I shared a picture on facebook and G+ about the project we are working on with Ernie Gygax, and I didn't want to let the RPG Site down on it. So here it is, along with the general "map description" I posted elsewhere:

"This is the map of the Hobby Shop Dungeon's Surface Level as drawn by yours truly, and presented to the players during the games run by Ernie Gygax at Gary Con V, March 14-17, 2013.

This classic, large dungeon at the roots of our game and favorite pastime was played at the Dungeon Hobby Shop of Lake Geneva during the late 70s. Since then, a thousand or more players have plundered its depths and/or met their doom within over the years!

Soon, we hope you too will be able to take part in this shared experience and do with this module as you will. Ernie and I are now working hard to bring this quality, time-honored, old school adventure setting to your own game tables. No release date yet. We will let you know. We just couldn't resist and had to share this photo with you all!"



I can't go into spoilers and details and the like, but if you guys want to talk about it, or ask some general questions or whatnot, here's the thread for it here. I hope to post some updates on here when they become relevant and the like. I'm getting busy now (and have been for a while, you might have noticed), so excuse me if I'm not answering questions right away.

Quote from: Benoist;643078I shared a picture on facebook and G+ about the project we are working on with Ernie Gygax, and I didn't want to let the RPG Site down on it. So here it is, along with the general "map description" I posted elsewhere:

"This is the map of the Hobby Shop Dungeon's Surface Level as drawn by yours truly, and presented to the players during the games run by Ernie Gygax at Gary Con V, March 14-17, 2013.

This classic, large dungeon at the roots of our game and favorite pastime was played at the Dungeon Hobby Shop of Lake Geneva during the late 70s. Since then, a thousand or more players have plundered its depths and/or met their doom within over the years!

Soon, we hope you too will be able to take part in this shared experience and do with this module as you will. Ernie and I are now working hard to bring this quality, time-honored, old school adventure setting to your own game tables. No release date yet. We will let you know. We just couldn't resist and had to share this photo with you all!"



I can't go into spoilers and details and the like, but if you guys want to talk about it, or ask some general questions or whatnot, here's the thread for it here. I hope to post some updates on here when they become relevant and the like. I'm getting busy now (and have been for a while, you might have noticed), so excuse me if I'm not answering questions right away.

How is "Gary Con V" gaming since "1978"? What does the date refer to? The date the dungeon was made?

Also, cool map is there anywhere I can read more about the module?

Quote from: Piestrio;643081How is "Gary Con V" gaming since "1978"? What does the date refer to?

The date refers to the time when the dungeon started to actually be played in the Dungeon Hobby Shop (owned by TSR in the corner of Main Street) of Lake Geneva in 1978. This particular print was used as a mat when the players sat to play with Ernie during the Gary Con V events, hence the "Welcome!" part of it.

Love the map, Benoist! I'm kind of a map geek. Would it derail the thread if I asked for some info on how it was done?

Nice work on the map. It looks amazing!

Edit: Ditto Dana's question.

Quote from: Dana;643084Love the map, Benoist! I'm kind of a map geek. Would it derail the thread if I asked for some info on how it was done?

Not at all. It was done all in pencil work, over three different (letter-sized) sheets of paper. I had to piece the whole map together, and then color it with photoshop. It was actually a marathon, because I had various drafts of it, but no final version before Ernie became so busy with the fire and everything. Then, about a week and a half before Gary Con he talked to me about how this map would really be great to introduce the players to it and all. I was like "OK. Consider it done" and I worked on it for five days, 13 hours a day, I cursed the high heavens and everything (LOL) but it was done on time, thankfully.

It looks gigantic. Did you print it on a plotter or maybe at a print shop?

I scanned the original in very high resolution so Ernie could print it in whatever size he felt was appropriate for the games. This resulted in this gigantic print which is around... checking now...  28 x 42 inches or some such. Ernie printed it himself. All I know is that he went for the higher grade stuff right off the bat with the actual printer, and that the paper alone cost more than 20 bucks to print on.

I would love a copy of the high res scan so I could print out my own poster sized version of this bad boy.

I am also looking forward to the module.

Could you give  a little history of this dungeon. I haven't read or heard anything about this corner of hobby history until now.

That's pretty cool! I recall the eBay auction with the humongous map of its lowest level (scroll down for a picture).

Are you releasing the dungeon in a way that's documentarian (like some RJK releases) or in a more updated form?

Also, what can you tell us about the style it is following?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;643128I would love a copy of the high res scan so I could print out my own poster sized version of this bad boy.

I am also looking forward to the module.

Thanks! I don't know about making the high resolution pic available (I'm not alone in the boat, and the decision isn't mine to take on my own), but you are not the only one making a request to have access to this kind of blown up map of the surface. Now, I have no idea how that'd be feasible, the kind of material troubles that would be involved in producing these kinds of products and the like, but I'll discuss the possibility with Ernie.

Quote from: estar;643131Could you give  a little history of this dungeon. I haven't read or heard anything about this corner of hobby history until now.

Sure. Ernie Gygax was working for some time in the TSR Dungeon Hobby Shop, which was basically the hobby shop owned by TSR occupying the ground level of the Hotel Clair on the corner of Main Street in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin (where the headquarters of TSR were located then). Here's a shot of the Hotel Clair:



The Dungeon Hobby Shop was where you see the "chocolates" shop on this pic. The editors for TSR had their offices upstairs, if I remember correctly.

In any case. Ernie decided to run games in the store. Terry Kuntz (brother of Rob Kuntz, one of the original players of the game as well, who worked at the store too at the time) had done some unkeyed maps (the first levels of the dungeon, the big map that Melan linked having been drawn by Ernie himself) for a dungeon he never ran. Not having done anything with it, he gave the maps to Ernie who then populated, keyed the whole thing and basically came up with what became the "Hobby Shop Dungeon".

The Dungeon was played in a variety of venues, starting with the Dungeon Hobby Shop in 1977/78. At the time lots of sailors on the Great Lakes came to buy games at the store, so many gamers played through it at some point or other. People like E. Gary Gygax, Rob Kuntz and other friends and TSR alumni would also explore its depths.

The Dungeon then was used in Margaret Weis's store after the TSR years, if I remember correctly (can't remember the name of store), in home games, in conventions, and on and on, up to this day. Hundreds of players have explored it. More than a thousand, as Ernie puts it.

Quote from: Melan;643135That's pretty cool! I recall the eBay auction with the humongous map of its lowest level (scroll down for a picture).

That map. That is Ernie's work. It is a thing of beauty. That picture really doesn't do it justice. Ernie sent me some surviving copies for safe-keeping after his apartment's fire (they still smell like smoke; he could grab them in extremis before rushing out the door). The map's been badly damaged over the years, but you can still read a lot of stuff on it. It will be an epic challenge to work on it, but we're not quite there yet. I'm both excited and afraid at the prospect.

Quote from: Melan;643135Are you releasing the dungeon in a way that's documentarian (like some RJK releases) or in a more updated form?

The latter, e.g. a more updated form. The point of publishing this dungeon for us is to share this dungeon setting with gamers, to actually see it played and enjoyed by a variety of people. Both Ernie and I are very conscious of the value of the original and that the published version should be as genuine as possible as well, however.

As we started work on the dungeon, we had to consider several problems: some maps were damaged in some areas, some parts of the keys were missing, for instance. So we would have some solid renovation work to do right from the start.

Working on the maps, I started to notice some mistakes, such as entrances and exits not actually lining up from one level to the next, those kinds of things. We also talked about the dungeon for hours, and basically I would ask questions like "why is this guy there?" and the like, so that the implicit, the stuff Ernie never wrote on the keys, and that would completely fly over the head of a DM who knows next to nothing about this dungeon, could readily be  accessed and understood before running games with it.

Reworking the maps I made sense of some of the physics of the place (things like siphons, river networks, stone foundations for the keep underground and the like). That reconfiguration led to some areas that needed to be filled, map flows that needed to be fixed, etc, all the while trying to incorporate all of the original material and showcase it in a manner that is as authentic as we could possibly present it.

Now the actual essence of the original maps we are keeping as genuine as we can. That is, if you have say a shrine in an area in the NW corner of the map of level 1, you'll see that same shrine in the NW corner of the new map as well. By comparison, it is infinitely more genuine than something like the Ruins of Greyhawk was to the original, or even Castle Zagyg, for that matter.

You can see an example of that with this map of the surface you see here. . .



. . . when compared to the original you can see on that picture:



You can see some of the modifications that were made between the two versions, like modifying the waterworks around the keep for reasons I can't really get into here (spoilers), all the while keeping the essence of the keep and its character as true to the original as we could.

The result should be a dungeon setting that can be approached in a number of different of ways by different types of DMs, so they can run their own games out of it, however they see fit, take apart the levels, use or not use this or that random table and whatnot, play the whole thing as close to the original as they want, or not, and so on.

The point ultimately is for this thing to be played. Not to be kept in a museum behind some bullet proof glass.

We're working to make that happen, and to make the material as readily usable as we can.

Quote from: Melan;643135Also, what can you tell us about the style it is following?

In terms of vibe, it is a classic large dungeon set up: it's a keep lost in the wilderness. There are dungeons under the keep which have been created by some powerful magic-user or entity in the past, for reasons that are not readily known. It features a progressive approach through its levels, in terms of difficulty as well as the crazy factor (that is, the deeper you get, the more likely you are to come across some weird stuff). Ernie was a teenager at the time and was modeling a lot of his stuff on his dad's Greyhawk, and you can feel the influence here and there. It's got the meat and potatoes "vanilla" experience of the game, and some weirder stuff besides. It is meant as a dynamic place, with various groups and individuals with different goals and interests in being where they are in the first place.

In terms of writing, we're trying to make it approachable, spelling out the implicit, presenting it in a way that conveys the dynamism, history and mystery of the place, while at the same time leaving a lot of room for the DM to breathe and shape it, retool it, rework it however s/he wants. You can get a sense of what I'm talking about by checking my sample Bandit level in the advice to build the mega-dungeon linked in my sig. In terms of writing style, as far as the keys are concerned, it'll probably look similar, once everything's said and done, drafts have been revised and corrected and edited a dozen times and all that jazz.

Quote from: Benoist;643078I shared a picture on facebook and G+ about the project we are working on with Ernie Gygax, and I didn't want to let the RPG Site down on it. So here it is, along with the general "map description" I posted elsewhere:

"This is the map of the Hobby Shop Dungeon's Surface Level as drawn by yours truly, and presented to the players during the games run by Ernie Gygax at Gary Con V, March 14-17, 2013.

This classic, large dungeon at the roots of our game and favorite pastime was played at the Dungeon Hobby Shop of Lake Geneva during the late 70s. Since then, a thousand or more players have plundered its depths and/or met their doom within over the years!

Soon, we hope you too will be able to take part in this shared experience and do with this module as you will. Ernie and I are now working hard to bring this quality, time-honored, old school adventure setting to your own game tables. No release date yet. We will let you know. We just couldn't resist and had to share this photo with you all!"



I can't go into spoilers and details and the like, but if you guys want to talk about it, or ask some general questions or whatnot, here's the thread for it here. I hope to post some updates on here when they become relevant and the like. I'm getting busy now (and have been for a while, you might have noticed), so excuse me if I'm not answering questions right away.

Awesome, man.

Quote from: 1989;643227Awesome, man.

Thanks, mate!

I'm looking forward to this being released. If it would lend itself well to a short-term PbP, I might try to run it.