People just do not fit neatly into a single Alignment.

Quote from: Bill;690225People just do not fit neatly into a single Alignment.

well we fit into 12 zodiac signs, 12 chinese zodiac, 16 Tarot Signifers, etc etc

So it depnds if you are proscriptive or descriptive I guess.

What is your philosophy? how do you feel about honest? duty? self sacrifice, rule of law, order, freedom?

try this quiz - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20001222b

Quote from: jibbajibba;690234well we fit into 12 zodiac signs, 12 chinese zodiac, 16 Tarot Signifers, etc etc

So it depnds if you are proscriptive or descriptive I guess.

What is your philosophy? how do you feel about honest? duty? self sacrifice, rule of law, order, freedom?

try this quiz - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20001222b

I took the test, and it says I am Neutral Good.


No one fits into a Zodiac sign.

One is born on a specific date, and then uses mental gymnastics to match aspects of their life to things in that particular Zodiac profile/prediction.

People don't always react the same way to the same situation either.

Quote from: jibbajibba;690234well we fit into 12 zodiac signs, 12 chinese zodiac, 16 Tarot Signifers, etc etc

So it depnds if you are proscriptive or descriptive I guess.

What is your philosophy? how do you feel about honest? duty? self sacrifice, rule of law, order, freedom?

try this quiz - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20001222b

This is a good example of how I find Alignment too simplistic.

QuoteFamily elders are expressing disapproval of you to the rest of the family. Do you:

 Accept the criticism and change your ways
 Seek a compromise with the elders
 Besmirch the reputation of the elders as you ignore their scorn
 Silence the elders any way you can

E - none of the above. I'd listen to thier criticism with an open mind (as in A), but I'd only change if I agreed with them. If I disagreed, however, I wouldn't seek to besmirch thier reputations or silence them.

QuoteWould you give up a promising career to aid the family in time of need?

 In a heartbeat

IF a 'time of need' meant people's lives were on te line, not "the family business isn't doing great", or "grandma's sick", etc.
 

QuoteWould you betray a family member to advance your own career?

 Yes, without a twinge of guilt
 Yes, if I could do it secretly
 I'd resist the temptation
 I find the very idea abhorrent

Tempted to say D, but what does betrayal mean here? Not doing something the family approves of? I could care less. Taking a promotion another family miner wanted? Survival of the fittest loser.

QuoteDo you respect the leaders of your family?

 They're out of touch with reality

Which accurately describes my family, but how does it in any way reflect my personal ethics?

QuoteIf your family had arranged your marriage to someone loathsome, would you:

 Go through with it, proud to serve your family
 Agree, hiding your reluctance
 Subtly work against the union
 Flee

E - none of the above. I'd simply refuse. No subtlety, no running.

QuoteYou're estranged from a family member. On his deathbed, he seeks reconciliation. Do you:

 Speak to him, but hold your ground
 Refuse to speak to him
 Discuss your estrangement openly and without rancor
 Actively seek reconciliation, and heed his dying words

Totally depends on why we're estranged. Because of a silly disagreement? A&C. Because he's morally corrupt? B

QuoteA powerful but corrupt judge offers you wealth if you'll testify against a friend.

 Testify on your friend's behalf, no matter the consequences

You know, unless the friend was actually guilty, which the question doesn't address, or by testifying I put my life at risk in a situation where I couldn't win anyways. I'd never take money either way, though.

QuoteDo you become close to friends, or hold most people at a safe distance?

 I have an abundance of close friends
 I have some close friends
 I have few close friends
 I try to keep people at a distance

E- none of the above. I have many friends, I wouldn't describe any as close not because I TRY to keep them at a distance, but because of a total failure to find any people it's really possible to communicate with on the level of close friendship.

QuoteHave you ever betrayed a friend?

 I've done so more than once, and I sometimes get away with it
 I've done so once
 I've been tempted to do so, but I've never gone through with it
 I'd never contemplate such a thing

Again, what does that mean? I've "stolen" GFs from friends, but that's coming from a belief that no one can really "own" another person. Should have put a ring on it. OTOH, I'd never talk about a friend behind thier back, or intentionally cause them pain or harm.

QuoteHow do you view lifelong commitment to a single romantic partner?

 I'm waiting to find such a romance
 Such a romance would be ideal -- if it's achievable

QuoteAgain, how does even relate to Alignment? Is a person who isn't monogamous more 'evil' or 'chaotic'? By what moral standard?

QuoteDo you insist on repayment when lending money to friends?

 No, although it's sure nice to be repaid

QuoteAre you still in touch with childhood friends?

 No, I move around too much
 No, I don't have anything in common with them anymore

Again, how does that track on a scale of lawful good to chaotic evil? Am I supposed to accept the person who wrote the quizzes obvious adherence to conservative Christian ethical implications ?

QuoteDo you donate time and money to improve the local community?

 Yes, the needs of the community are my top priority
 Yes, I donate as much as I can once my own needs are met
 No, I don't have enough time or money to spare
 No, my local community would be a waste of time and money

I don't currently even have a "community".

QuoteYour community is threatened with invasion. Do you:

 Help defend it to your last breath
 Man the barricades with the rest of the community
 Flee as soon as things look grim
 Cut a deal with the invaders to act as a spy

This seems once more based on the assumption, apparently, that 'my country' is by default 'just and righteous'. Id generally find that hard to believe of humanity overall.

QuoteIf you were injured and required immediate assistance, would members of your home community agree to help?

 Yes, because they know I'd do the same for them
 Yes, because I'm generally well liked
 Probably not, because I'm distrusted by the powers that be
 Definitely not. I've made some enemies here

Do you respect the laws and authorities in the community?

 Yes, without question
 Yes, they're generally the best way to govern
 When it suits me -- there are some laws I just don't agree with
 I don't pay attention to the authorities; they've got no hold on me

Do members of the community shun, avoid, or mock you?

 Yes, their small minds can't handle anyone outside the norm
 Some do, because I don't always fit in
 No, I'm generally seen as normal
 No, I set the standard for what is normal in my community

Would you stand for office or seek to represent the interests of the community in some public manner?

 To do so would be an honor I'd joyously accept
 Of course. It's everyone's duty to do so
 Only if no one else could handle the job
 No, I don't want to be responsible for the community's welfare

Relationship to King and Country

Your country is wracked with famine. Would you:

 Share what food you had with others
 Eat as little as possible yourself, and share the rest
 Steal what food you needed to survive
 Steal as much food as possible, then sell it back to the community at a high price

If offered enough money, would you slip a poison into your king's drink?

 Yes, and I've done similar things before
 Yes, if I thought I could get away with it
 No, although a vast sum of money would tempt me
 No, and I'd warn the king of the plot

A plague is sweeping across your country. Would you:

 Undertake a dangerous mission to find a cure
 Heal the sick as best you can
 Avoid contact with the sick
 Flee the country

Do you respect the lawful authority of the rulers of the land?

 Yes. Long live the queen!
 Yes, our rulers are generally fair and just
 No, a ruler is no better than anyone else
 No, rulers are invariably corrupted by power

If you were offered a reasonably lucrative deal, would you spy for a hostile foreign power?

 Yes, because my nation could stand to be knocked down a peg
 Yes, because my nation's secrets mean little to me
 No, because I might get caught
 No, because I'd never violate the trust my nation put in me

Do you rely on the government to enforce contracts and property rights?

 Yes, because maintaining the rule of law is more important than any individual dispute
 Yes, because the courts are best equipped to handle such disputes
 Are you kidding me? The government can't even pave roads
 Absolutely not. If I can't defend it myself, I don't deserve to have it

Thoughts on Crime and Punishment

If imprisoned, would you injure or kill others to escape?

 Yes. Serves 'em right for locking me up
 Yes. They knew the risks when they took the job
 No, except for minor wounds that will heal easily
 No. Those guards are just doing their jobs

Do you accept a noble's right to treat badly the serfs who work on his land?

 Yes. They're lucky they're not slaves
 Yes, because sometimes only fear will motivate them
 No, nobles should rule as kindly as possible
 No one has any "right" to treat another badly. Period

You have accidentally committed a crime. Do you:

 Confess, and attempt to make restitution to the victim
 Confess, throwing yourself on the mercy of the court
 Hide your involvement, lying if you have to
 Try to pin the crime on another

If guilty, would you confess to a crime?

 Yes, because it is my duty to do so
 Yes, because it might get me a lighter sentence
 No, I'd make the magistrates prove my guilt
 No, and I'd try to "prove" my innocence

Would you express a revolutionary political opinion if threatened with punishment?

 Yes, I'd rather be punished than remain silent. Up the revolution!
 Yes. Somebody's got to speak the truth
 No, although I might privately express my opinion to friends
 No, politics aren't worth getting worked up about

While traveling, you witness an assault. You are ordered to testify, which will delay your travel significantly. Do you:

 Slip out of town at night to avoid testifying
 Deny you saw anything
 Remain reluctantly, testify, and leave
 Remain until the trial's conclusion in case further testimony is needed

Thoughts on Business and the Economy

What is the best use of wealth?

 To help the destitute and less fortunate
 Provide for the needs of friends and family
 To stay on top of the heap yourself
 To not only stay on top, but keep others from climbing to your level

When confronted by beggars, do you:

 Give generously
 Give moderately
 Give only what I wouldn't miss anyway -- a copper or two at most
 Ignore them as you walk by

By using magic, you could fool village merchants into thinking your copper pieces were made of gold. Do you?

 Yes, and I'll buy as much as I can
 Yes, but I'll only cheat the rich merchants
 No, it's too risky
 No, those merchants have families to feed

You have two job offers. One pays more, but the other is secure and steady. Which do you choose?

 Definitely the lucrative job; steady work sounds like drudgery
 Probably the lucrative job, although I'd look into the secure job
 The secure job, unless the other job was outrageously lucrative
 Definitely the secure job, because I plan for the long term

What's the best path to wealth?

 It's a matter of luck and being in the right place at the right time
 Staying flexible so you can take advantage of good opportunities
 Following a long-term plan that incorporates a comfortable level of risk
 Hard work and perseverance

If you accepted a job or contract, would you try to finish the task even if it got much more dangerous?

 Yes, my word is my bond
 Yes, because it's good to have a reputation for dependability
 You can bet I'd be renegotiating
 If it's no longer a good deal, then the deal is off

Will answer the rest in a little while, but surely I've shown my point. At least half the questions I simply couldn't answer because I had no context to make a decision, and the other half I gave answers depending on very specific circumstances.

Quote from: Bill;690239I took the test, and it says I am Neutral Good.


No one fits into a Zodiac sign.

One is born on a specific date, and then uses mental gymnastics to match aspects of their life to things in that particular Zodiac profile/prediction.

People don't always react the same way to the same situation either.

No and alignment is a best off generally how do you...

People identify with zodiac signs all the time. You hear people say Oh you are such an aries or I am such a gemini. Tests have shown that peole exposed to zodiac signs mimic the characteristics of those signs kind of a +ve reinforcement, gives you an excuse to be contrary, fickle or arogant, or a boost of confidence to make you better at reading people, or able to converse with large groups.

The point is try to treat alignment like that a broad band of where you generally sit. If you get a player to write down their PCs philosophy or get them to answer a character quiz, like you do in Amber, you will be able to map their alignment pretty easily without them knowing. You could probably name their star sign as well while you are at it

Quote from: jibbajibba;690244No and alignment is a best off generally how do you...

People identify with zodiac signs all the time. You hear people say Oh you are such an aries or I am such a gemini. Tests have shown that peole exposed to zodiac signs mimic the characteristics of those signs kind of a +ve reinforcement, gives you an excuse to be contrary, fickle or arogant, or a boost of confidence to make you better at reading people, or able to converse with large groups.

The point is try to treat alignment like that a broad band of where you generally sit. If you get a player to write down their PCs philosophy or get them to answer a character quiz, like you do in Amber, you will be able to map their alignment pretty easily without them knowing. You could probably name their star sign as well while you are at it

People will also lie, intentionally or otherwise, about what they would do in a  situation. and often be surprised how they act in a situation.

Alignment does not cause me difficulties in rpgs, but then again I never jam it tdown a players throat or tell a player how to act.

Quote from: Bill;690248People will also lie, intentionally or otherwise, about what they would do in a  situation. and often be surprised how they act in a situation.

Alignment does not cause me difficulties in rpgs, but then again I never jam it tdown a players throat or tell a player how to act.

Well sure you are supposed to answer truthfully one assumes that when you do it for a PC that is easier becuase you totally do control what they do every time.
As for the quiz those quizzes have been used fo everything from are you good in bed to how to be homecoming queen to are you a sociopath. The principle is sound if the questions are actually well thought out, learning styles, leadership potential etc And there is an industry behind them.
the questions here, knocked up by a WotC staffer on a slow Tuesday, may not be the best but you get the idea.

As for dictating action not at all alignment to me is most usefult for tracking large populations or NPCs but the part after the quiz where it explains how belief and ideology change over time is useful I think.

An individual act can have an alignment I think. so its okay to point out to the lawful Neutral fighter that prizing the eyes out of the statue in the temple with a dagger might be out of character, not to stop them doing it but just as a aide-memoire. A good guy isn't always good temptation is rampant, just go to Hong Kong, but as a big picture .....

Tell me only the good things that come to mind, about ...your mother...

Outside of alignment based spells, I don't see any point to alignment.  Even with alignment based spells (like protection) I see no reason why an evil creature wouldn't want protection from another evil creature.  If evil creatures can trust each other, they're probably not evil...    

So I make all those spells just 'protection and they work universally.

I don't think people map over to the 9 alignments very well.  Even as an 'aspiration' they don't work very well.  As descriptive, they're even worse.

A good example for why they're such a mess is the 3.x Player's Handbook.  In the alignment section it describes why Miale (the wizard) is chaotic due to her devotion to her art and why Ember (the monk) is lawful due to her devotion to her art.  

Motivations for a character matter more than painting an alignment on their sleeve.

Quote from: jibbajibba;690219Don't confuse the guy that follows all the laws with the guy who beleives that a strong set of rules and principles are essential. I really think Robin hood is probably neutral good or possibly lawful good depending on which interpretation or version of the tales you read.
In the classic tale he is lawful good. A knight returning from he crusades to find his country usurped so he defends the king he has sworn fealty to and starts a guerilla war against the Evil John and despotic Sheriff. In Robin hood prince of thieves he is an arrogant cock in Robin of Sherwood he is probably more neutral good you get the impression he is fighting John's despotism because it is despotic not because he is loyal to another force.
Chaotic good would be more Clint Eastward in TGTB&TU or Tom Bombadil.

Robin Hood has been cited as a classic example of good in official D&D products, and repeated frequently ( such as at http://easydamus.com/alignment.html ).  I don't care whether you are right versus them, but the point is that it isn't so easy to classify even for classic, iconic characters.  

Regarding the parallel to zodiac signs, I think that's true - but zodiac signs aren't exclusively descriptive.  The reason they work is that most people fit with many different signs - so if I say that I'm a Sagittarius, people will nod and see how that fits - and if I say that I'm a Capricorn, people will also nod and see how that fits.

Quote from: jhkim;690299and if I say that I'm a Capricorn, people will also nod and see how that fits.

Brian's mother: What star sign is he?

Wise Man #2: Capricorn.

Brian's mother: Capricorn, eh? What are they like?

Wise Man #2: He is the son of God, our Messiah.

Wise Man #1: King of the Jews.

Brian's mother: And that's Capricorn, is it?

Wise Man #3: No, no, that's just him.

Brian's mother: Oh, I was going to say, otherwise there'd be a lot of them.

Quote from: TristramEvans;690243Will answer the rest in a little while, but surely I've shown my point. At least half the questions I simply couldn't answer because I had no context to make a decision, and the other half I gave answers depending on very specific circumstances.

Quizzes aren't supposed to be precise in each given question.  It is assume you will bring along your perspective even when reading the question.

Paragons of an axis won't do "it depends" style answers.  So you're definitely somewhere in the Neutral camp.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;690307Brian's mother: What star sign is he?

Wise Man #2: Capricorn.

Brian's mother: Capricorn, eh? What are they like?

Wise Man #2: He is the son of God, our Messiah.

Wise Man #1: King of the Jews.

Brian's mother: And that's Capricorn, is it?

Wise Man #3: No, no, that's just him.

Brian's mother: Oh, I was going to say, otherwise there'd be a lot of them.

The man who is called Roman is in the House..... gotta love that movie

My point really was we classify people in much broader bands in the Real world bands with much fuzzier edges.

Really if you write down the philosophy of your PC it reveals an alignment nearly always.


Kesh the Silent
Kesh was born to a poor family and through fast wits and a little larceny he was able to drag himself out of that position and is now a settled if not entirely whiter than white owner of a tavern on the Street of Dogs.
His Philosophy is  -
Always be careful, generally people aren't to be trusted, even the ones you think are honest and true can fold on you if they are threatened or put under pressure. Listen to what people say and watch how they act the two are often at odds. Seldom offer an opinion unless one is presented with one and then decide if the offerer of hte opinion wants a debate or just wants their own ideas backed up. Don't look too clever or try to be the hero.

That is a pretty simple philosophy and we can deduce from it Kesh's alignment, modivation and character. Oh and he's obviously a virgo

Now an alternative Lars
Lars left home at 13 to take a place on a ship crossing the Silver Sea. Having witnessed the harsh life on board ship and the differences between the officers and crew he joined a mutiny and later sided with the crew of the freebooter Harmon Jakes.
His Philosophy is -
Men were ment to be free, the shackles that bind us to country state or religion are just ways for the wealthy to control us. A man's actions speak volumes about him, the bonds of brotherhood and friendship are worth far more than an oath or a contract. Lars would follow Jakes into the gates of hell itself but he would hever obey an order than harmed an innocent although he hopes Jakes would never ask. Lars loves adventure more than anything, that and the spray of the sea or the touch of a woman's lips and he's happy.

Again simple D&D PC you can grok his alignment immediately.

Now I think these sorts of descriptions are more useful than "alignment" but if I have a few dozen NPCs and i don't want to do this work then a simple label Neutral, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil is much faster.
For PCs these sorts of descriptions tie them to an alignment without them having to write it down. So when the Priest of Tyr does a detect Law on them to find out if they are suitable candidates for his blessing you know the answer not becuase they wrote LN on their character sheet but becuase they wrote, "Madatishi regards order and duty as more important than any one's life or beliefs even his own."

I think you can 'justify' any chosen alignment depending on which aspect you arbitrarily decide is important at the moment...  

For example:

Aric believes that his word is his bond.  He doesn't give a promise lightly, but when he does, he never breaks it.  He has sworn an oath to his wife, so he is a devoted family man.  He works with his neighborhood council and benefits the community.  However, he has no respect for 'outsiders' trying to tell him what to do.  He never swore an oath to the king, and he didn't vote for the man, so he doesn't respect the office or the officers.  Any 'official' making trouble in his neighborhood is likely to find himself beaten in a dark alley if he's not careful.  

Hell, that's not too far from a Survivalist Militiaman...  They are 'lawful' in that they accept some authority, but they don't accept what the consensus agrees is the lawful authority.  

People are too complex to be easily described by two letter.  Now four letters - then you might be getting somewhere.  We could describe all our NPCs with Meyers-Briggs designations.  

Introvert (i)/Extrovert (e)
Intuitive (n)/Subjective (s)
Feeling (f)/Thinking (t)
Judging (j)/Perceiving (p)

Quote from: jhkim;690299Robin Hood has been cited as a classic example of good in official D&D products, and repeated frequently ( such as at http://easydamus.com/alignment.html ).  I don't care whether you are right versus them, but the point is that it isn't so easy to classify even for classic, iconic characters.  

Most people forget the "keeping his oath to the true king" bit.  At any rate, I don't like the terms "Lawful" and "Chaotic", as they place too much emphasis on the "law" part.  If I could rename them, I'd probably use something like "Ordered" vs. "Freedom".

Quote from: jibbajibba;690394My point really was we classify people in much broader bands in the Real world bands with much fuzzier edges.

Yeah, and that's how I treat alignments, anyway.  I don't know why everybody seems to believe that they have to be so strict on the lines.

And heck, even a Good person may perform an Evil act, give sufficient duress - the real difference between a Good and Evil person doing so is how they react after the fact.  A good person may steal bread to feed his family if he's exhausted all other options, but will feel like crap about it and attempt to make amends after the fact.

An evil person will just grab the bread because he's a bit peckish, even though he's got plenty of coin, and won't give it a second thought.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;690404Hell, that's not too far from a Survivalist Militiaman...  They are 'lawful' in that they accept some authority, but they don't accept what the consensus agrees is the lawful authority.

Yeah, again, I don't really like "Lawful" as it's usually not *primarily* about the law, but rather a desire for order and structure.  Law is just usually the most obvious example of order/structure.