Remember the Belcerebons of Kakrafoon Kappa. The solution to the curse of telepathy is to have a Disaster Area concert.

The events in X-Men/Micronauts was more than mass murder. It had acts of active rape against minors committed by the evil version of Professor Xavier. Including against Professor X's adopted daughter. Danielle Moonstar. It was graphic and horrifying.

I never found the excuse that it was just an evil version of the Professor acceptable. The Professor mind-wiped everyone involved in an attempt to cover up the deed. It was outright mind-rape by a supposed heroic figure to cover up most of the evidence. It was not heroic by any definition.

Marvel seems to have enshrined this story in its canon. And I find it disgusting. That's where I stopped seeing Professor X as a heroic figure.

Onslaught was born of that same evil part of Professor X. A part of him that could never die because the source of that evil was an etched in part of his soul.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1022388The events in X-Men/Micronauts was more than mass murder. It had acts of active rape against minors committed by the evil version of Professor Xavier. Including against Professor X's adopted daughter. Danielle Moonstar. It was graphic and horrifying.

I never found the excuse that it was just an evil version of the Professor acceptable. The Professor mind-wiped everyone involved in an attempt to cover up the deed. It was outright mind-rape by a supposed heroic figure to cover up most of the evidence. It was not heroic by any definition.

Marvel seems to have enshrined this story in its canon. And I find it disgusting. That's where I stopped seeing Professor X as a heroic figure.

Onslaught was born of that same evil part of Professor X. A part of him that could never die because the source of that evil was an etched in part of his soul.

Um... what the fuck version of that comic did you read?

Quote from: Omega;1022478Um... what the fuck version of that comic did you read?

I owned that limited series. I read it directly.

You shouldn't use Wikipedia for comics summaries. They get a lot of said comics stories factually wrong. And are based only on the interpretation of the person who writes the Wikipedia entry. Which is often, heavily watered down.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1022269I had a player in one of the early Champions campaigns I played in who liked using the other characters in the group as puppets. And who liked actually countering the decisions other players made with their mind control powers. From a player's point of view, it destroyed the experience of playing one's own character. And eventually the player got thrown out of the group due to that and other social problems.

Sounds like a messed up player more than any innate issue with the abilities. I've seen similar issues arise from abilities ranging from social skills (a tendency which IMO, lead to the animosity many players feel towards them and that allot game avoid by outlawing them, to working on other PCs) to just being the physically toughest or magically powerful. Any power can be abused.

Quote from: Omega;1022478Um... what the fuck version of that comic did you read?

Check his earlier posts. Make up your own mind about him. But I am surprised this thread stayed as grounded as did for as long as did.

I haven't read the X-Men / Micronauts, but in X-Men and New Mutants I have seen many cases where Professor X reads the inner thoughts of his students and even changes their thoughts - ostensibly for their own good. I also found his character thoroughly despicable.

I do think there are a ton of inherent issues in telepathy, and a number of RPG sources have interesting looks at these. The Zhodani from Traveller are an interesting example. They literally have thought police - but they are seen as largely benevolent, like the friendly beat cop who discourages crime and such.

In games, ethical issues has rarely been a major problem for me. Usually game telepathy requires some sort of attack roll - making it expressly an offensive power, and players generally use it only against active opponents (i.e. villains who are attacking them). Plus, my feelings on the subject may spill over into games.

Still, a long time ago in a futuristic superhero campaign, I had a character who was waging a secret campaign of assassination against the evil world government they were opposing. Many of his top targets were telepaths and mind controllers - as important steps in any secret campaign. He even had a contingency plan to kill a fellow PC telepath. Late in the campaign, the GM gave her a note that she accidentally read his mind and saw his plans to kill her - so she tried to kill him. I felt like this justified his having the plan in the first place. She tried to kill him for thinking of something he might do in the future. The other PCs were on her side, though, so I retired him and he went off to become an NPC.

Quote from: jhkim;1022680I haven't read the X-Men / Micronauts, but in X-Men and New Mutants I have seen many cases where Professor X reads the inner thoughts of his students and even changes their thoughts - ostensibly for their own good. I also found his character thoroughly despicable.

I haven't always agreed with his calls but I've found does think about the ethics and repercussions of what he does and doesn't do so casually or for his own reward or amusement. That is under most writers. I think every character in comics sometimes seems to have MPD when their writer changes or they have lengthy runs. Look at how different Superman and Batmam even the Joker has changed over the years, for example. But I've generally found Xavier positive despite having some of the most tempting to abuse power sets in the genre.

QuoteI do think there are a ton of inherent issues in telepathy, and a number of RPG sources have interesting looks at these. The Zhodani from Traveller are an interesting example. They literally have thought police - but they are seen as largely benevolent, like the friendly beat cop who discourages crime and such.

I don't think the issues are inherent as in this power or having this ability or even using it are automatically bad things. Like any enhanced ability or superhuman being it can be abused, put to immoral , neutral beneficial or criminal use. Psionics is not different to my mind except being high on  potentially corrupting scale. With great power etc etc...

QuoteIn games, ethical issues has rarely been a major problem for me. Usually game telepathy requires some sort of attack roll - making it expressly an offensive power, and players generally use it only against active opponents (i.e. villains who are attacking them). Plus, my feelings on the subject may spill over into games.

Still, a long time ago in a futuristic superhero campaign, I had a character who was waging a secret campaign of assassination against the evil world government they were opposing. Many of his top targets were telepaths and mind controllers - as important steps in any secret campaign. He even had a contingency plan to kill a fellow PC telepath. Late in the campaign, the GM gave her a note that she accidentally read his mind and saw his plans to kill her - so she tried to kill him. I felt like this justified his having the plan in the first place. She tried to kill him for thinking of something he might do in the future. The other PCs were on her side, though, so I retired him and he went off to become an NPC.

But  wan't your character has come up with plans to kill her not just because of what she might do, but because of what she was.  I would be highly antagonistic towards someone that went so far as to make plans to murder me not because of what I did but for what I was. Making thought out plans to kill someone in case isn't a great thing to do. Imagine finding out a colleagues had made plans to kill you in cold blood if you do something they feel  is wrong  or becomes necessary in their opinion because of your ethnicity or some other innate factor of what you are. That would horrify or piss almost anyone off.

Immediately trying to kill him right back was an off  reaction but it is in line with PCs (where deadly violence is often way to casually and immediately resorted too) And This case sounds like GM just did it stir the pot since he passed her note that said she accidentally read his mind unless that's somehow possible in the game system. Otoh  how does the Telepathic PC present their side without it getting meta on all sides.

Sounds like neither PC handled it or was handled particularly well and like most Intra PC conflict it got at least a little metagame personal OOC. At the very least in rpg logic as wonky as it was it seems like both PCs had ample reason to want to do each other in. And that it might have been the gms intent which was a dick move by the gm. Was that kind of relationship between the PC s part of the game?

A more realistic or at least rational reaction might have been to call out the assassin out. OTOH, there's no easy way to prove his plans even exist unless her accidental discovery revealed material means as well. It almost sounds like the plot of a thriller. Similar scenarios have come up in comics "Oh I came up with ways, plans, means to kill you because you're a psi, mutant, alien, really power, etc... you never know. Why are you so mad?" It can be dramatic but I think those sort of things are better either worked out with players before hand or to come up 'naturally' over the course of the game not egineered by the gm. It feels heavy handed. But then again, a secret that never comes to light is wasted in fiction and rpgs. On the gripping hand, IME Murderous intra PC conflict rarely ends well unless that's what everyone signed on for. Its important to discuss that sort of thing before the game begins.

Quote from: jhkim;1022680..... He even had a contingency plan to kill a fellow PC telepath. Late in the campaign, the GM gave her a note that she accidentally read his mind and saw his plans to kill her - so she tried to kill him. I felt like this justified his having the plan in the first place. She tried to kill him for thinking of something he might do in the future. The other PCs were on her side, though, so I retired him and he went off to become an NPC.

Like I said, nuke'em from orbit.  Nuke'em all.

Telepathy/Mind-Reading has always given me migraines in games. Depending on the system, it can be too easy for a PC to basically get you to give them the write up for the adventure. Justifying every major villain having some form of mind shield can get just as difficult. Mental powers can work in comics because the writer has full control over them and what they can and can't do, as well as when they get used. Putting them in the hands of a player, however, opens up a whole new can of worms. I would generally allow for surface thoughts and emotions to be sensed relatively easily, but reading a hostile, resisting target would be harder, and the difficulty would ramp up the deeper you try and go.

Quote from: The Black Ferret;1022807Telepathy/Mind-Reading has always given me migraines in games. Depending on the system, it can be too easy for a PC to basically get you to give them the write up for the adventure. Justifying every major villain having some form of mind shield can get just as difficult. Mental powers can work in comics because the writer has full control over them and what they can and can't do, as well as when they get used. Putting them in the hands of a player, however, opens up a whole new can of worms. I would generally allow for surface thoughts and emotions to be sensed relatively easily, but reading a hostile, resisting target would be harder, and the difficulty would ramp up the deeper you try and go.

Telepathy and other psionics can also can also cause the netrunner problem. A character being in another realm completely disconnected realm from the other characters. And it's just plain unfair to make the other players wait around uninvolved while the one astral crawling character faces all of the action solo.

analogy for my opinion is that its like a society of blind where occasionally though some fluke some are born with sight. They have a large advantage over most in many ways (includong the ability to spy and conspire in ways the bulk of society can't and possibly can't concieve of).

I complelely understand why some of majority would feel disturbed by their existence and even suspicious of the Sighed and their extra sense, and jealous which rarely leads anywhere good. I probably would too if I was in there situation. But I wouldn't feel it was right if that society either exiled, impriseoned or exiled the Sighted or require their eyes be gouged out before they've done anything.

Quote from: The Black Ferret;1022807Telepathy/Mind-Reading has always given me migraines in games. Depending on the system, it can be too easy for a PC to basically get you to give them the write up for the adventure. Justifying every major villain having some form of mind shield can get just as difficult. Mental powers can work in comics because the writer has full control over them and what they can and can't do, as well as when they get used. Putting them in the hands of a player, however, opens up a whole new can of worms. I would generally allow for surface thoughts and emotions to be sensed relatively easily, but reading a hostile, resisting target would be harder, and the difficulty would ramp up the deeper you try and go.

Moving away from the mind field of personal ethics regarding imaginary abilities, Mental powers can make handling mysteries a chore. Its important to keep track of relatively minor details in some cases like who was actually there for exactly what and what imoressions (real or otherwise) they might have gotten (people don't always remember things accurately. Memory is very volitale and fragile particularly over time and with emotion. Two people can have entirely different recollections of the same event. Which makes it a bit less of a pain than many forms of Retrocognition.

Quote from: CarlD.;1022813Moving away from the mind field of personal ethics regarding imaginary abilities, Mental powers can make handling mysteries a chore. Its important to keep track of relatively minor details in some cases like who was actually there for exactly what and what imoressions (real or otherwise) they might have gotten (people don't always remember things accurately. Memory is very volitale and fragile particularly over time and with emotion. Two people can have entirely different recollections of the same event. Which makes it a bit less of a pain than many forms of Retrocognition.

Remember that Batman movie with Heath Ledger as the Joker, and how he robbed the bank at the beginning of the movie? All of his minions were fed just enough information to play out their part of the plan with no idea what anyone else was doing. A good bad villain can use this to their advantage, using expendable pawns to forward a plan without any of them even knowing what the plan is. In fact, no one even knew who the Joker was until he introduced himself. He could have kept doing what he was doing, and a telepath would be really hard pressed to figure out why all this chaos was happening. Even if a telepath reads psychic impressions, that might still not give any useful information away. I'd go even a step further and have most of the hired help not even know who they are really working for. Use expendable proxies as go betweens who let their guard down because the boss just have them a promotion, and make sure their bodies are cold by the time the mind reader gets near them.

I do like your point about people having different recollections of the same event. That totally happens all the time. Their mental state determines the details they fixate on, which get reinforced while other information gets fuzzy.

In the Star Wars Clone Wars series, Mandalorians were trained to resist Jedi mind tricks, in addition to cool shields that could block lightsabers. Monks in D&D have had ways of resisting mind control and charm like abilities, and Rogues in 3.Xe could learn Slippery Mind with the right Prestige Class, Shadowdancer I think. The point is, fiction has good examples of normal people being able to learn how to resist psychic powers, or at the very least hide their surface thoughts from passive scans. Now any GM that uses that regularly is a dick unless they have good reason, like an antagonist group which deliberately trains their people because their plans have been screwed up by telepaths one too many times. Which means at least once. So in that case whomever is in charge may have a history with telepaths, if they are not one themselves.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1021638The beginning of the end of my liking X-Men comics came as a result of the infamous X-Men/Micronauts limited series back in 1984.

It changed my view of telepaths. And the ethics of being a superhero with those powers.

For those looking for background on this series, it's covered really well on this blog entry--complete with images of panels.  

http://www.comicscube.com/2013/09/back-issue-ben-x-men-vs-micronauts.html

(The story to me--the concept of the Entity--might be a prototype for Onslaught--but this feels more like a prototype for the polar opposite of Xavier, the Shadow King, who basically did the same thing the entity did a lot).

Quote from: RPGPundit;1022206This is a weird phenomenon, that started to come up in popular perception only during the la
st few years. Before that, it depended on whether a telepath was good or not, but now there's this vibe (coming largely from the feminist-left) that argues that all telepathy is Rape Culture or something.

Actually, this stuff came up quite frankly in X-Men comics themselves.  The ethics of telepathy is touched on many times, especially in the Chris Claremont issues.  This goes back decades.  Maybe the simple reading of thoughts (as opposed to mental control) is a more sensitive subject, but at the very minimum reading of thoughts has always been seen as a somewhat invasion of privacy at minimum.

Quote from: jhkimStill, a long time ago in a futuristic superhero campaign, I had a character who was waging a secret campaign of assassination against the evil world government they were opposing. Many of his top targets were telepaths and mind controllers - as important steps in any secret campaign. He even had a contingency plan to kill a fellow PC telepath. Late in the campaign, the GM gave her a note that she accidentally read his mind and saw his plans to kill her - so she tried to kill him. I felt like this justified his having the plan in the first place. She tried to kill him for thinking of something he might do in the future. The other PCs were on her side, though, so I retired him and he went off to become an NPC.

Quote from: CarlD.;1022700Sounds like neither PC handled it or was handled particularly well and like most Intra PC conflict it got at least a little metagame personal OOC. At the very least in rpg logic as wonky as it was it seems like both PCs had ample reason to want to do each other in. And that it might have been the gms intent which was a dick move by the gm. Was that kind of relationship between the PC s part of the game?

A more realistic or at least rational reaction might have been to call out the assassin out. OTOH, there's no easy way to prove his plans even exist unless her accidental discovery revealed material means as well. It almost sounds like the plot of a thriller.

Actually, there wasn't any inter-player personal conflict between me and Allesandra - the player of the telepath. I was angry at the GM, in that I felt like he set these things up without giving my PC Blackout his due, but I was fine with her PC trying to kill my PC.

My PC Blackout was a teleporter with his own pocket dimension, and it would be very difficult to (a) collect any physical evidence, or (b) keep him locked up if he was found guilty. He was intentionally a borderline psycho, and I didn't mind him dying - but I did mind him being misrepresented, which I felt like the GM did. He had been tortured by the world government, and when he gained his freedom, he played dumb while secretly working to eliminate them, using several alter-egos through creative use of his powers.

Quote from: CarlDSimilar scenarios have come up in comics "Oh I came up with ways, plans, means to kill you because you're a psi, mutant, alien, really power, etc... you never know. Why are you so mad?" It can be dramatic but I think those sort of things are better either worked out with players before hand or to come up 'naturally' over the course of the game not egineered by the gm. It feels heavy handed. But then again, a secret that never comes to light is wasted in fiction and rpgs. On the gripping hand, IME Murderous intra PC conflict rarely ends well unless that's what everyone signed on for. Its important to discuss that sort of thing before the game begins.

I mostly agree. I think the GM should have consulted more with me before setting up that sort of plot line. I intended Blackout to be a wrench in the works, but he mostly had murderous intent towards the admittedly totalitarian government, not against other PCs. The plan against the other PC was a contingency, not something he really wanted. By having her specifically see the plan against her, he jumped up the conflict.

Quote from: JRT;1022843For those looking for background on this series, it's covered really well on this blog entry--complete with images of panels.  

http://www.comicscube.com/2013/09/back-issue-ben-x-men-vs-micronauts.html

The offending page of the quite horrible act is showcased on that blog. It was a straight up sexual assault on a minor. There is nothing to dispute about it. No question of what it was.