I don't think I have had this problem for years...
I have an NPC villain once that had killed (well paid for someone else to kill) one PCs wife, one's brother, 2 other PCs and assortment of NPCs and destroyed half of Down town New York. When the players cornered him took out his body guards and finally had them under their power, just 2 of them left he cut a deal... offered one of them 100 million dollars in untraceable bonds to be delivered at a time of the guys choosing and offered the other one a TV deal and a record contract. They umm... let him go and got what they asked for.
I agree that PCs will try and save the heroic NPC as he falls but its all about timing. I tend to run the logic backwards. The PC are under attack, one of them falls to the ground critically injured, that is when the NPC can savely be disposed of. The NPC charges in saves the PC gets swamped as he does so the other PC pull the injured guy out just in time to see the hero fall under the orcish axe... not difficult its just timing.

I would never have a cut scene where the PC could not act until the scene concluded I hate that with a vengeance. If President Obama has to get assasinated in the first scene and the PC are his bodyguards then they will all be walking across a square when they get a couple of random checks for perception. If one gets that critical success then they see a flash atop a distant tower block. If not then Obama goes down to a spray of 4 silenced shots from a G11 or something. The party can pursue and a chase may well follow but the other guy does have 600m head start.....

As the GM you are totally in control of when things happen even if you have set up a world where things act out in their own time and aren't linked to a PC 'story'.

I can see both sides of this argument but I think that Pundit definitely has a point.  No one likes to be railroaded but there are certain events such as the death of an ally or enemy that a GM can use to move the plot of a scenario along and make it more entertaining.  In my experience players understand the function of these brief "cinematic" moments but understandably they sometimes have a hard time being inactive despite knowing what is going on.

For example, I was in a RQ game once where the GM used elements from a Pendragon scenario.  I forget all the details but essentially the NPC Knight told one of my fellow PC's that he would allow him one unopposed sword swing at him if the NPC then got a free swing at the PC in return.  The PC went for it, no doubt with visions of looting the body, but predictably* after he lopped the guy's head off the decapitated body tried to pick up the head and reattach it.....and it would have worked had I not grabbed the head and run for the front door with the intention of finding a deep river or large fire to throw it into.  So yeah, even when you know the intent is to move the scenario along, it is really hard for PC's to just sit back and watch the action sometimes....and that is as it should be......

*Well, it is predictable to readers of this board at least.

Quote from: RPGPunditIn my experience, if you want to kill off an NPC ally of the pcs, you'd better make damn sure that the PCs are nowhere near him.

Likewise, if you want an NPC enemy of the pcs to survive, you'd better have him no where near the PCs.

No joke.

Reminds me of one of the first third party 3e adventures I chanced to review. The players witness the death of an NPC at the hands of monsters... but this immediately struck me as a foregone assumption that the NPC would die, considering the PCs were still able to see and act to stop it.

Quote from: GrimjackNo one likes to be railroaded but there are certain events such as the death of an ally or enemy that a GM can use to move the plot of a scenario along and make it more entertaining.  In my experience players understand the function of these brief "cinematic" moments but understandably they sometimes have a hard time being inactive despite knowing what is going on.

Well, that does require players willing to accept that the GM is only acting "for the good of the story", even if their efforts logically should have been able to make a difference. For others, that will feel a little foreign: I'll certainly make the most of the tragic deaths that take place during play, but I'd never presume that the PCs have no right to interfere with the course of events if the opportunity to do so presents itself.

Quote from: GrimjackFor example, I was in a RQ game once where the GM used elements from a Pendragon scenario.  I forget all the details but essentially the NPC Knight told one of my fellow PC's that he would allow him one unopposed sword swing at him if the NPC then got a free swing at the PC in return.  The PC went for it, no doubt with visions of looting the body, but predictably* after he lopped the guy's head off the decapitated body tried to pick up the head and reattach it.....and it would have worked had I not grabbed the head and run for the front door with the intention of finding a deep river or large fire to throw it into.

:haw:

So now that we've done this up right, what sort of tricks can a GM use if the NPC is as dead as he'd like them? I mean you guys are all pretty smart, so let's make some solutions happen.

What immediately comes to mind is making the NPC useless-sure you saved him, but he's finished. Maybe he's scared by his brush with death and wants to go into hiding. Maybe he's angry, and looking for vengeance, but not with you and yours. Or maybe he just wants to live to see another day, so he clams up.

What else can you do?

Maybe he's pissed off you didn't protect him better, and treats it like a betrayal. "You let him nearly kill me before you cast _any_ healing magic at all!"

Maybe he's a bad guy, and the attempted assassination was only meant to ensure that he has a place close to the party, so they can "protect" him.

Quote from: GrimGentWell, that does require players willing to accept that the GM is only acting "for the good of the story", even if their efforts logically should have been able to make a difference. For others, that will feel a little foreign: I'll certainly make the most of the tragic deaths that take place during play, but I'd never presume that the PCs have no right to interfere with the course of events if the opportunity to do so presents itself.

I think that is true, it is far more satisfying if the PCs get a chance to intervene so a good GM will prepare enough firepower to make sure the job gets done right.  In my Pendragon/RQ example above, the doors to the hall magically sealed and the Knight's retainers and his decapitated body chased me around trying to recover the head.  That actually lead to an entertaining game of catch between the PCs until I unfortunately missed my "throw" roll on an attempt to lob the head out of a high window.  The bad guys recovered the head and the plot was advanced and it was way more enjoyable than it would have been had we just let events unfold cinematically.

In my games (DnD, RQ, EPT, Shadowrun, Traveller, MRQ, etc), if a villain really wants an NPC dead and is concerned about PC interference then I will prepare for it and also prepare for the fact that if the PC's are smart and lucky enough the attempt might fail.  I've had NPC's taken out with sniper rifles or crossbow shots, poisoned, thrown from a dirigible, had random knives in the back from faceless assassins in the crowd, and one was even captured and unknowingly had a cranial bomb implanted so that other NPC's would be taken out too after he was rescued by the PCs.  It is tougher if resurrection magic is readily available but if the NPC is incinerated or eaten or sucked into the void or whatever that usually complicates resurrection attempts.

IMHO it is usually just a question of planning the "cinematic event" properly and preparing a back up plan in case the lucky NPC somehow survives.

Quote from: GrimjackIt is tougher if resurrection magic is readily available but if the NPC is incinerated or eaten or sucked into the void or whatever that usually complicates resurrection attempts.

I was just thinking about a Sphere of Annihilation, but isn't there a spell in D&D that accomplishes much the same thing? I remember it because it's one of the few such things* that can hurt my undead PC. Ah, yes: Destruction. Unless your PCs have True Resurrection or a spare Wish, that's a killer.

Quote from: GrimjackIMHO it is usually just a question of planning the "cinematic event" properly and preparing a back up plan in case the lucky NPC somehow survives.

It does seem like it's really quite simple to engineer such a moment in advance, given sufficient forethought. But now I'm just being a dick to Pundit, as is my wont, so I'm going to shut up.

*"Such things" being "shit that requires a Fortitude save."

I think you may be refering to the Disintigrate spell. But, reading the spell, an undead character (?) is simply disintigrated (without a save), as they are made up of "non-living" matter (by definition). I had to rule that undead are made of living matter to avoid this (I was GMing an undead heavy campaign at the time...):hehe:

Yep, I'm almost completely certain you're correct. And the "almost" is only because the d20 SRD doesn't have that little bit of text about how each spell applies to undead; weird.

I don't expect them to say how each spell applies to undead (many have no effect: sleep, charm etc, as explained in the undead section of the MM), but to allow the ultimate evil undead at the end of an adventure to be killed outright ("disintegrates as much as a 10 foot cube of non living matter" - no save) if the characters get through his SR (and make a ranged touch attack) is silly. I saw the problem right away - you've got a 5th level spell which is technically an undead killer (no matter how powerful). Why didn't Wizards?

If undead are truly "non-living" then disintegration would seem to be a real problem....or a great thing depending on whether you are the disintegrator or disintegratee.  I've always held that although they aren't really "alive" in a traditional sense, the energy that animates the undead acts as a kind of substitute life force that keeps them from being "non-living".  Yeah, it is probably rules-lawyering but it keeps undead dangerous, which is how I like em.