I was personally surprised to see DC Adventures nominated in multiple categories, given that the game design was by GR's own admission rushed to meet an arbitrary deadline, incomplete, and inadequately playtested.  And Icons! just says "superhero heartbreaker" to me.

I've had a couple of friends here who have not been very impressed with playing DC Adventures (I haven't played it myself).

Of course, I love ICONS, so I wouldn't say I agree about it being a superhero heartbreaker.

RPGPundit

How do you define a superhero heartbreaker?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;469758How do you define a superhero heartbreaker?

If you define "heartbreaker" as "an amateurish RPG which is 1% a couple of new ideas and 99% a retread of stuff that's been done to death" (which is the definition I grok from Ron Edward's original essay on "fantasy heartbreakers"), I think you're going to have a fairly difficult time finding a non-heartbreaker superhero RPG.

Nonetheless, ICONS can be considered a "tribute game" or "spiritual sucessor" to TSR's old Marvel Superheroes RPG (FASERIP) on several levels. As anyone who's familiar with both systems can attest, the similarities are abundant, an d GMS himself has posted somewhere that they are not at all coincidental.

Kenson has publicly acknowledged that the roots of Icons go back to his attempt to convert MSH to FUDGE. The system was initially put on the Web under the working title "The Superlative System" which I still vaguely remember seeing.

I could explain my opinions, but they stem from larger issues I have with the whole superhero RPG niche; I think it probably deserves a new thread as I don't want to single out Kenson's works specifically for things that I think are endemic problems with the whole field.

For this particular topic, I'll say that I think DCA and Icons! were nominated largely on the basis of their popularity and not any concern for game design.

Quote from: daniel_ream;469818For this particular topic, I'll say that I think DCA and Icons! were nominated largely on the basis of their popularity and not any concern for game design.

I don't really enjoy Icons but I can understand why it's getting the attention it is. As to DCA, look where it's nominated before voicing 'game design' complaints: Best Interior Art and Product of the Year. I can see both and neither one has anything directly to do with the design of the game.

M&M3E is the one that got Best Game and Best Rules. That I can also see as M&M (while not my cup of tea) seems to work for a lot of people.

Quote from: daniel_ream;469818I could explain my opinions, but they stem from larger issues I have with the whole superhero RPG niche; I think it probably deserves a new thread as I don't want to single out Kenson's works specifically for things that I think are endemic problems with the whole field.

You should definitely start that new thread, then!

RPGPundit

Quote from: FrankTrollman;467502I think the Ennies are outside the mainstream these days. They tied themselves thoroughly to the 4e D&D bandwagon and no one cares about Enworld anymore. They have two 4e forums, a blanket rule forbidding people from talking smack about 4e, and you aren't even allowed to talk about 3e D&D or AD&D on any forum (the "Open" forum is not open to D&D or Pathfinder, and their D&D forums are 4e-only). There is seriously more 4e boosterism on Enworld than on WotC's own actual official forums.

How are you supposed to have a role playing game forum maintain relevance when it is actually against the rules to talk about the most popular role playing game in history? The Ennies are an industry award handed out by an insular group that bet everything on New Coke and lost. What. Ever.

-Frank

The forum title you are looking for is "D&D Legacy Discussion". I am sure it was hard for you to find, given it says in the description it's for 3.x discussion as well as other earlier versions.  That forum has the most number of threads and posts too.  54,369, compared to 15,908 for the 4e forum.  Which of course runs contrary to your claim of 4e boosterism.  

Apparently, you're going blind dude. How could you go on a rant about a missing forum when it's the most active forum of a message board?

Quote from: Kinetic;469883M&M3E is the one that got Best Game and Best Rules. That I can also see as M&M (while not my cup of tea) seems to work for a lot of people.

Except DCA and M&M3E are exactly the same game.  They only differ in the interior art, sample characters, and a tiny bit of errata.

RPGPundit, I definitely intend to.  I need to let it percolate a bit until I know exactly how to phrase it, but I think it will be an interesting discussion  (because, you know, people here actually discuss things :-)

I think you're all giving way too much of a FUCK what those people involved in the "INNIES" say they think about what they got paid to review and nominate.

Yes I am implying underhandedness and corruption.  And I still don't give a fuck.

Quote from: daniel_ream;469994Except DCA and M&M3E are exactly the same game.  They only differ in the interior art, sample characters, and a tiny bit of errata.

They are the same system, yes. However, I've got both and there are differences. The errata matters and the game design and rules system in M&M3E is cleaner, with rules clarifications, additions of convenience (damage being in combat chapter for one), and some point cost changes which do make a difference, even if it's small. Errata being included in a rulebook can do a lot for the 'new' product.

Just because DCA fell short (which everyone recognizes) it doesn't mean that M&M3 suffers from the same mistakes because of the more relaxed deadline. I'm not saying that it's perfect (I still don't really dig the game as a whole, never have), but a lot of the issues with DCA are cleaned up in M&M3 so I can understand why it got Best Rules over DCA.