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Author Topic: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?  (Read 6617 times)

Jaeger

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2022, 03:14:22 PM »
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So my point is that the math needs to cap it.  How that gets implemented in the game system is not limited to an explicit cap.

I agree that it is not limited to an explicit cap. Having limits on PC HP like in RuneQuest is just one solution.

And given its widespread implementation among non-D&D games it is one that works fairly well.

The whole reason I bring it up is that going to a RQ style HP model for OSR games is almost never talked about as a possible solution when hacking the OGL system.


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Of those, I know Shadownrun best.  I don't think Hit Boxes directly compare to Hit Points as they're usually used.  If you have 10 hit boxes, each box can be thought of as 10% of your health total.  It's very clear that a very tough troll can take a lot more punishment than a very svelte (non-tough) elf.  If the same hit is 4 boxes of damage to one person, but only 1 box of damage to another person, you're abstracting 'hit points' very differently to the standard conceit (a pile of survivable hits that are ablated by each incoming attack). 
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You are not understanding my point then. I'm talking hit points the way they are used in the games I listed where I said they have a more or less fixed total.

Of course there will be variation of HP between a PC troll vs a PC Elf. I shouldn't have had to spell that out; it's self-evident from the game examples I cited.

SR hit boxes, RQ hit points, Cyberpunk Life points = all HP by different names. The difference is that  they all use the HP = meat point model because what a PC has at the start of the game tends to not vary much during the course of play.

D&D has a rationalization for HP - yet even the way D&D does HP is very gamist, and gets downright nonsensical at high levels. The 100' jump, or lava walk done by PC's because they have the HP to survive it has been a classic joke/trope among players for decades now.
 
Most newbies these days thinks of HP = meat points. You can say that  HP is representative of this or that but CRPG videogames have killed that perception, because they explicitly use them as meat points that go down as you take damage. And people have by and large accepted the conceit that more HP = 'superhero' style resilience to absorbing blows.
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deadDMwalking

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2022, 04:10:56 PM »
SR hit boxes, RQ hit points, Cyberpunk Life points = all HP by different names. The difference is that  they all use the HP = meat point model because what a PC has at the start of the game tends to not vary much during the course of play.

I think that there are lots of ways to potentially model 'taking damage', and hit points are a well-accepted example of that.  I don't think that Hit Boxes are 'just' hit points by a different name. 

When you play Doom you don't have hit points that count up to infinite levels.  You have 100% maximum health and you don't get increased health (generally).  While that might count as an example of 'not getting tougher', that's a different way of tracking damage than hit points.  Calling it a hit point system causes needless confusion. 

The OP is about whether or not armor creates hit point bloat, so the conversation is automatically about how different ways of modeling attack/damage have different consequences for how you should track attack/damage. 

If your weapons do 'hit point damage' and you apply that damage directly to a 'hit point total', it's very clear you have a hit point system.  If you have a system where weapons do 'trauma' and trauma is resisted/negated then applied to a condition track, that's NOT a hit point system.  Even if it does 'largely the same thing'. 
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Jason Coplen

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2022, 05:13:44 PM »


I agree that it is not limited to an explicit cap. Having limits on PC HP like in RuneQuest is just one solution.

And given its widespread implementation among non-D&D games it is one that works fairly well.

The whole reason I bring it up is that going to a RQ style HP model for OSR games is almost never talked about as a possible solution when hacking the OGL system.

I've been meaning to try using RQ style HP for an OSR game. But I never seem to get around to implementing it. Or, at least, trying to divvy HP via hit location. Alas, another idea I might not get to.
Running: HarnMaster, Barbaric 2E!, and EABA.

Jaeger

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2022, 06:09:28 PM »
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I've been meaning to try using RQ style HP for an OSR game. But I never seem to get around to implementing it. Or, at least, trying to divvy HP via hit location. Alas, another idea I might not get to.

You can virtually port it straight across: RQ used 1-18 for stats. You just need to figure out how you want to implement the SIZ stat into an OSR PC. I'd just go with assigning a fixed number based on race.

Then hit locations can be done in a 1d10 roll - so you can throw both a d20 and d10 at once.

You don't even need hit locations - you can just do HP the way magic world does and just have one pool of them.

But nobody's done it because BRP fans like to roll under, and can't imagine doing it any other way for the same result. And D&D/OSR fans like escalating HP, and can't imagine doing it any other way, because D&D.

I think that thee is a whole OSR design space to be explored with a RQ style HP Mostly fixed play model, but no one has tapped into that design space yet.
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Cat the Bounty Smuggler

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2022, 06:18:51 PM »
And my point is that is very gamist.  What is the difference between a PC and a monster in terms of 'toughness'? 
Hit Points are not a measure of toughness. They are an abstract measure of combat endurance, how long a combatant can continue to function in combat. If folks want hit points to represent health, toughness, etc, then they need to come up with a new system.

This is essentially the point I was trying to make, but much better stated. Thank you.

Jason Coplen

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2022, 08:49:30 PM »
...

I've been meaning to try using RQ style HP for an OSR game. But I never seem to get around to implementing it. Or, at least, trying to divvy HP via hit location. Alas, another idea I might not get to.

You can virtually port it straight across: RQ used 1-18 for stats. You just need to figure out how you want to implement the SIZ stat into an OSR PC. I'd just go with assigning a fixed number based on race.

Then hit locations can be done in a 1d10 roll - so you can throw both a d20 and d10 at once.

You don't even need hit locations - you can just do HP the way magic world does and just have one pool of them.

But nobody's done it because BRP fans like to roll under, and can't imagine doing it any other way for the same result. And D&D/OSR fans like escalating HP, and can't imagine doing it any other way, because D&D.

I think that thee is a whole OSR design space to be explored with a RQ style HP Mostly fixed play model, but no one has tapped into that design space yet.

I have a hit location die. Heh. I love it!

Magic would need a reworking when it comes to damage or the first fireball will level anyone hit. LOL That would wake the players up in no time flat!
Running: HarnMaster, Barbaric 2E!, and EABA.