Quote from: estar;726292Aspects are not meta, fate points and the fate economy are because you are thinking about those elements as a player not as your character.

So are say, Hit Points, especially since they don't equate to injury directly.

Its odd what we'll get hung up on when similar things exist in games (many) of us like.

Quote from: Silverlion;726302So are say, Hit Points, especially since they don't equate to injury directly.

Its odd what we'll get hung up on when similar things exist in games (many) of us like.

THIS. Levels are "meta", as are experience points. And +2 longswords. And saving throws.

There's not an ounce of fucking difference between that and Fate points. And it's not like "Fate economy" is some kind of magical thing that sets Fate apartfrom all other RPGs - it's just a convenient way to say that Fate points get passed around. There's no magic in it. Honest.

It's perfectly and completely okay to dislike Fate. It's even okay to say, "Yeah, aspects and Fate Points aren't for me". But don't try to couch it in some kind of faux-theory "meta" bullcrap. It's a completely made up thing for people to use as a code word for, "I don't like this game because it's not like this other game, but I want to make it sound like I have a totally intelligent reason for it". Just say you don't like the fucking game and be done with it.

The big thing about fate points is that they give the player fine control of how the character is developing.

New characteristics, advantages, and disadvantages can be added at any time during game play instead of at that one moment when the character gains a new level. This represents a profound evolution from level-based games... Some players that need the structure of a level-based game don't do too well with that open-ended, any-direction, on-the-fly, off the cuff, natural style that Fate generates.

With the GM providing pretty much an on-demand supply of fate points the tempo, cycles, and harmony of the game is pretty much up to the players. In the hands of a good GM and an active interesting group of players, dynamic awesome games can evolve out of these interactions. I have also seen these high-octane action fueled games spectacularly crash and burn as well, especially when just two players polarize the player group into two more-or-less opposing camps.

I've got no issues with the system. I however don't like the history erasure going on towards FUDGE.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;726337THIS. Levels are "meta", as are experience points. And +2 longswords. And saving throws.

That's not what "meta" (as in, metagaming) means. The habitual usage of "metagaming" in every RPG board I've ever been to, means, explicitly, player decisions informed solely by game mechanics and entirely dissociated (as Justin Alexander likes to say) from what's going on in the game world.

Except all of those map back to something in the game world: a character's actual experience; "the dweomer woven in Shinynewblade is mightier even than that of Mypreviousword!"; escaping deadly situations by the skin of your teeth.

What the fuck does "oh no, I can't tag 'Master of the Danish Long Axe' anymore because I've spent all my Fate Points resisting 'Gotta Tap That Ass' compels from the succubus!" map to?

Quote from: Rivetgeek;726337There's not an ounce of fucking difference between that and Fate points. And it's not like "Fate economy" is some kind of magical thing that sets Fate apartfrom all other RPGs - it's just a convenient way to say that Fate points get passed around. There's no magic in it. Honest.

It's perfectly and completely okay to dislike Fate. It's even okay to say, "Yeah, aspects and Fate Points aren't for me". But don't try to couch it in some kind of faux-theory "meta" bullcrap. It's a completely made up thing for people to use as a code word for, "I don't like this game because it's not like this other game, but I want to make it sound like I have a totally intelligent reason for it". Just say you don't like the fucking game and be done with it.

Telling other people that they have no right to articulate their dislike of something doesn't strike me as particularly useful either.

Also, bear in mind that recognizing a difference between FATE and other, more traditionally designed RPG rulesets doesn't mean that (a) one has to dislike FATE; (b) one has to dislike people playing FATE; or (c) one has to subscribe to any sort of ideological crusade. In fact FATE is explicitly exempt from the site owner's War Against The Swine because he considers it a "regular RPG".

Quote from: Silverlion;726302So are say, Hit Points, especially since they don't equate to injury directly.

Its odd what we'll get hung up on when similar things exist in games (many) of us like.

In Chainmail a veteran warrior could be killed by a single damage point. A Hero was worth four veteran warriors and took four hits to kill. This was expanded in OD&D to Hit Dice from which hit points were rolled. It is abstract compared the damage system of Runequest, GURPS, etc but it is tied back to a in-game attribute of the character. And the loss of hit points is directly tied to character experiencing taking injury and exhaustion. If a character takes hit points loss it is a result of something happening in-game.

Fate Point in contrast are not tied to any character attributes. They come not as a result of something done in-game or in-game time passing but from out of game considerations of plot points and story. Their expenditure is a decision that the player alone makes not the player as his character.

Fates Points are a meta-game mechanic mechanic and Hit Points are an abstract mechanic.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;726374I've got no issues with the system. I however don't like the history erasure going on towards FUDGE.

There is no deliberate erasure it is a consequence of Fudge being under an open license.  The latest version of Fate was re-written from the ground up in part to to allow it to be released under more licenses than just the OGL. In Fate's case it is dual licensed under the OGL and a creative commons license (CC-BY)

Quote from: Rivetgeek;726337THIS. Levels are "meta", as are experience points. And +2 longswords. And saving throws.

Levels, xp, +2 longswords, and saving throws can be tied back to specific attributes of a character. It is possible to imagine a person being able to fight and defeat four veteran fighters, hence 4th levels. Sheet Metal workers start off as Apprentices, then when they demonstrated the skills become a Journeymen and finally progress to Foreman. Each require the workers to learn and demonstrate a series of skills.  

A magical longsword that increase the fighting ability of a warrior is a common fantasy trope. And finally the ability to resist or avoid something bad happening is abstracted into a single roll with the idea that a more experienced character has a higher chance of avoiding "bad things".

Quote from: Rivetgeek;726337There's not an ounce of fucking difference between that and Fate points. And it's not like "Fate economy" is some kind of magical thing that sets Fate apartfrom all other RPGs - it's just a convenient way to say that Fate points get passed around. There's no magic in it. Honest.

All the mechanics above are abstractions. Fate Points do not tie back to an attribute of the character. It is not an abstraction of a in-game concept. Rather it is a mechanic to regulate the plot or story of a RPG campaign.

It is the difference between a story game mechanic of creating a setting and Amber RPGs ability for character to create worlds. Both generate the same result, the creation of an imagined setting. However the story game mechanics is being employed by the PLAYER, while the Amber mechanics is being employed by the CHARACTER being played by the player.

I refereed and played Fate a half-dozen times and have observed how fate points are used. It is a meta-game mechanic, like GURPS Luck, or Whimsy Cards. Doesn't mean it good or bad, it means that when used it is by the players thinking as a player.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;726337It's perfectly and completely okay to dislike Fate. It's even okay to say, "Yeah, aspects and Fate Points aren't for me". But don't try to couch it in some kind of faux-theory "meta" bullcrap.

What difference does make if it a meta-game mechanic? Why calling it a meta-game mechanic makes me a hater of Fate? First off I am kickstarter backer of both Evil Hats projects (dice and book). I have borrowed liberally from Fate for my own Fudge Games. I have no problem with playing Fate, I would run it if asked however I prefer my own Fudge based alternative.

I think Aspects are a great option and solve a long standing problem I had with Advantage/Disadvantage system of GURPS and Hero System.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;726337It's a completely made up thing for people to use as a code word for, "I don't like this game because it's not like this other game, but I want to make it sound like I have a totally intelligent reason for it". Just say you don't like the fucking game and be done with it.

That your assumption not mine.I refereed Fate games multiple times and people had fun. As mentioned I backed the Evil Hats kickstarters.  In this case your assumption is very much wrong.

And as a general comment my viewpoint that there is no good or bad mechanics there are just advantages and consequences. The consequence of the heavy use of Fate Points in the Fate RPGs is that for much of the game you are thinking as a player rather than as a character.

For many players this consequence is something they find fun. The success of the kickstarter and the sales position on RPGNow shows that Fate has a solid audience. Other players find that this breaks the immersion of being there as their characters.

Quote from: estar;726381There is no deliberate erasure it is a consequence of Fudge being under an open license.  The latest version of Fate was re-written from the ground up in part to to allow it to be released under more licenses than just the OGL. In Fate's case it is dual licensed under the OGL and a creative commons license (CC-BY)

That's not the problem. It's the way they freak out when folks still call it FATE or use the original acronym. Like having roots in FUDGE is a bad thing.

Ester I want to hug you.  Seriously just cause some one pointed out a fact, or god forbid a flaw doesn't mean the person hates the game.  People grow up and release that even good game systems can have critics that still enjoy the game.  Not all critics are out to destroy your game.

Quote from: estar;726385And as a general comment my viewpoint that there is no good or bad mechanics there are just advantages and consequences.

Hallelujah!

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;726387That's not the problem. It's the way they freak out when folks still call it FATE or use the original acronym. Like having roots in FUDGE is a bad thing.

Fudge apparently abandoned its own lame, forced acronym in 2000, six years before Evil Hat did the same. And maybe they "freaked out" in the past (I don't know), but their recent stated position on it sounds like hey, please use the currently correct official version, but it's not a big deal if you don't?

Quote from: estar;726385And as a general comment my viewpoint that there is no good or bad mechanics there are just advantages and consequences. The consequence of the heavy use of Fate Points in the Fate RPGs is that for much of the game you are thinking as a player rather than as a character.

I don't think there's any disagreement that there are mechanics in Fate that engage at a player level rather than a character level (most invokes I find to be borderline, though Concessions and Compels are pretty clearly at the player level.)

I think where people disagree is that when you play Fate you're spending most of your time thinking "as a player".  This is simply not true for me.  I find many things in more traditional RPGs as immersion-breaking if not more so than Fate - and when I look at overall time "in character", I find that in Fate that percentage is at least as high as most traditional games - though how and *why* I think 'as a player' is certainly different.

I certainly don't deny that for some people some of the Fate mechanics can be very harmful to immersion, but at the same time, I know many people that don't have any problems at all with immersion when playing Fate.  Now, how or why that is is a great question, as it's likely some set of expectations, varying areas of familiarity, priorities, biases, and how the rules of the game are actually being applied.

I'm certainly not going to argue that for you, Fate Core has the effect of making it so that 'for much of the game you are thinking as a player rather than as a character.'  But do recognize that there are people for whom that is not true.

Quote from: Plague of Hats;726816Fudge apparently abandoned its own lame, forced acronym in 2000, six years before Evil Hat did the same. And maybe they "freaked out" in the past (I don't know), but their recent stated position on it sounds like hey, please use the currently correct official version, but it's not a big deal if you don't?

To be fair, Ryan Macklin *did* come off rather hard on third-party products not using the proper capitalization:

http://ryanmacklin.com/2013/11/fate-misconceptions-and-aspect-spamming/

I think that was more like "hey, we've just got this big popularity boost, and if you're throwing Fate on a product without being involved in the community enough to know that the capitalization has changed, or to even care enough to look at the official guidelines, you're probably not actually concerned about putting out a quality *Fate* product."  But a lot of people took it wrong.

There was also some small kerfluffle when Evil Hate made their dice and branded them "Fate Dice", though they had talked with Grey Ghost about that decision before they announced it.

Quote from: robiswrong;727126To be fair, Ryan Macklin *did* come off rather hard on third-party products not using the proper capitalization:

http://ryanmacklin.com/2013/11/fate-misconceptions-and-aspect-spamming/

I think that was more like "hey, we've just got this big popularity boost, and if you're throwing Fate on a product without being involved in the community enough to know that the capitalization has changed, or to even care enough to look at the official guidelines, you're probably not actually concerned about putting out a quality *Fate* product."  But a lot of people took it wrong.

There was also some small kerfluffle when Evil Hate made their dice and branded them "Fate Dice", though they had talked with Grey Ghost about that decision before they announced it.

Wow. There might be some good advice in there, but this reads like that old Gygax post/letter where he was complaining people were putting too much Roleplaying into his Wargame, except with added bitching that if you write d&d or DnD you are probably stealing from him.

Smugness and pedantry make for a poor mix.

Quote from: Rincewind1;727136Wow. There might be some good advice in there, but this reads like that old Gygax post/letter where he was complaining people were putting too much Roleplaying into his Wargame, except with added bitching that if you write d&d or DnD you are probably stealing from him.

Smugness and pedantry make for a poor mix.

Pretty much.  And there *is* good advice in there, but the presentation is pretty damn off-putting.

I mean, instead of:

QuoteAlso, if you acronym-ize "Fate" in a third-party  product, I'm going to assume that you're either a joke or someone who isn't a part of the Fate community trying to leech off of it.

Wouldn't it be a lot better to say something like:

QuoteAnd if you're looking at third party products, and see that they capitalize "FATE" the old way, it might be worth thinking about how much they've actually researched the game, given that anyone from Evil Hat is consistent about its use, and that the new capitalization is predominantly part of our official guidelines.

I mean, they both say the same thing.  The second one is much more clear in who they're *not* targeting, as well as inviting the reader to make a judgement rather than just calling people a "joke... or leech".