Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1023909I'm not really a wargamer - no experience there - I just wanted something to simplify a 75 vs 125 figure combat.

By the end of the year I should hopefully have the last of the medical debt paid off, and after that I'll allow myself the occasional gaming splurge.

I posted this on another site. It's simple, easy and best of all, free of charge:

QuoteA very quick and dirty way I handle mass combat requires a bunch of six-sided dice. Roll one die for each combatant (I throw a bunch at a time). Every 6 is a hit, destroying 1 hit die of the enemy. For every hit die over 1, add +1 to the roll. Creatures and characters can take as many hits as they have hit dice. Creatures with multiple attacks roll that many times.

After that, you might want to add adjustments for things like cover, position, superior/inferior tactics and other things having to do with the scenario. For example, I had one battle with hobgoblins taking on human militia. Since hobs are much better than 0-level humans overall, I ruled that they scored hits on a 5 or 6, but unlike true 2 HD monsters, they could only take one hit.

The defender normally chooses losses.

Just draw up the units and the terrain on a piece of paper or dry erase board, then decide on adjustments (if any). Have each side roll initiative -highest roll goes first or can choose to wait. If one roll is more than double the opponent's roll, the side with the higher roll can go first/wait OR select enemy losses with up to 25% the hits scored. A 3-1 initiative roll allows up to half your hits to be used on your choice of targets (note that this is by troop type -individuals can't be targeted unless they are conspicuous in some way)..

Quote from: David Johansen;1023919With larger units, formations are possible.  A block is the standard formation and must sacrifice half of its movement to turn.  A square or circle moves at half speed but has no flank or rear.  A column has a narrow front but can move along winding roads and scenery at full speed where a block would have to slow and turn.

Really good advice, but this stuff is lost gold. B)

Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1023909I'm not really a wargamer - no experience there - I just wanted something to simplify a 75 vs 125 figure combat.

By the end of the year I should hopefully have the last of the medical debt paid off, and after that I'll allow myself the occasional gaming splurge.

Well, if you want a more abstract system that is simple and focuses on the player characters, rather than something more like a wargame, Dark Albion has a mass combat system. If purchasing Dark Albion will be too expensive for you, in a few weeks I'll be releasing an issue of RPGPundit Presents which will cover the Domain Management and Mass-Combat rules from Dark Albion, and will probably cost about $2.99.

Quote from: estar;1023752I prefer AD&D 1st Edition Battlesystem for any edition of D&D because the heart of it is a combot result table that abstracts the effect of X guys with Y chance of hitting with Z damage with a single 2d6 dice roll.

I tried figuring out the math behind the chart and made a series of post on the effort.

The 1e version was certainly good. I enjoyed it quite a bit and even used it with the Buck Rogers XXVc RPG for fleet vs fleet combat using ships. I'll certainly take a look at your notes and see if I can unearth some underlying mechanics.

The D&D BECMI Warmachine rules (fields of battle, sieges and domain rules) can be found in Dark Dungeons. Which is totally free as pdf.

Quote from: Teodrik;1024706The D&D BECMI Warmachine rules (fields of battle, sieges and domain rules) can be found in Dark Dungeons. Which is totally free as pdf.

LOL, I totally didn't realize that, and I have that book in print sitting on my shelf. Truth be told, I do default to that over Battlesystem most of the time, even in 1e. I should read through it again. I usually just grab the rules Cyclopedia because it's there. Oh and Link to Dark Dungeon on OBS.

After the fallout from yesterday's session, I figured some of you may have been curious as to how things played out.

Okay, I know, none of you were actually curious.  Shut up, I'm going to tell you anyways.

So, the setup: in a previous adventure, the PC's were exploring a tomb, and managed to deduce that prying loose the embedded circlet that would have given them access to the tomb's treasure would also have freed the Skeleton Warrior buried there, as well as the other undead in stasis in the nearby cemetery.  Reluctantly, they left well enough alone.

More recently, they discovered that the nearby elves have been playing a long game at humanity's expense: having the forested borderlands slowly encroach on human territories in the last two centuriess since the plague, using various patsies (including the PC'S) to get rid of foes and threats that they didn't want to directly confront, using shapeshifting magics to infiltrate nearby human societies, and increase tensions so that humans would fight each other instead of advancing into what the elves think of as their lands.

So, the PC'S decide to try to remove the two threats by setting them against each other.  They go back to the tomb, steal the circlet, and quickly vamoose.  Not too long afterwards, the M-U with the aid of a Polymorph Self spell manages to hide the circlet just outside the far side of the elven tree-fortress, ensuring that the Skeleton Warrior and his various undead minions (mostly regular skeletons, with a few wights thrown in for good measure) would encounter the elves.  Properly guaging how long it will take the undead to make it to the elven home, the PC'S make their preparations and proceed to watch the battle via a crystal ball.

The elves meet for battle outside of their tree-fortress,  hoping to keep their few elven young safe inside away from battle.  In terms of pure numbers, the elves outnumber the dead by a 5 to 3 ratio... but it doesn't really matter, as a SW causes anyone with 4 HD or less to flee in fear, which means about 97% of their forces turn tail and run back into their fortress, followed by the skeletons and all but one of the wights.  Once inside (and out of direct sight of the SW) I give the rank-and-file elves a morale check, which they make, deciding to defend the fort and their young.

At this point we start rolling dice proper, using the By This Poleaxe rules, with the players rolling for the undead and me rolling for the elves.  It takes a while to play out; the upshot being that inside the tree-fortress the skeletons and wights are all destroyed, but with massive casualties to elves (not counting the young only a half-dozen of their number remaining).  Outside, the elves managed to destroy the remaining wight, but the SW's 90% magic resistance was too tough a nut to crack, and all of the high-level elves eventually fall.

Even though they orchestrated this carnage, the players decided that leaving the elf younglings to the non-existent mercy of the Skeleton Warrior was too much of a Moral Event Horizon for them, and so a couple of Reduce spells and a Teleport scroll later, they show up at the battle site to try to finish off the SW.

At that point we switch to standard AD&D play.  I rule that the SW's hit points have been reduced by half, but it's still a tough slog for them - in part because of that 90% magic resistance, but also because the cleric has lost all access to her spells (go figure, the diety of light and life was kinda pissed that her LG follower was party to letting loose a greater undead upon the land).  They eventually win, but not before the halfling fighter/thief gets killed.

Aftermath: the PC'S get away (not much the few remaining elves could do to stop them, to be honest).  The M-U later sneaks back to retrieve the circlet so she can destroy it.  The survivors pay to get the halfling Raised.  The cleric now has to go on a major quest of atonement, which her comrades have chosen to accompany her on.



I love my players.

Quote from: S'mon;1023779Basically the GM uses a mix of common sense, knowledge of the D&D game stats, and chance, to resolve player & NPC actions, typically on a 3-10 minute cycle depending on battle scale. Meanwhile PC personal combat is resolved using the standard rules, and will affect their side's chances on the d6 checks.

THIS is what I recommend beyond any mass combat I've ever seen in any RPG.

Morale is extremely important. Humans do not like to die, and actively avoid it. Other races may or may not hold the same opinion. AKA, elves may bail on fights to live another day and have awesome escape tactics, while dwarves may never surrender and cultural worship of last stands. Orcs may be psycho-suicidal or glass cannons, aka your Orcs might berserk into mindless machines who can't change tactics (or even direction), but never give up, or your Orcs could be bully cowards who run away the moment they aren't winning the battle.

All of that is dependent on your campaign.

I also highly recommend watching some mass battle scenese on YouTube so you can see the ebb and flow of how directors show us the close combat of heroes vs. the mass combat vs. the decisions of generals vs. the movement of the masses.

Also, if its siege or army on the march, please consider how logistics are handled as well. There are LOTS of adventure ideas in the pre and post battle days.

Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1025194I love my players.

They sound awesome!

The political fallout (both earthly and divine) of this event are going to be terrific for campaign drama.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1025198Morale is extremely important. Humans do not like to die, and actively avoid it.

Yep! The trick is to give them an (apparent) way to not die.

In my game yesterday mighty Shieldbiter the winged dragonborn PC (Barbarian-17) & his three NPC companions - Sarene the Pirate Queen, Steelclaw the Dragonborn and Helga the Hoplite - were in big trouble after their war wyvern was shot down over the Isles of Ethereal Bells by the small army of Skandik pirates they were attempting to recruit; they took cover from the arrow storm in a small wood, then hid as the pirate army entered the wood to flush them out...
Things looked grim, but the 'heroes' managed to stay in cover until Shieldbiter spotted Frith the enemy commander, charged and killed him. The 'heroes' attacked, killed a few pirates, the veteran pirates fighting back fiercely.  We played it out on a big Paizo forest battlemat, with dozens of pirate & viking type minis for the Skandiks. There was no way Shieldbiter's four were likely to defeat the 79 savage foes, but with repeated 'We want you to join us!' cries, and no 'heroes' going down (though it was close) by the time Frith & 14 of his men lay dead among the trees, the remain 64 vikings decided that jaw-jaw was better than war-war. Soon the Skandik horde were recruited and Sarene had added an eighth ship to her war fleet.

Conversely if Shieldbiter had been determined to kill every Skandik the battle would have raged for hours, he might well have lost, and certainly his companions would have perished.

The secret to success here (apart from taking cover & hiding) was that they quickly killed the enemy leader, who the pirates feared more than their enemy, then killed the first guy who popped up and said "I'm the leader now!", while making clear the Skandiks had a better option than fighting to the death. The rear 50 or so Skandiks weren't in great danger, but the ones actually in melee were getting wary of dying, and decided they had little reason to do so.

As Sun Tzu says, always leave your enemy a path for retreat.  Most armies break and run at about 30% casualties.  Let them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1025319As Sun Tzu says, always leave your enemy a path for retreat.  Most armies break and run at about 30% casualties.  Let them.

I often remind players that fleeing is an option. Sometimes encounters are not scaled to balance to the party, meaning those who like to charge headlong into stupidity could have a very bad day. Remember, he who fights and runs away, lives to run another day.

Sounds like a very good session!