics that don't even matter that much even if your assertions were correct. Which they're not.

Man, Blizzard lore is it's own brand of IP hell. "Evil race was actually corrupted by evil-er race, so let's team up to fight the bigger badder!" Has been their go-to since forever.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 08:54:54 PM
Responsibility for what? What their ancestors did? Wasn't WC 3 an entirely new generation of orcs born YEARS after the events in WC1 &2 (were orcs were actual conquerors) lead by an orc leader who was a former slave to humans, and tried to reform orcs, only to end up joining humans to fight the Burning Legion, which kinda implies that they DID take responsibility (or at least make amends) for what their ANCESTORS did?

This is where your opinions fall apart. You assert questionable stuff that doesn't even entirely map with reality, then you work yourself up into a moping mess over fundamentally flawed perceptions of various topics that don't even matter that much even if your assertions were correct. Which they're not.

Man, Blizzard lore is it's own brand of IP hell. "Evil race was actually corrupted by evil-er race, so let's team up to fight the bigger badder!" Has been their go-to since forever.

It's superhero comics but fantasy and somebody could make it work but it sure wasn't Blizz.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Spinachcat on April 19, 2021, 08:58:05 PM
I personally LOVE evil races...for so many reasons.

It's one of the reasons I enjoy Alignment. Some creatures are inherently and cosmically aligned to Chaos, to Evil, to demonic gods and devil lords.

As for justification, all that matters is the setting. Every setting deserves its own "rules" and when you design your own setting, those rules are yours alone to decide.

However, an "evil" race in Traveller or Gamma World makes less sense, but aliens and mutants whose modus operandi is diametrically opposed to anything remotely civilized (or perhaps, beneficial to the PCs) are easy enough to drop into the setting and they are, for all intents and purposes, a race of evil.


I’m so fucking bitter and unhappy.

Life's too short for that. I highly suggest a media detox and spending more time in nature.

Man's artificial world is not conducive to mental health. Drive to a beach and put your feet in the sand, or hike in the nearest forest, mountains or even an urban park. Pack a lunch and extra water and turn off your cellphone.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: VisionStorm on April 19, 2021, 09:24:08 PM
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline

Barely a decade passes between the second and third wars.

I don’t understand you at all. I’m complaining that some orcs aren’t evil and you’re insulting me for it. I would’ve thought you’d be like-minded.

I get the feeling you don’t actually care about the content of my opinions and just personally dislike me.

Even if only a decade had passed, that still doesn't change the fact that many in the Horde were a younger generation by this point, that they were trying to reform themselves and that they did join up with humans to fight the same Big Bad evil that originally corrupted them, which means that they did take responsibility and steps towards cleaning up their act. Humans still didn't accept them afterward. It's not like they did a clean slate and forgot all the orcs did.

Also, my argument has never been that all orcs must be evil--they aren't even irredeemably evil in my games, just savages naturally predisposed to aggression. I just think that inherently evil races are not necessarily a bad thing and could work, depending on the nature of the setting and how those races came about. Some version of orcs could be invariably evil and irredeemable, such as orcs created by magic to be creatures of darkness. Others could just be violence-prone brutes, who could nonetheless have the capacity for good. In Warcraft they're closer to the second type (at least as portrayed as of WC3+).

Some of these intellectual, *moralizing* arguments seem so disconnected to me. It's like total ivory-tower garden delusion.

Imagine you living in a region, some village. For you entire life, for your father's entire life, for your grandfather's entire life--your area, the surrounding villages--have been raided by Orcs on a regular basis. The Orc warbands use your entire region as a supply of food, booty, and women to fuck and breed with. Yes, the Orcs typically capture people here and there, and roast them alive by bonfire and devour them in savage parties. Your sister, or your cousin, has given birth to half-Orc bastard offspring after being brutally raped. Your neighbors have suffered likewise. Your childhood friends, growing up with you--they all have shared similar experiences, just like yours.

Why should Orcs be treated with anything but extermination, fire, and wrath?

Your idea of escapism might be a hellscape of sexual violence,..., but... my idea of escapism is to sanitize that sort of thing because I get too much of it in reality.

Dude, where tha fuck do you live? The Congo?
....
NO one in the western world lives in a "hellscape of sexual violence". We might be headed into a cyberpunk dystopia, but that's a different problem. I'm not gonna get rid of cyberpunk as a genre just because the Present is Dark and Cyberpunk.

VisionStorm, I think you're talking past BoxCrayonTales here. When he refers to "hellscape", he is not talking about where he lives in the real world. (He says he gets too much dark shit in his real life, but he isn't describing his real-life world as a "hellscape".) He's talking about a violent fantasy world -- specifically the sort of world that SHARK just described in a prior post. He prefers his fantasy world to be less dark than that - by having orcs that are just flat-out evil vermin without requiring justifying it by their sexual violence.

I can understand that. At my current turning point in gaming, I'm coming to think that a lot of the delving in the dark, grim-and-gritty shit in many of my previous games hasn't actually been as much fun as it sounded. I'm wrapping up a year-long Call of Cthulhu campaign now, and I'm looking forwards to something a little lighter.

Meh...maybe. Crayon mopes so much, I don't know sometimes.

Responsibility for what? What their ancestors did? Wasn't WC 3 an entirely new generation of orcs born YEARS after the events in WC1 &2 (were orcs were actual conquerors) lead by an orc leader who was a former slave to humans, and tried to reform orcs, only to end up joining humans to fight the Burning Legion, which kinda implies that they DID take responsibility (or at least make amends) for what their ANCESTORS did?

This is where your opinions fall apart. You assert questionable stuff that doesn't even entirely map with reality, then you work yourself up into a moping mess over fundamentally flawed perceptions of various topics that don't even matter that much even if your assertions were correct. Which they're not.

Man, Blizzard lore is it's own brand of IP hell. "Evil race was actually corrupted by evil-er race, so let's team up to fight the bigger badder!" Has been their go-to since forever.

It's superhero comics but fantasy and somebody could make it work but it sure wasn't Blizz.

It's been decades since I played those games and my memory is crap, so I don't entirely get what people hate about it.  :-

But I guess making the evil race an "ackshually, they were really corrupted by an eviler race" is a weak copout.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 19, 2021, 09:50:17 PM
Life's too short for that. I highly suggest a media detox and spending more time in nature.

Man's artificial world is not conducive to mental health. Drive to a beach and put your feet in the sand, or hike in the nearest forest, mountains or even an urban park. Pack a lunch and extra water and turn off your cellphone.

Dont do it that's how the anprims get you
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on April 19, 2021, 09:55:41 PM
Quote from: SHARK link=topic=43387.msg
  In my campaigns, Evil creatures and races are EVIL. Evil races regularly do EVIL things, like brutally conquering peaceful races, roasting them over fires and eating them, sacrificing them on altars to dark gods, breaking them to the yoke of slavery, and plundering their women...

I'm just re-reading Wheel of Time (listening while walking my dog) and up to this point it reminds me of trollocs/myrddraal. (I think Jordan did a good job of showing how bad/evil they were without being gratuitous. That was one of the changes in tone that Sanderson brought to the last few books which I really disliked.)

I think the only character who had an issue killing a trolloc was Loial for about 2 minutes - but that's because he's from a species of tree-hugging semi-pacifists. And that's just the first time - he kicks butt and takes names later. The traveling people are the gypsy/hippies of the world and refused to fight anybody - but they don't eat meat either (which I'm a bit dubious of them getting proper nutrition while traveling around in a medieval setting - but whatever).

I really do think that the issue with evil orcs specifically is that they've been used so many different ways in different settings. If I were publishing a fantasy setting and wanted 100% evil incarnate style orcs as a central piece of the setting, I'd probably just call them something different. Just to avoid the baggage that comes with orcs being used in settings where they aren't evil incarnate and are potentially just the same as everybody else (latter Warcraft is the only setting I know of which goes that far - but I'm sure there are others).

I would still likely use orcs as a more brutish species who aren't as civilized and do a lot of raiding etc. - likely leaning more towards the evil end of the spectrum - perhaps involved in demon worshipping or whatever. It's a good shorthand than players are used to.

Do I have ANY problem with 100% evil orcs? No. Are people who say having evil orcs/races being foolish? Yes.

But I feel like it'd be easier to create a new species which is 100% evil incarnate rather than going to the trouble of explaining that THESE orcs are evil incarnate, unlike the orcs that the players may be familiar with in other settings.

Addendum: At least for an RPG. Goblin Slayer showed that it's possible to use the preconceptions of the reader - in the case of goblins that they're weak, no danger, and possibly cute - as a tool. In it's case, as a gut-punch when the goblins brutally kill the group of intrepid young adventurers etc. I didn't get that far in, but it seemed sort of implied that they're very weak demons, or at least related to them. They can't even survive without being parasites - as there are no female goblins... (obvious implication - and not the goofy Warhammer fungus explanation)
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 10:04:03 PM
Quote from: SHARK link=topic=43387.msg
  In my campaigns, Evil creatures and races are EVIL. Evil races regularly do EVIL things, like brutally conquering peaceful races, roasting them over fires and eating them, sacrificing them on altars to dark gods, breaking them to the yoke of slavery, and plundering their women...

I'm just re-reading Wheel of Time (listening while walking my dog) and up to this point it reminds me of trollocs/myrddraal. (I think Jordan did a good job of showing how bad/evil they were without being gratuitous. That was one of the changes in tone that Sanderson brought to the last few books which I really disliked.)

I think the only character who had an issue killing a trolloc was Loial for about 2 minutes - but that's because he's from a species of tree-hugging semi-pacifists. And that's just the first time - he kicks butt and takes names later. The traveling people are the gypsy/hippies of the world and refused to fight anybody - but they don't eat meat either (which I'm a bit dubious of them getting proper nutrition while traveling around in a medieval setting - but whatever).

I really do think that the issue with evil orcs specifically is that they've been used so many different ways in different settings. If I were publishing a fantasy setting and wanted 100% evil incarnate style orcs as a central piece of the setting, I'd probably just call them something different. Just to avoid the baggage that comes with orcs being used in settings where they aren't evil incarnate and are potentially just the same as everybody else (latter Warcraft is the only setting I know of which goes that far - but I'm sure there are others).

I would still likely use orcs as a more brutish species who aren't as civilized and do a lot of raiding etc. - likely leaning more towards the evil end of the spectrum - perhaps involved in demon worshipping or whatever. It's a good shorthand than players are used to.

Do I have ANY problem with 100% evil orcs? No. Are people who say having evil orcs/races being foolish? Yes.

But I feel like it'd be easier to create a new species which is 100% evil incarnate rather than going to the trouble of explaining that THESE orcs are evil incarnate, unlike the orcs that the players may be familiar with in other settings.

Session zero:

Me: In this world things are like this...... & Orcs are inherently Evil.

If anyone has a question the answer comes in flavors of: Because this is my table, my game and my world. More or less aggressive depending on the way the question was framed and could even get to: If you don't like it there's the door.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 19, 2021, 11:15:53 PM
One of the reasons I despise WarCraft is because the orcs were changed between the second and third game from conquistadors to peaceful Native American stereotypes who don’t take responsibility for their past war crimes.

I'm not sure how this relates to my point at all. And while I don't like the WoW IP or world, Im pretty sure you don't have to answer for the sins of your father, unless that's what you view should happen which I disagree with.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 20, 2021, 01:09:11 AM
It's been decades since I played those games and my memory is crap, so I don't entirely get what people hate about it.  :-

But I guess making the evil race an "ackshually, they were really corrupted by an eviler race" is a weak copout.

So like I said it doesn't have to be bad but it is, like, in terms of style. It is comic-booky because it goes to the same well of "Team up to fight bigger bad" every other expansion now. Waffles a lot on "Orcs were corrupted by demons" and "Nah orcs woulda been warmongers and shit without demons." Does big crossover events where you fight resurrected bad guys from the past who are now from alternate timelines in the future, real Crisis shit. It's just comic-booky and somebody who played the early games or the first WoW release then got trapped in a cave for twenty years would wonder what the fuck happened when they came out.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on April 20, 2021, 07:23:30 AM
Session zero:

Me: In this world things are like this...... & Orcs are inherently Evil.

If anyone has a question the answer comes in flavors of: Because this is my table, my game and my world. More or less aggressive depending on the way the question was framed and could even get to: If you don't like it there's the door.

You're not contradicting me.

You are talking about a game you're running. I was talking about theoretical writing of an RPG campaign setting.

I agree that at any particular table it's not a problem with a proper session 0. But if writing a RPG and/or setting, you can't be sure said session 0 will occur. Many players barely/ever bother cracking a setting book - relying upon the GM.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: VisionStorm on April 20, 2021, 09:16:48 AM
It's been decades since I played those games and my memory is crap, so I don't entirely get what people hate about it.  :-

But I guess making the evil race an "ackshually, they were really corrupted by an eviler race" is a weak copout.

So like I said it doesn't have to be bad but it is, like, in terms of style. It is comic-booky because it goes to the same well of "Team up to fight bigger bad" every other expansion now. Waffles a lot on "Orcs were corrupted by demons" and "Nah orcs woulda been warmongers and shit without demons." Does big crossover events where you fight resurrected bad guys from the past who are now from alternate timelines in the future, real Crisis shit. It's just comic-booky and somebody who played the early games or the first WoW release then got trapped in a cave for twenty years would wonder what the fuck happened when they came out.

Ah, I never got into WoW. Tried it for a bit (a few years after release), never got into it (not enough visual customization options), discovered City of Heroes (and eventually Champions Online) soon after. Never looked back. My only real experience was the old games (and Starcraft 1) so I never fully went through the "every expansion is a retcon and/or a rehash of the plot at the end of WC3". I also never expected it to be a very deep story, since the games were just supposed to be X vs Y vs Z RTS games that just need an excuse to pit one side against the other in strategic battle.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: This Guy on April 20, 2021, 09:27:20 AM
You made the right choice bro, didn't get into Champions but CoH got done dirty by NCSoft.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 20, 2021, 09:42:43 AM
Ultimately, it’s a game. We need mooks to kill and orcs are just cooler than using humans. That’s it. If encounters with orcs are always hostile, that doesn’t make it inferior to a game where orcs are an allowed PC race with free alignment.

Elf-games are violent slaughter simulators. If somebody doesn’t like that, then they should play something else. I’m sure that there must be loads of RPG with a core gameplay loop that isn’t based around killing and looting.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Shasarak on April 20, 2021, 06:25:14 PM
Should humans be inherently evil?

They should not be and yet here we are.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 06:58:34 PM
Session zero:

Me: In this world things are like this...... & Orcs are inherently Evil.

If anyone has a question the answer comes in flavors of: Because this is my table, my game and my world. More or less aggressive depending on the way the question was framed and could even get to: If you don't like it there's the door.

You're not contradicting me.

You are talking about a game you're running. I was talking about theoretical writing of an RPG campaign setting.

I agree that at any particular table it's not a problem with a proper session 0. But if writing a RPG and/or setting, you can't be sure said session 0 will occur. Many players barely/ever bother cracking a setting book - relying upon the GM.

What's stoping anyone from taking a game where Orcs are peace loving hippies and turning them into evil killing machines?

What's stoping anyone from taking a game where Orcs are evil killing machines and turning them into peace loving hippies?

NOTHING.

Ergo write what you want and stop worrying about what the buyers might or not do or feel, there will allways be someone that'll find something to complain about.

In my games Orcs (and other species) are evil, because I say so, hell I ran a campaign where elves, dwarves and halflings were evil too, only humans were allowed as PCs.

It's not lazy, it's not evil and it causes no harm to do so, so fuck the puritans.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 06:59:39 PM
Ultimately, it’s a game. We need mooks to kill and orcs are just cooler than using humans. That’s it. If encounters with orcs are always hostile, that doesn’t make it inferior to a game where orcs are an allowed PC race with free alignment.

Elf-games are violent slaughter simulators. If somebody doesn’t like that, then they should play something else. I’m sure that there must be loads of RPG with a core gameplay loop that isn’t based around killing and looting.

And if someone wants to houserule an elf game into animal crossing more power to them.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: HappyDaze on April 20, 2021, 07:20:50 PM
Should humans be inherently evil?

They should not be and yet here we are.
You're assuming the posters here are human?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: SHARK on April 20, 2021, 07:22:37 PM
Ultimately, it’s a game. We need mooks to kill and orcs are just cooler than using humans. That’s it. If encounters with orcs are always hostile, that doesn’t make it inferior to a game where orcs are an allowed PC race with free alignment.

Elf-games are violent slaughter simulators. If somebody doesn’t like that, then they should play something else. I’m sure that there must be loads of RPG with a core gameplay loop that isn’t based around killing and looting.

And if someone wants to houserule an elf game into animal crossing more power to them.

Greetings!

I well remember one campaign I ran, way back during high school. The group was 4 guys and 2 girls. They were all greedy, ruthless "murder hobos" that ran around killing, swindling, and conquering everything within reach. Whole villages and towns were plundered and subjugated, along with dragon lairs, vampire castles, faerie-filled forests. Not something I would want as a steady diet by any means--but it was fun as a break from being in campaigns where everyone was heroic, righteous, and noble. It was funny, too. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: VisionStorm on April 20, 2021, 07:25:09 PM
Should humans be inherently evil?

They should not be and yet here we are.
You're assuming the posters here are human?

Are you outing yourself?  ???
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Reckall on April 20, 2021, 07:25:42 PM
Should humans be inherently evil?
Inherently evil humans are Bad Design. Whole religions would collapse...
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 20, 2021, 07:39:57 PM
"What is humanity but a disease?" --Prometheus, Starsiege.

Honestly, Geeky's got it right. Nothing stops you from turning orcs into deranged murder machines (hell, Paizo did that with goblins -- yeah, there's an element of comedy in them, but Pathfinder goblins are just barely sapient two-legged piranha with an aptitude for fire-handling). Or turning them into anything else. It's your setting.

What I find absurd is how the wokeists wave this around like it's some kind of banner to rally to when (a) better and smarter people have done it already, and (b) they are protesting perhaps a bit too much.

Because there are some people whose behavior strikes me as pretty damned orc-like, these days. And I wonder if that's the burr in their pants.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 20, 2021, 07:56:29 PM

Ah, I never got into WoW. Tried it for a bit (a few years after release), never got into it (not enough visual customization options), discovered City of Heroes (and eventually Champions Online) soon after. Never looked back. My only real experience was the old games (and Starcraft 1) so I never fully went through the "every expansion is a retcon and/or a rehash of the plot at the end of WC3". I also never expected it to be a very deep story, since the games were just supposed to be X vs Y vs Z RTS games that just need an excuse to pit one side against the other in strategic battle.

I don't think deep is a word I'd use to describe WoW or Blizzard storytelling in general. It's convoluted, but pretty shallow. Like you say, I don't expect a deep storytelling experience from an RTS or MMORPG.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Shasarak on April 21, 2021, 06:21:34 PM
Should humans be inherently evil?

They should not be and yet here we are.
You're assuming the posters here are human?

Why would I assume that?
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Reckall on April 22, 2021, 06:05:43 AM
Should humans be inherently evil?

They should not be and yet here we are.
You're assuming the posters here are human?

Why would I assume that?
There you are, posting on theRPGSite, and all of sudden you are a human! You didn't ask for this. You didn't choose this. And yet, there it is...
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Kyle Aaron on April 22, 2021, 08:34:34 AM
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe..."
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: yabaziou on April 22, 2021, 09:05:33 AM
The human race is evil and badly designed yet we exist and play our existence like a absurd and hopeless game. Dear me ! I thought the idiots who blabber about evil races were projecting their nihilistic and empty view on themselves and humankind, but no, they are doing stupid things that only magnify my utter contempt for those cultists of progressive (actually Marxism and Communist rhetoric regurgitate by uncouth morons who are barely litterate but whatever).

Are they using their platform as a mean to join the vast herd of WotC freelancers, used because they are cheap as fuck and disposable like garbage ?

Could they find a hobby they actually like/love instead of infiltrate one which they appear to loathe with the might of their petty and diseased mind ?

Meanwhile, I had tremendous joy and fun at my last D&D to witness my players (I am the DM) utterly annihilate a goblin nest, goblin slayer style.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Omega on April 22, 2021, 10:57:06 AM
Can we all just agree that this thing that has co-opted and replaced Extra Credits is a raging idiot?
Much like Disney, GW and WOTC are not the companies they used to be.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Slambo on April 22, 2021, 12:23:22 PM
Can we all just agree that this thing that has co-opted and replaced Extra Credits is a raging idiot?
Much like Disney, GW and WOTC are not the companies they used to be.

The actual writer is the same guy, they went off their rockers when gamergate happened
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on April 22, 2021, 12:36:01 PM
Can we all just agree that this thing that has co-opted and replaced Extra Credits is a raging idiot?
Much like Disney, GW and WOTC are not the companies they used to be.

The actual writer is the same guy, they went off their rockers when gamergate happened

The primary writer is. I think that the guy who used to host/speak used to at least help curate topics.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Omega on April 22, 2021, 01:09:45 PM
Can we all just agree that this thing that has co-opted and replaced Extra Credits is a raging idiot?
Much like Disney, GW and WOTC are not the companies they used to be.

The actual writer is the same guy, they went off their rockers when gamergate happened

The primary writer is. I think that the guy who used to host/speak used to at least help curate topics.

hmm. Different from what I heard. But wouldnt surprise me if were true.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: mightybrain on April 22, 2021, 07:42:32 PM
Why would I assume that?

On the Internet, nobody knows you're an orc.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: palaeomerus on July 22, 2021, 06:03:36 AM
Should humans be inherently evil?

They should not be and yet here we are.
You're assuming the posters here are human?

Why would I assume that?
There you are, posting on theRPGSite, and all of sudden you are a human! You didn't ask for this. You didn't choose this. And yet, there it is...

Also, you are likely to be eaten by a grue unless Gandhi goes nuts and lets the nukes fly.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Slipshot762 on July 22, 2021, 04:01:33 PM
for simplification purpose i have my own formula for what constitutes good or evil as far as game rules that hinge on such a determination. I base it on the nature of the thing alone; humans ARE neutral, but they can do good or evil, doing either doesn't make them not neutral, unless they become gifted with a fiendish or celestial template or imbual they are neither good or evil regardless of their actions.  they can serve either, it makes no difference, inherently, what they ARE, like most creatures from the material prime, is neutral.

By this same method I have celestials as always good, as a function of what they ARE, even if it commits evil it is not considered an evil creature unless it is from or bound in service to the lower planes.

likewise a demon is evil, even if it is good hearted does good and is misunderstood, the paladin will still detect it as evil and smite will work even if it was elstwise lawful good in every regard. its simply made out of negative evil meat and energy.

To do otherwise is to argue with neckbeards about their actions and alignment and the behavior of the sword they hold and so on.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on July 22, 2021, 05:04:29 PM
http://dmsworkshop.com/2021/04/03/evil-orcs/

Quote
by encouraging a DM to use a non-human enemy to avoid the appearance of racism, I gave this admin a conniption fit so intense they threatened to ban me.


Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Shasarak on July 22, 2021, 05:23:01 PM
for simplification purpose i have my own formula for what constitutes good or evil as far as game rules that hinge on such a determination. I base it on the nature of the thing alone; humans ARE neutral, but they can do good or evil, doing either doesn't make them not neutral, unless they become gifted with a fiendish or celestial template or imbual they are neither good or evil regardless of their actions.  they can serve either, it makes no difference, inherently, what they ARE, like most creatures from the material prime, is neutral.

By this same method I have celestials as always good, as a function of what they ARE, even if it commits evil it is not considered an evil creature unless it is from or bound in service to the lower planes.

likewise a demon is evil, even if it is good hearted does good and is misunderstood, the paladin will still detect it as evil and smite will work even if it was elstwise lawful good in every regard. its simply made out of negative evil meat and energy.

To do otherwise is to argue with neckbeards about their actions and alignment and the behavior of the sword they hold and so on.

Which leads to hilarious situations where Asmodeus detects as Lawful Good.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 22, 2021, 07:44:47 PM
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Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Omega on July 24, 2021, 07:40:55 AM
With Skeletor it actually makes sense as he was once a human with good intentions, corrupted and turned into the monster he is. And he was alot more evil and competent in the original pack in comics.
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Armchair Gamer on July 24, 2021, 09:16:25 AM
With Skeletor it actually makes sense as he was once a human with good intentions, corrupted and turned into the monster he is. And he was alot more evil and competent in the original pack in comics.

  Some iterations of Skeletor were human or humanoid once. In others, he's purely monstrous and demonic. The original minicomics suggest he's one of a race of similar beings, while the series bible--which actually post-dates those first four--establishes him as the last survivor of Infinita, Eternia's counter-planet which is pretty much Apokalips with the serial numbers filed off. Filmation only refers to him as 'a demon from another dimension.'

  The introduction of Hordak as his mentor in 1985 adds a bit of development to the character, with one storybook suggesting he was a yellow-faced humanoid before theft of some of Hordak's "Etherium" turned him into the skull-faced monster we know and love. At the tail end of the line, hints were dropped that he might actually be King Randor's vanished brother Keldor, but it wasn't until the early 2000s that we got any confirmation that that was the direction they were going before cancellation.

   The 2002 relaunch went with the Keldor Origin, removing the idea that it was an unknown secret, and adding in the element of Keldor as a half-"Gar" (blue elf, essentially) and thus only a half-brother to Randor. Later material has leaned all-in on the Keldor Origin, and played up the racial divide and added 'victim' elements to the background. I don't know or care what Kevin Smith's Revelation pastiche is doing with the character, and who knows what the next relaunch (which is coming out but has been kept very quiet on the details, it seems) will use?

   
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: RandyB on July 24, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
With Skeletor it actually makes sense as he was once a human with good intentions, corrupted and turned into the monster he is. And he was alot more evil and competent in the original pack in comics.

  Some iterations of Skeletor were human or humanoid once. In others, he's purely monstrous and demonic. The original minicomics suggest he's one of a race of similar beings, while the series bible--which actually post-dates those first four--establishes him as the last survivor of Infinita, Eternia's counter-planet which is pretty much Apokalips with the serial numbers filed off. Filmation only refers to him as 'a demon from another dimension.'

  The introduction of Hordak as his mentor in 1985 adds a bit of development to the character, with one storybook suggesting he was a yellow-faced humanoid before theft of some of Hordak's "Etherium" turned him into the skull-faced monster we know and love. At the tail end of the line, hints were dropped that he might actually be King Randor's vanished brother Keldor, but it wasn't until the early 2000s that we got any confirmation that that was the direction they were going before cancellation.

   The 2002 relaunch went with the Keldor Origin, removing the idea that it was an unknown secret, and adding in the element of Keldor as a half-"Gar" (blue elf, essentially) and thus only a half-brother to Randor. Later material has leaned all-in on the Keldor Origin, and played up the racial divide and added 'victim' elements to the background. I don't know or care what Kevin Smith's Revelation pastiche is doing with the character, and who knows what the next relaunch (which is coming out but has been kept very quiet on the details, it seems) will use?

   

Aforementioned Series Bible here: https://old.he-man.org/cartoon/exclusivefeatures/exclusive-mastersseriesbible-intro.shtml
Title: Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on July 24, 2021, 03:20:38 PM
Evil Races are Bad Game Design
Evil races, or evil classes, are bad game design?