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Author Topic: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”  (Read 15871 times)

HappyDaze

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2021, 06:13:20 AM »
Pretty much. The illithid feeding requirements from Lords of Madness specify one fresh brain a month minimum, ideally one fresh brain a week. How illithids  sustain any population is beyond me, particularly as they live underground and hidden. They'd make more sense as solitary predators.

2e's Illithiad goes into alot of detail about how the mind flayers pull all this off. They've had a lot of time to get very good at this too.
That was a fun book. Don't see too many products like that now, at least not from WotC.

Pat
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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2021, 10:34:20 AM »
Pretty much. The illithid feeding requirements from Lords of Madness specify one fresh brain a month minimum, ideally one fresh brain a week. How illithids  sustain any population is beyond me, particularly as they live underground and hidden. They'd make more sense as solitary predators.

2e's Illithiad goes into alot of detail about how the mind flayers pull all this off. They've had a lot of time to get very good at this too.
The Illithiad is a lot of fun, but doesn't do a great job explaining the brain economy.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2021, 11:57:31 AM »
Hence why I prefer phrenic scourges. They’re open game content, they’re literally faceless tentacle monsters, and they don’t have any absurd dietary restrictions. Plus, Dreamscarred Press wrote a few more books about them, including things like aquatic variants and doppelganger hybrids. Out of all the obscure mind flayer substitutes that have been published during the d20 boom, they’re easily the most detailed.

agkistro13

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2021, 11:57:01 AM »
How is it that SJWs can't understand the concept of an evil race when they think whiteness is inherently evil?

How is it that they can't understand the concept of an evil culture when they think everybody born before 1995 is evil?

This Guy
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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2021, 12:22:17 PM »
Obviously they're a different breed than right thinking chads like you and I so it's okay to just fuck em up for this
I don't want to play with you.

VisionStorm

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2021, 12:58:53 PM »
How is it that SJWs can't understand the concept of an evil race when they think whiteness is inherently evil?

How is it that they can't understand the concept of an evil culture when they think everybody born before 1995 is evil?

Based on the critical theorist conception of the world, society is entirely made up of two classes of people: the Oppressors and the Oppressed. And language is inherently a tool used by the dominant group to subjugate the oppressed minorities. So the automatic assumption is that in any work of fiction that features an “evil” race, that race is meant to represent various marginalized groups in society, presenting them as vile in order to justify their subjugation or destruction. The thought that these fictional races could represent white people (or NO race, for that matter, since they FICTIONAL races that aren't human or even real) doesn't enter their mind. These works are the product of the dominant group in society, and often reflect that group's cultural traditions (such as European myth and folklore) therefore they're being used to influence people's thinking through language to uphold the dominant group and suppress the rest. Period.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2021, 04:16:34 PM »
So I’m going to tackle the original argument from a philosophical and engineering perspective.

From a philosophical perspective: how do you even define evil in the first place? Even among humans, arguments about morality and ethics have been going on for thousands of years. Assuming you can even define evil, How do you know that an evil race is actually evil? Maybe they’re actually good guys, and you’re the evil one. Maybe they’re so alien that they can’t be meaningfully described thru human morality. Maybe they’re not inherently evil, and you’re a racist who ignores information that doesn’t confirm your bias.

If a species is biologically driven to eat their offspring and considers that synonymous with good (as in their word for “good” literally translates to “eats babies”) due to an evolutionary quirk, then what gives you the right to force them onto reservations where they’ll hate themselves for being unable to follow their instinctive conscience? You evil imperialist!

From an engineering perspective: unless you’re making a CRPG where moral choices are important or a psychological horror game or whatever, then it’s irrelevant to worry about. Most video games are violent murder simulators, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Shoehorning in moral messages is completely irrelevant and unnecessary.

Omega

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2021, 06:28:08 PM »
Pretty much. The illithid feeding requirements from Lords of Madness specify one fresh brain a month minimum, ideally one fresh brain a week. How illithids  sustain any population is beyond me, particularly as they live underground and hidden. They'd make more sense as solitary predators.

2e's Illithiad goes into alot of detail about how the mind flayers pull all this off. They've had a lot of time to get very good at this too.
The Illithiad is a lot of fun, but doesn't do a great job explaining the brain economy.

I think it goes into just enough detail to get the job done. They have 'farms' either underground or on worlds they have taken over totally. Which suggests that they have a well worked out system which was at some point broken and they are working to rebuild to full strength but even at partial strength is working where it is established.

The main point being that alot of other creatures are now aware of the threat and work hard to curb the illithids at every opportunity. And the illithids are raiding for new stock at every opportunity.

The Darkness Gathering campaign series shows them stepping things up to full swing in a bid to gain dominion over space again. Also shows just how subtle they can be when prepping areas for takeover.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2021, 08:24:42 PM »
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2021/04/extra-credits-is-right-about-orcs/122161/

One Angry Gamer (which is anti-woke) has an interesting response:
Quote
But I will add a defense to the arguments listed in the Extra Credits video. Think about it this way: It is actually impossible for anyone to be inherently evil or good with no choice – because evil, like good, requires free will to truly qualify as good or evil. Saying that someone is inherently evil or good is like saying that the water was dry, or that a person is freezing hot. It’s a contradiction. In short, “evil” orcs that have no choice in the matter are not evil, but are instead like lions or sharks. They can’t help it.

Now, I don’t have any problem with having non-sentient monsters as enemies in a story. The problem is when you try to have it both ways, treating your monsters like they were people (capable of speech and society) while denying them their free will – a problematic contradiction at best, and outright bigotry at worst.

A good storyteller does not need the lazy and immoral trope of inherently evil or good races. If you want to have evil orcs, great. But it should be clear that they chose to be evil, and that there are good orcs in this world. After all, isn’t it much more satisfying to slay a monster who is truly evil, rather one who had no choice?

Mishihari

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #84 on: April 16, 2021, 08:44:24 PM »
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2021/04/extra-credits-is-right-about-orcs/122161/

One Angry Gamer (which is anti-woke) has an interesting response:
Quote
But I will add a defense to the arguments listed in the Extra Credits video. Think about it this way: It is actually impossible for anyone to be inherently evil or good with no choice – because evil, like good, requires free will to truly qualify as good or evil. Saying that someone is inherently evil or good is like saying that the water was dry, or that a person is freezing hot. It’s a contradiction. In short, “evil” orcs that have no choice in the matter are not evil, but are instead like lions or sharks. They can’t help it.

Now, I don’t have any problem with having non-sentient monsters as enemies in a story. The problem is when you try to have it both ways, treating your monsters like they were people (capable of speech and society) while denying them their free will – a problematic contradiction at best, and outright bigotry at worst.

A good storyteller does not need the lazy and immoral trope of inherently evil or good races. If you want to have evil orcs, great. But it should be clear that they chose to be evil, and that there are good orcs in this world. After all, isn’t it much more satisfying to slay a monster who is truly evil, rather one who had no choice?

That is a very interesting point, but I am not sure that it is true.  I agree that human being are free to choose and able to override any instinct or inborn tendency they choose, but I don't know that would necessarily be true of other sentient races.  After are all, humans are the only sentient beings we know, so how can we be sure?  I don't have any trouble imagining a race that has sentience, or some measure thereof, but has an uncontrollable urge to kill humans.  Does that make them evil, or just a victim of their instincts?  I'm not sure of that, but if they kill humans then we will treat them and think of them as evil for all practical purposes.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #85 on: April 16, 2021, 08:56:18 PM »
Sidenote: whoever it is running OAG is not the same guy from years past.

But that's an interesting and well-put point. Nonsentient animals have been known to do things that might be considered evil -- hell, watch a housecat toy with prey sometime. But convincing yourself that Fluffy is evil is a bit of a stretch.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #86 on: April 16, 2021, 09:26:45 PM »
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2021/04/extra-credits-is-right-about-orcs/122161/

One Angry Gamer (which is anti-woke) has an interesting response:
Quote
But I will add a defense to the arguments listed in the Extra Credits video. Think about it this way: It is actually impossible for anyone to be inherently evil or good with no choice – because evil, like good, requires free will to truly qualify as good or evil. Saying that someone is inherently evil or good is like saying that the water was dry, or that a person is freezing hot. It’s a contradiction. In short, “evil” orcs that have no choice in the matter are not evil, but are instead like lions or sharks. They can’t help it.

Now, I don’t have any problem with having non-sentient monsters as enemies in a story. The problem is when you try to have it both ways, treating your monsters like they were people (capable of speech and society) while denying them their free will – a problematic contradiction at best, and outright bigotry at worst.

A good storyteller does not need the lazy and immoral trope of inherently evil or good races. If you want to have evil orcs, great. But it should be clear that they chose to be evil, and that there are good orcs in this world. After all, isn’t it much more satisfying to slay a monster who is truly evil, rather one who had no choice?

That is a very interesting point, but I am not sure that it is true.  I agree that human being are free to choose and able to override any instinct or inborn tendency they choose, but I don't know that would necessarily be true of other sentient races.  After are all, humans are the only sentient beings we know, so how can we be sure?  I don't have any trouble imagining a race that has sentience, or some measure thereof, but has an uncontrollable urge to kill humans.  Does that make them evil, or just a victim of their instincts?  I'm not sure of that, but if they kill humans then we will treat them and think of them as evil for all practical purposes.

Andromeda, tried to portray a character, BEM, who had to eat live or recently killed animals, and his species laid it's eggs in the bodies of intelligent species to reproduce.
BEM was a reformed alien who only ate live animals instead of people. But once in a while the show would point out that BEM's state of being was akin to being constantly starving, and living with talking food.
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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #87 on: April 16, 2021, 10:40:26 PM »
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2021/04/extra-credits-is-right-about-orcs/122161/

One Angry Gamer (which is anti-woke) has an interesting response:
Quote
But I will add a defense to the arguments listed in the Extra Credits video. Think about it this way: It is actually impossible for anyone to be inherently evil or good with no choice – because evil, like good, requires free will to truly qualify as good or evil. Saying that someone is inherently evil or good is like saying that the water was dry, or that a person is freezing hot. It’s a contradiction. In short, “evil” orcs that have no choice in the matter are not evil, but are instead like lions or sharks. They can’t help it.

Now, I don’t have any problem with having non-sentient monsters as enemies in a story. The problem is when you try to have it both ways, treating your monsters like they were people (capable of speech and society) while denying them their free will – a problematic contradiction at best, and outright bigotry at worst.

A good storyteller does not need the lazy and immoral trope of inherently evil or good races. If you want to have evil orcs, great. But it should be clear that they chose to be evil, and that there are good orcs in this world. After all, isn’t it much more satisfying to slay a monster who is truly evil, rather one who had no choice?

I disagree, well I do and don't disagree, in that yes, if you are dealing with intelligent species their lives obviously need to be the result of intelligent decisions on their part, but no, I'm not going to spend time in a game telling players the life story of Random Grunt #3 to assure them that yes, he willingly signed up to be a minion of the evil bad guy and loves his evil health insurance plan.  Delving into an NPCs personal motivations is something only for key NPCs, and key NPCs aren't the apparently-black cannon fodder that players are just cutting through without a thought.

That's where the video fell apart too, their insistence that NPC choices must be made clear to players.  That's what makes it obvious that they've never played these games, because nobody spends their time fleshing out the choices of an NPC who is one solid attack roll away from death.  They're background decoration, or at best dramatic tension.  The GM hasn't even come up with a name for them, much less a backstory for their fall to evil.

S'mon

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2021, 02:12:45 AM »
Are we allowed to have evil cultures?

I remember in a lecture with overseas postgrads I once said "Bad countries..." and a girl piped up smugly "There ARE no bad countries!" so i went "Bad *governments*...." - which was apparently acceptable.

Reckall

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Re: Extra Credits: “Evil Races are Bad Game Design”
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2021, 06:35:26 AM »
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2021/04/extra-credits-is-right-about-orcs/122161/

One Angry Gamer (which is anti-woke) has an interesting response:
Quote
But I will add a defense to the arguments listed in the Extra Credits video. Think about it this way: It is actually impossible for anyone to be inherently evil or good with no choice – because evil, like good, requires free will to truly qualify as good or evil. Saying that someone is inherently evil or good is like saying that the water was dry, or that a person is freezing hot. It’s a contradiction. In short, “evil” orcs that have no choice in the matter are not evil, but are instead like lions or sharks. They can’t help it.
Uhm... No. I think I answered to this objection on this same thread. I'll re-post my answer for convenience:

"In Dungeons & Dragons Orcs developed they culture according to their natural characteristics: they are neither intelligent nor wise but they are very strong. Their natural desire of survival as a species depends, as with any other species, from using their strengths and avoiding their weaknesses. To our neutral-aligned system of reference they look evil and chaotic - because they survive by expanding by force, and because "laws" require both wisdom and intelligence. In the Orc culture the strongest win - laws, respect and enduring social order be damned. They are judged "Chaotic Evil" due to their behaviour relative to "neutrality", not as a racist label.

Once you grasp this, it becomes easy to see how Orcs can "choose" just fine what to do! Within their cultural upbring of course, they psychophysical nature and their understanding of how the World works. And an Orc character (both player and non-player) can be interesting thanks to his personal pursuit to go "beyond" the established status quo of his tribe/race."
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.