What would you consider the essential DM material to come out of the OSR and why?
Also anyone know where the hell to get a copy of Broodmother Skyfortress in print?
Quote from: Arkansan on April 23, 2021, 04:44:22 PM
What would you consider the essential DM material to come out of the OSR and why?
The OSR changed the way I look at RPG gaming, but I can't point to a single product. The real genius was/is hidden & scattered across the blogs.
Most useful would probably be Ben Robbins' West Marches campaign blogs http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/tag/westmarches/
1E AD&D DMG
Quote from: Jam The MF on April 23, 2021, 05:56:31 PM
1E AD&D DMG
Did not come out of the OSR - though I guess the WOTC reprint arguably was a result of the OSR.
The books Creature Compendium and Petty Gods, mainly because they both show what is possible with a DIY approach to the game and no cannon restrictions with the setting.
Quote from: S'mon on April 23, 2021, 06:38:04 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on April 23, 2021, 05:56:31 PM
1E AD&D DMG
Did not come out of the OSR - though I guess the WOTC reprint arguably was a result of the OSR.
Had a tremendous influence upon the OSR, though.
Matt Finch's Tome of Adventure Design. The volume is full of random tables to inspire creativity when designing your adventures. It's not a table supplement though.
I agree with AD&D 1e DMG. I have been writing a few bits about it.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/04/shoulders-of-giants-50-years-of-rpgs.html
I'm not the greatest fan of playing Chainmail, OD&D or even AD&D, to be honest. My favorite version of old-school D&D is Moldvay's Basic, because I think that the books that came before that were hard to understand and full of inconsistencies (AD&D had complicated rules that not even Gygax used).
My "take to a desert island" D&D book is probably the rules cyclopedia. BUT the AD&D 1e DMG would probably be my second option if I couldn't take the RC. I don't even play AD&D but I have my Moldvay-like rules memorized at this point, so the DMG would be more useful. Still, RC takes first place for containing do much.
Anyway:
It is amazing to see how little later editions have improved (when they did, which is seldom). Everything is there already; the classic magic items, NPC creation, AWESOME dungeon dressing, GREAT campaign advice (mixed with some odd stuff, surely). It talks about bell curves, something the 5e DMG apparently found unimportant (preferring to add "automatic success" rules that barely take probabilities into consideration).
Even the Appendixes generated entire books about them.
The Appendix N is the most famous one - it inspired DCC, one of my favorite RPGs, and at least one literary analysis book and one anthology. with "appendix N" in the name!
The Appendix D (random generation of creatures from the lower planes) planted the seed for the Teratogenicon and other books of the sort. One single paragraph ("STRICT TIME LIMITS") is the source of endless debate.
The original DMG is one of those books that leave you in awe. It makes you wonder if there is anything left of value to add to that. There is treasure to be found in every section.
BTW, I have my own series (called "Dark Fantasy") of DM-oriented booklets, containing both advice and random tables. I plan to turn into a full OSR DMG some day... but it is a daunting task.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/306824/Dark-Fantasy-EVERYTHING-BUNDLE
I do need to pick up a copy of the 1st edition DMG.
I think the larger point of the OSR is there is no "essential material; no top tens, nor bullet lists, nor cliff notes that someone can skim/speed-read their way through to a journeyman understanding of the game.
The vibrancy faded as soon as it passed from confirming assertions made in the original works through play (as opposed to the read/speak/read cycle), and discussing what play confirmed, to producing commentary that is to playing D&D what Cosmo articles are to sex: ten things I think this year's crop of college freshmen should think, written by college sophomores, and surrounded by 271 pages of advertising
I would pick up the Gazetteer line. Tons of ideas for adventuring and even a bit additional crunch. But I have a thing for fluff.
GAZ 3 Glantri marked the first time I genuflected and expressed my awe for a supplement.
Quote from: Palleon on April 24, 2021, 09:20:50 AM
Matt Finch's Tome of Adventure Design. The volume is full of random tables to inspire creativity when designing your adventures. It's not a table supplement though.
A wonderful resource.
I would suggest another of Matt's books though:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/shop/matthew-finch/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/ebook/product-1qm8y7m.html?page=1&pageSize=4 (http://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/shop/matthew-finch/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/ebook/product-1qm8y7m.html?page=1&pageSize=4)
The old school primer, invaluable for the GM to give out to all 'new to OSR' players.
The Dungeon Crawl Classics rulebook. ;D
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 23, 2021, 06:46:50 PM
The books Creature Compendium and Petty Gods, mainly because they both show what is possible with a DIY approach to the game and no cannon restrictions with the setting.
Apparently Petty Gods has a great cover.
Quote from: Jam The MF on April 23, 2021, 05:56:31 PM
1E AD&D DMG
Indeed, it is.
It was the first D&D book I ever saw, a kid in math class had it and let me look at it during class. It blew my mind then. Continues to blow my mind now every time I crack it open.
I think the 1e DMG is more fun to read through and mine for ideas. As an actual gamebook it's poorly organized, unfortunately. Which makes sense--the game was in its infancy and Gygax was more trying to put stuff scattered through various issues of Dragon in one place. He assumed people would know what they were looking for.
A lot of my fondest memories are reading through the lengthy descriptions of magic items, puzzling over why a monster would have a 5% chance of showing up in the hills but a 3% chance in the forest. And, of course, the lengthy list of ladies of the evening.
Quote from: dkabq on April 25, 2021, 08:26:51 AM
The Dungeon Crawl Classics rulebook. ;D
Yes. Another wellspring of inspiration.
Quote from: Null42 on April 25, 2021, 08:11:21 PM
A lot of my fondest memories are reading through the lengthy descriptions of magic items, puzzling over why a monster would have a 5% chance of showing up in the hills but a 3% chance in the forest. And, of course, the lengthy list of ladies of the evening.
The story goes that he did a lot of hookers and blow during the hey days of D&D.
Quote from: thomden on April 26, 2021, 03:33:38 AM
The story goes that he did a lot of hookers and blow during the hey days of D&D.
While he was in Hollywood (after 1980 I think) - after publication of the 1e DMG (1979). I guess he might have been gearing up!
First, absolutely agree on the impact and usefulness of the 1e DMG.
One of my favorite GM tools to come out of the OSR is the Random Esoteric Creature Generator by LotFP/Raggi. If I ever need to come up with some random seeds for the campaign, I just roll up 4-5 monsters. They are super fun to create, and easy to insert into the campaign.
OD&D. Go back to the start. Maybe even run a session, or a short campaign, using those three little brown books, and no other.
Even if you don't like that initial iteration of the rules, you will learn from the experience.
Quote from: RandyB on April 26, 2021, 03:04:39 PM
OD&D. Go back to the start. Maybe even run a session, or a short campaign, using those three little brown books, and no other.
Even if you don't like that initial iteration of the rules, you will learn from the experience.
That's what I've been running for nearly a decade now.
Quote from: Arkansan on April 26, 2021, 06:05:33 PM
Quote from: RandyB on April 26, 2021, 03:04:39 PM
OD&D. Go back to the start. Maybe even run a session, or a short campaign, using those three little brown books, and no other.
Even if you don't like that initial iteration of the rules, you will learn from the experience.
That's what I've been running for nearly a decade now.
That's the other possibility. :)
I started with Moldvay red/blue box and then moved on to AD&D in the early 80s. Is the Rules Cyclopedia as good as the red/blue Moldvay stuff? I never picked it up.
Quote from: Brigman on April 27, 2021, 07:05:45 PM
I started with Moldvay red/blue box and then moved on to AD&D in the early 80s. Is the Rules Cyclopedia as good as the red/blue Moldvay stuff? I never picked it up.
It's as fun and evocative to read as Keurig setup and use instructions. Possibly less so. Yeah, yeah, blah blah "It's everything in one book," blah blah Mystara. Never saw the appeal of that set of rules. I just don't. It lacks everything that gives D&D its flavor and character, and don't say "bUt ThE pLaYeRs PrOvIdE tHaT!" - D&D itself has been a good yarn from the get-go with OD&D's little in-jokes, suggestions for players who want to play androids or dragons, etc.
The Rules Cyclopedia is washed, bleached, rinsed, hung out to dry, then the whole process is repeated again. A good RPG needs to be engaging with its players and help inspire some fun, not just sit there and be a book full of tables and definitions. I can buy a used accounting textbook at the local college bookstore if that's all I want.
Quote from: Brigman on April 27, 2021, 07:05:45 PM
I started with Moldvay red/blue box and then moved on to AD&D in the early 80s. Is the Rules Cyclopedia as good as the red/blue Moldvay stuff? I never picked it up.
It's a dry and encyclopedic restatement of rules from the BECM boxes, some expansion on Known World content, and a few optional rules like skills. It's cheap enough for reprints but there are far better uses of money for a DM that is not actively running Mystara content.
Sounds like it's a pass, then. Thanks for the tips!
The RC does have a ton of good stuff, but if you have BX already I'd suggest your best bet is just getting the Companion Set https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17165/DD-Companion-Set-BECMI-Ed-Basic - that gives you the domain rulership and (very good, abstract) mass combat rules, AIR it even has the large & huge dragon stats. It extends the game to 25th level but you don't need to do that to use most of the material.
I also like Elmore's Companion Set art a lot & dislike the RC art a lot. YMMV. I'm certainly happy to have a copy of the RC I picked up cheap before the OSR made the old print books super expensive. But I find it lacks the magic feel of either the BX or BECMI box sets. And RC presents a bunch of cruft like the Mystic class and Weapon Mastery as core - this is late-BECMI stuff (mostly Masters Set I think) that needs to be treated very carefully, preferably with a 10' pole. :)
Yeah, I really like the RC because it is a slim reference book. YMMV.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 28, 2021, 08:09:09 AM
Yeah, I really like the RC because it is a slim reference book. YMMV.
The whole point of Rules Cyclopedia is a reference for BECMI. I wouldn't consider it a replacement at all, more like a single reference the DM can use. The players don't have much need for a rulebook during play, anyway, so its usefulness as something entertaining to read seems suspect. Use it as a manual, not a novel.
Quote from: Brad on April 28, 2021, 09:54:06 AM
The whole point of Rules Cyclopedia is a reference for BECMI. I wouldn't consider it a replacement at all, more like a single reference the DM can use. The players don't have much need for a rulebook during play, anyway, so its usefulness as something entertaining to read seems suspect. Use it as a manual, not a novel.
Well, at the time it was released it was a relatively cheap way to get the rules from the sets that were not necessarily easy to get. I know, because I bought the RC new to replace the boxed sets that I had lost. For me, it was a replacement. However, I'm not much of an art person, wanted it for running my own games instead of the setting material, and treat pretty much any RPG material as primarily reference. In other words, the perfect audience for that book. I can see why others in my situation or who were younger and missed out on the boxed sets would feel a little cheated if they didn't share my tastes.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 28, 2021, 10:52:33 AM
Well, at the time it was released it was a relatively cheap way to get the rules from the sets that were not necessarily easy to get. I know, because I bought the RC new to replace the boxed sets that I had lost. For me, it was a replacement. However, I'm not much of an art person, wanted it for running my own games instead of the setting material, and treat pretty much any RPG material as primarily reference. In other words, the perfect audience for that book. I can see why others in my situation or who were younger and missed out on the boxed sets would feel a little cheated if they didn't share my tastes.
I got it when it came out because at the time I had gotten rid of my boxed sets and moved on to the clearly superior AD&D 1st edition. Figured it was an easy way to have the BECMI rules in a convenient package. So, yes, it was a replacement for me as well. The art, eh, honestly it's not terrible. I do like the addition of the Hollow World stuff, the mystic (maybe I'm the only one), wish they had added thugs though. Weapon Mastery I'm ambivalent about as I never owned a copy of the Master set myself and we never really used those rules much. When I did play a 1-36-Immortal campaign one summer, we ended up using RC and Wrath of Immortals. A couple of the players never had the boxed sets, and it wasn't a big deal. I think a lot of this stuff is mostly retrospective analysis of a 30 year old book that until a few years ago was pretty much thought of as the definitive BECMI iteration. There is some unhealthy fascination with collecting boxed sets that a lot of us discarded as "kiddie junk" at the time, only to retroactively decide we were stupid and needed a copy to recapture our childhoods.
Quote from: Arkansan on April 23, 2021, 04:44:22 PMWhat would you consider the essential DM material to come out of the OSR and why?
It's hard for me to distill the OSR down to a single list of useful DM rules/materials. There's a lot that was crap, and many gems too. The rules material that I use regularly at the table isn't from the OSR directly---I play AD&D, so although I do use various additional OSRIC rule books regularly (Monsters of Myth, Malevolent & Benign, Trent Foster's AD&D Companion/Legendarium), I don't use the OSRIC rulebook itself. I have some other OSRIC books that I'll use from time to time (Exhumed Obscura, Dwellers in Dark Places, ), as well as some other OSR rules sets (most regularly Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea).
The decentralized nature of the OSR also makes such a list difficult to compile---there were so many good, cool blog posts (and G+ for awhile) that they've all folded into my backbrain and don't generally stick out as things that I'll come back to directly for reference/usage. Ditto for much of the content from Fight On! (and to a lesser extent Knockspell and AFS too).
I have used OSR adventures and continue to leverage the best in my campaigns as desire/mood/opportunity coincide, but I don't think that adventures are necessarily what you're looking for?
If I had to pick just one thing, it would probably be Gabor Lux's overall old-school gaming output---his blog, zines and adventures, and many contributions to KS and FO! Using Gabor's works, you could still "have the OSR" without even most of the rest of the tentpoles like S&W, OSRIC, the zines, etc.
Quote from: EOTB on April 25, 2021, 03:56:33 AMI think the larger point of the OSR is there is no "essential material; no top tens, nor bullet lists, nor cliff notes that someone can skim/speed-read their way through to a journeyman understanding of the game.
The vibrancy faded as soon as it passed from confirming assertions made in the original works through play (as opposed to the read/speak/read cycle), and discussing what play confirmed, to producing commentary that is to playing D&D what Cosmo articles are to sex: ten things I think this year's crop of college freshmen should think, written by college sophomores, and surrounded by 271 pages of advertising
LOL =)
Allan.
I highly recommend the d30 DM Companion-
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/102567/d30-DM-Companion
and the d30 Sandbox Companion-
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/124392/d30-Sandbox-Companion
OSR products that I would recommend:
Games
Fantastic Heroes and Witchery because of its scope, simplicity and flexibility- my second favourite OSR system---and its close.
Beyond the Wall (and especially its companion volume Further Afield) my personal favourite
The Sword & Sorcery sister game to the above: Through Sunken Lands my new shiny favourite
Dungeon Crawl Classics for the funnel and the craziness
Old School Essentialshttps://www.therpgsite.com/Themes/default/images/bbc/italicize.gif for the nostaliga and ease of use plus the expansions
Dragon Warriors (and the adventures Sleeping Gods and Elven Crystals)- my favourit e alternative to D&D redux
Settings
Second the Gazeteers of the Known World especially Karameikos, Glantri and Rockhome
Midderlands for the detail and the creepy oddness
Dolmenwood for the fairy-tale feel
Scenarios[/u] (including only the ones I have run on more than one occasion)
Necropolis of Nuromen (really old school feel)
The Keep on the Borderlands (of course)
Shadowbrook Manor (lots of deadly fun)
The Stygian Garden of Abelia Prim (truly original and excellent)
The Gardens of Ynn (great ideas)
Grave of the Heartless
Quote from: S'mon on April 23, 2021, 05:45:48 PM
The OSR changed the way I look at RPG gaming, but I can't point to a single product. The real genius was/is hidden & scattered across the blogs.
Lot of this. Jacquaying the Dungeon and No Quantum Ogres were key for me. Plus the general discussion around keeping all of xp for gold, encumbrance, time management, resource management, wandering monsters, reaction rolls and morale checks, and the game that emerges out of all of those.
But I don't have links to hand.
Quote from: Jam The MF on April 23, 2021, 05:56:31 PM
1E AD&D DMG
Also this.
But all that said, I would include the following in any well stocked OSR bookshelf:
Yoon-Suin
Judges Guild's Ready Ref Sheets
The Caverns of Thracia
Unless you've already started one of your own, one of the newer megadungeons. Barrowmaze or Anomalous Subsurface Environment are strong options. You don't actually need them all though.
One or both of Dyson's Delves books in print. Key at least a couple of the maps to have ready for play.
From ACKS, Lairs & Encounters for some ready to go overland lairs. The core book for the GM chapters in back if you plan to or might get into domain building or merchant trading later, even if you're not running the system.
Veins of the Earth
How to Run, by Alexis Smolensk. Technically old school rather than OSR for those who make the distinction, still a useful look at the high-prep style of GMing.
A False Machine 2011-2014. Patrick Stuart's better blog posts in print. So available for free if you don't mind clicking "older posts" a lot, but something I wish more of the best/influential bloggers had done. Some of those blogs are going dark and the posts lost.
At least one of the arthaus books. A Red and Pleasant Land, Lair of the Blue Medusa, Fire on the Velvet Horizon. Deep Carbon Observatory is arthaus-adjacent but more useful to arthaus-skeptical GMs, so check that out if nothing else.