If I may suggest a possible resolution here, I think the point of the rape-vs.-sex analogy is to observe that in Exalted it is very easy for in-game conflicts to become about solely who has more power (in terms of who has more Essence, higher stats and a better array of Charms with which to use it) than it is to be about who can actually use what power they have more cleverly in order to overcome superficially stronger foes.

Part of the reason this happens is, ironically, simply because Exalted's rules and setting offer so much in the way of a variety of in-game tactical rules options for players that predicting how to best combine them for most efficient outcome becomes prohibitively difficult, and thus less rewarding in play. (This also applies to GMs as well, who sometimes find that in order to pose any threat to a well-balanced Circle of moderately competent PCs you simply have to, to quote Order of The Stick, "pull a Xykon" -- deploy such an overwhelming degree of force that no array of clever PC combined-asset tactics can prevail against it.)

Thinking out loud as I type this, I might ensure that an Exalted rules redesign had a strong element of "rock-paper-scissors" in it -- not something literally that simple, but something oriented around the idea that there are multiple types of power and each type has its own separate vulnerability, the challenge being to figure out and play the best trump option before getting taken down by someone doing the same to you.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 01:48:06 AM
If I may suggest a possible resolution here, I think the point of the rape-vs.-sex analogy is to observe that in Exalted it is very easy for in-game conflicts to become about solely who has more power (in terms of who has more Essence, higher stats and a better array of Charms with which to use it) than it is to be about who can actually use what power they have more cleverly in order to overcome superficially stronger foes.

Part of the reason this happens is, ironically, simply because Exalted's rules and setting offer so much in the way of a variety of in-game tactical rules options for players that predicting how to best combine them for most efficient outcome becomes prohibitively difficult, and thus less rewarding in play. (This also applies to GMs as well, who sometimes find that in order to pose any threat to a well-balanced Circle of moderately competent PCs you simply have to, to quote Order of The Stick, "pull a Xykon" -- deploy such an overwhelming degree of force that no array of clever PC combined-asset tactics can prevail against it.)

Thinking out loud as I type this, I might ensure that an Exalted rules redesign had a strong element of "rock-paper-scissors" in it -- not something literally that simple, but something oriented around the idea that there are multiple types of power and each type has its own separate vulnerability, the challenge being to figure out and play the best trump option before getting taken down by someone doing the same to you.

I read 'Exalted is to ordinary RPGs what rape is to sex' as an unwarranted insult on one of my favorite settings (in the same way I would say Forgotten Realms is a neckbeard's wet dream. I mean, I don't like Forgotten Realms but I would never say that to a fan's face, directly), which I did not take kindly to. I overreacted back there, and it was my fault. Should have ignored him.

Anyway, your idea sounds good, although since I never played Exalted's house system (information overload) I can't know for sure.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 01:21:06 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 01:15:11 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 01:11:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 01:08:51 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 12:38:31 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!

So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!

I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.

And why do you think that? Exalted is a non-Tolkienian fantasy based on power and its consequences, not power fantasies. Granted, White Wolf/Onyx Path did muddle it up a bit but it's better than most RPG settings ever made. That's not an easy thing to accomplish.

If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't compare it to rape.

You need to improve your reading comprehension.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies.

There are a lot better non-Tolkienian fantasy settings out there, Exalted's doesn't even come close to being really, really good. I would not defile any game system worthy of playing with such a piece of crap as Exalted's setting. Again, Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex.

Everything you said is wrong.

So you claim.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 01:11:51 AM
Source: I made it the fuck up

That much is obvious.

It's the truth! Because I said so. Don't like it? Kill self.

EDIT: And by kill self I mean kill myself. You. Kill me. Sorry, my head hurts and it's late where I'm at.

Kill you? Because you think Exalted is really, really good?

No. That you believe Exalted is really, really good is punishment enough.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:01:15 AM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 01:48:06 AM
If I may suggest a possible resolution here, I think the point of the rape-vs.-sex analogy is to observe that in Exalted it is very easy for in-game conflicts to become about solely who has more power (in terms of who has more Essence, higher stats and a better array of Charms with which to use it) than it is to be about who can actually use what power they have more cleverly in order to overcome superficially stronger foes.

Part of the reason this happens is, ironically, simply because Exalted's rules and setting offer so much in the way of a variety of in-game tactical rules options for players that predicting how to best combine them for most efficient outcome becomes prohibitively difficult, and thus less rewarding in play. (This also applies to GMs as well, who sometimes find that in order to pose any threat to a well-balanced Circle of moderately competent PCs you simply have to, to quote Order of The Stick, "pull a Xykon" -- deploy such an overwhelming degree of force that no array of clever PC combined-asset tactics can prevail against it.)

Thinking out loud as I type this, I might ensure that an Exalted rules redesign had a strong element of "rock-paper-scissors" in it -- not something literally that simple, but something oriented around the idea that there are multiple types of power and each type has its own separate vulnerability, the challenge being to figure out and play the best trump option before getting taken down by someone doing the same to you.

I read 'Exalted is to ordinary RPGs what rape is to sex' as an unwarranted insult on one of my favorite settings (in the same way I would say Forgotten Realms is a neckbeard's wet dream. I mean, I don't like Forgotten Realms but I would never say that to a fan's face, directly), which I did not take kindly to. I overreacted back there, and it was my fault. Should have ignored him.

Anyway, your idea sounds good, although since I never played Exalted's house system (information overload) I can't know for sure.

Forgettable Realms is almost as bad as the Exalted setting.

How can you opine on Exalted if you have never played it?

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 03:48:20 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:01:15 AM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 01:48:06 AM
If I may suggest a possible resolution here, I think the point of the rape-vs.-sex analogy is to observe that in Exalted it is very easy for in-game conflicts to become about solely who has more power (in terms of who has more Essence, higher stats and a better array of Charms with which to use it) than it is to be about who can actually use what power they have more cleverly in order to overcome superficially stronger foes.

Part of the reason this happens is, ironically, simply because Exalted's rules and setting offer so much in the way of a variety of in-game tactical rules options for players that predicting how to best combine them for most efficient outcome becomes prohibitively difficult, and thus less rewarding in play. (This also applies to GMs as well, who sometimes find that in order to pose any threat to a well-balanced Circle of moderately competent PCs you simply have to, to quote Order of The Stick, "pull a Xykon" -- deploy such an overwhelming degree of force that no array of clever PC combined-asset tactics can prevail against it.)

Thinking out loud as I type this, I might ensure that an Exalted rules redesign had a strong element of "rock-paper-scissors" in it -- not something literally that simple, but something oriented around the idea that there are multiple types of power and each type has its own separate vulnerability, the challenge being to figure out and play the best trump option before getting taken down by someone doing the same to you.

I read 'Exalted is to ordinary RPGs what rape is to sex' as an unwarranted insult on one of my favorite settings (in the same way I would say Forgotten Realms is a neckbeard's wet dream. I mean, I don't like Forgotten Realms but I would never say that to a fan's face, directly), which I did not take kindly to. I overreacted back there, and it was my fault. Should have ignored him.

Anyway, your idea sounds good, although since I never played Exalted's house system (information overload) I can't know for sure.

Forgettable Realms is almost as bad as the Exalted setting.

How can you opine on Exalted if you have never played it?

I kinda have to agree with jeff here. Forgotten Realms is a lot like my handle on these forums.

Likewise, I feel like the mechanics of a system tie in pretty strongly to its place within a setting and the setting itself. So I would recommend you maybe try a game if you get the chance, just to see how Exalted plays.

(Would recommend maybe 2e if you like powers and gameplay that match with the lore. As well as Exalted lore in general. Though NGL there's a lot in just the core books, to say nothing of how much can be read via supplements and interpreted as hidden implied lore. Very modular character design, though, so it's easy to build a jack of all trades master of none  if you get greedy and try to do everything, and reasonably easy to get confused or lost.)

Welcome to the site, MeganovaStella!

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really f***ing good.

Out of curiosity, what do you like about it so much, specifically? I don't dislike it myself -- although as you may have guessed from my comments I think the game does have weaknesses -- but I am always interested to hear people drill down on the positives.  What kind of conflicts and adventures play out better in Creation than anywhere else, as a starting point?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 11:45:43 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really f***ing good.

Out of curiosity, what do you like about it so much, specifically? I don't dislike it myself -- although as you may have guessed from my comments I think the game does have weaknesses -- but I am always interested to hear people drill down on the positives.

The epic scale of the setting (you can punch gods in the face as a starting Exalt...). The kitchen sink aspect (Norse, pseudo-Aztec, Arabian, Chinese, Persian, giant robots, dinosaurs, and so on). The weirdness, the large scale, the detail, the originality, and so on.

[/quote]

What kind of conflicts and adventures play out better in Creation than anywhere else, as a starting point?
[/quote]

Conflicts based around what the Exalts do with their power, because that is the main conceit of the game. Conflicts based around invading supernatural forces while the Exalts fall to their own hubris (just a thing i threw out there). Underdog Mortal v Exalt/God/Demon/Fair Folk stories. You could technically do the same with a standard DND setting but Exalted makes it so that the PCs (and selected NPCs) are more special, which makes it easier to swallow that these people are going on adventures and saving the region, IMO (because they are supernatural badasses and everyone else is normies).

Quote from: KindaMeh on July 03, 2022, 11:37:56 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 03:48:20 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:01:15 AM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 01:48:06 AM
If I may suggest a possible resolution here, I think the point of the rape-vs.-sex analogy is to observe that in Exalted it is very easy for in-game conflicts to become about solely who has more power (in terms of who has more Essence, higher stats and a better array of Charms with which to use it) than it is to be about who can actually use what power they have more cleverly in order to overcome superficially stronger foes.

Part of the reason this happens is, ironically, simply because Exalted's rules and setting offer so much in the way of a variety of in-game tactical rules options for players that predicting how to best combine them for most efficient outcome becomes prohibitively difficult, and thus less rewarding in play. (This also applies to GMs as well, who sometimes find that in order to pose any threat to a well-balanced Circle of moderately competent PCs you simply have to, to quote Order of The Stick, "pull a Xykon" -- deploy such an overwhelming degree of force that no array of clever PC combined-asset tactics can prevail against it.)

Thinking out loud as I type this, I might ensure that an Exalted rules redesign had a strong element of "rock-paper-scissors" in it -- not something literally that simple, but something oriented around the idea that there are multiple types of power and each type has its own separate vulnerability, the challenge being to figure out and play the best trump option before getting taken down by someone doing the same to you.

I read 'Exalted is to ordinary RPGs what rape is to sex' as an unwarranted insult on one of my favorite settings (in the same way I would say Forgotten Realms is a neckbeard's wet dream. I mean, I don't like Forgotten Realms but I would never say that to a fan's face, directly), which I did not take kindly to. I overreacted back there, and it was my fault. Should have ignored him.

Anyway, your idea sounds good, although since I never played Exalted's house system (information overload) I can't know for sure.

Forgettable Realms is almost as bad as the Exalted setting.

How can you opine on Exalted if you have never played it?

I kinda have to agree with jeff here. Forgotten Realms is a lot like my handle on these forums.

Likewise, I feel like the mechanics of a system tie in pretty strongly to its place within a setting and the setting itself. So I would recommend you maybe try a game if you get the chance, just to see how Exalted plays.

(Would recommend maybe 2e if you like powers and gameplay that match with the lore. As well as Exalted lore in general. Though NGL there's a lot in just the core books, to say nothing of how much can be read via supplements and interpreted as hidden implied lore. Very modular character design, though, so it's easy to build a jack of all trades master of none  if you get greedy and try to do everything, and reasonably easy to get confused or lost.)

Welcome to the site, MeganovaStella!

Well, I have all the books (via PDF form on my hard drive), I just don't have people to play it. My friends on Discord struggle to learn Godbound, let alone Exalted 2nd.

'Out of curiosity, what do you like about it so much, specifically? I don't dislike it myself -- although as you may have guessed from my comments I think the game does have weaknesses -- but I am always interested to hear people drill down on the positives.'

The epic scale of the setting (you can punch gods in the face as a starting Exalt...). The kitchen sink aspect (Norse, pseudo-Aztec, Arabian, Chinese, Persian, giant robots, dinosaurs, and so on). The weirdness, the large scale, the detail, the originality, and so on.


'What kind of conflicts and adventures play out better in Creation than anywhere else, as a starting point?'

Conflicts based around what the Exalts do with their power, because that is the main conceit of the game. Conflicts based around invading supernatural forces while the Exalts fall to their own hubris (just a thing i threw out there). Underdog Mortal v Exalt/God/Demon/Fair Folk stories. You could technically do the same with a standard DND setting but Exalted makes it so that the PCs (and selected NPCs) are more special, which makes it easier to swallow that these people are going on adventures and saving the region, IMO (because they are supernatural badasses and everyone else is normies).


'I kinda have to agree with jeff here. Forgotten Realms is a lot like my handle on these forums.

Likewise, I feel like the mechanics of a system tie in pretty strongly to its place within a setting and the setting itself. So I would recommend you maybe try a game if you get the chance, just to see how Exalted plays.

(Would recommend maybe 2e if you like powers and gameplay that match with the lore. As well as Exalted lore in general. Though NGL there's a lot in just the core books, to say nothing of how much can be read via supplements and interpreted as hidden implied lore. Very modular character design, though, so it's easy to build a jack of all trades master of none  if you get greedy and try to do everything, and reasonably easy to get confused or lost.)

Welcome to the site, MeganovaStella!'


Well, I have all the books (via PDF form on my hard drive), I just don't have people to play it. My friends on Discord struggle to learn Godbound, let alone Exalted 2nd.


Quote feature wasn't working for me.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!

So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!

I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.

Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!

So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!

I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.

Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.

Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:10:16 PM
Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

......Seriously? You that insecure?

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 03:48:20 AMHow can you opine on Exalted if you have never played it?

I think Exalted as a setting sucks (for the most part), but I don't think its the 'Equivalent to Rape'. Your being a douche to people that are being genuine and just asking for advice. All fantasy has a degree of escapism to it. Unless your into masochism or just love to bore yourself intentionally. Or are Alan Moore. Are you Alan moore?

As for the system.... Well I think Stephen has it covered in that the main point is: what do you want the mechanics to underpin?
I find Exalted can't decide if it wants to be Anime, Wuxia, or high level dulledry. I think its best to focus on one of those things.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2022, 02:16:00 PM
I find Exalted can't decide if it wants to be Anime, Wuxia, or high level dulledry. I think its best to focus on one of those things.

You draw a distinction that intrigues me. How would you distinguish between Anime and Wuxia, in the context of designing/finding a game suited to evoking one or the other?  (I ask as the typical non-fan of both, to whom they superficially seem to have a lot of overlap.)

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:10:16 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!

So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!

I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.

Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.

Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

> immediately brings up wifebeating in a thread about a fantasy setting

> after insulting the OP

Don't people get threadbanned for this?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 02:39:07 PMYou draw a distinction that intrigues me. How would you distinguish between Anime and Wuxia, in the context of designing/finding a game suited to evoking one or the other?  (I ask as the typical non-fan of both, to whom they superficially seem to have a lot of overlap.)

I find Wuxia more mythological and Anime more superheroes. In Myth a crazy thing just happens as a matter of abstraction (Hero God can just move an ocean), while Superheroics are superficially more grounded (Superhero uses a device to teleport ocean away).

It has crossover, but I would say feels different.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:41:45 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:10:16 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!

So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!

I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.

Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.

Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

> immediately brings up wifebeating in a thread about a fantasy setting

> after insulting the OP

Don't people get threadbanned for this?

Thankfully, not here.

Here, you may post that my behavior towards you has been that of a spoiled child whose head has been shoved so far up my ass that I will never see daylight. You may say that I am bully, a coward, a festering piece of shit, or a leftist democrat whose taste in games is equivalent to sex with animals. You could even call me a Storygamer or a Social Justice Warrior without repercussion.

This is Free Speech at its finest.