Quote from: Mistwell on August 07, 2022, 01:35:04 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 06, 2022, 09:48:15 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 06, 2022, 09:40:03 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on August 06, 2022, 05:58:37 PM
I can only take so much egotistical, self-righteous, condescending doucheness. 

He said, on a message board run by the self-described "The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords", the RPG Pundit himself.

It wasn't his moniker... Pundit just adopted it after the fact if you want to get technical about it.

Thanks for the [unintended] assist?

You can look at it that way it's a free country... But I'm just attempting to point out that he didn't come up with it the name. Pundit just took it to troll the other side (I would assume. He can correct me if I'm wrong about that).

The title of this thread is really fucking misleading considering it's just a bunch of bickering going on.

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 07, 2022, 01:52:54 PM
The title of this thread is really fucking misleading considering it's just a bunch of bickering going on.

It's kind of relative tho'. I mean, I'm quite enjoying it... 

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 07, 2022, 01:52:54 PM
The title of this thread is really fucking misleading considering it's just a bunch of bickering going on.

That's not really a unique description around here.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 08:59:18 AM

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 08:10:53 AM

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 08:10:29 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 07:20:58 AM

Quote from: SHARK on August 06, 2022, 03:07:29 PM

Greetings!

"Canceling" is bullshit.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Personally, I couldn't give a fig about Zak and all this crappy drama. As he doesn't come across particularly well on the old interwebs (as Venger pointed out).

But what really concerned me, Shark (and I've said this before) was the way Drivethru stopped selling his future books. That to me was the epitome of dangerous and toxic 'cancel culture'. I mean, how can you stop selling a person's work over some 'allegations'? I know that they are a private company, and get to do what they want and all, but I think that's a very shady practice. As an old lefty, I don't like that type of corporate tyranny.

The only people that can make that type of judgment are the courts and it's still ongoing. So at this moment in time, they have no reason to cancel his stuff (IMO).

Depending on what one's view is of 'cancel culture' is, I'm all for it. That is to say, I've personally canceled a number of people. That Fred Hicks buffoon and evilhat for one. I'll never buy another product from them as long as it live.  Which is a shame as I really like Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies, SoTC, and Don't Lose your Head.

So speaking as a neutral party - it's facts over feelings as far as I'm concerned (at this point in time anyway).

You've repeatedly claimed I did something wrong, Rob, and repeatedly dodged any request for proof.

You can complain about any kind of culture you want but you are exactly the problem: you're a person who wants to attack people without proof.  Not drawing a line there--feeling that it's really important that everybody hear your fabrication about someone else--that's the impulse that leads to all this cancellation. You're joining in irrational hate on a random innocent stranger and then disavowing responsibility once some of the people who misguidedly jump on your bandwagon go further down the path of being an online jerk than you have already gone.

You crossed the line between defensible and indefensible long ago, and somehow want to justify being not quite as bad. There's a simple solution: stop doing that and treat people as people.

Your take is "I want to lie about creators, and make up bad things they did"

Their takes is "Look at all the bad things people are saying this creator did, shouldn't they face consequences?"

There's precious little difference there.

What are you on about now? Where did I say YOU actually did something wrong?

I don't care about you or your minute internet drama. My only concern here is drivethru and how they treat their creators. AKA - Satanis, Raggi, Red Room, and others.

So I've no idea what you're on about here.

You start dogpiling on other troll comments here: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/enjoy/255/ and keep on throughout this thread.

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 02:25:25 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 08:59:18 AM

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 08:10:53 AM

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 08:10:29 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 07:20:58 AM

Quote from: SHARK on August 06, 2022, 03:07:29 PM

Greetings!

"Canceling" is bullshit.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Personally, I couldn't give a fig about Zak and all this crappy drama. As he doesn't come across particularly well on the old interwebs (as Venger pointed out).

But what really concerned me, Shark (and I've said this before) was the way Drivethru stopped selling his future books. That to me was the epitome of dangerous and toxic 'cancel culture'. I mean, how can you stop selling a person's work over some 'allegations'? I know that they are a private company, and get to do what they want and all, but I think that's a very shady practice. As an old lefty, I don't like that type of corporate tyranny.

The only people that can make that type of judgment are the courts and it's still ongoing. So at this moment in time, they have no reason to cancel his stuff (IMO).

Depending on what one's view is of 'cancel culture' is, I'm all for it. That is to say, I've personally canceled a number of people. That Fred Hicks buffoon and evilhat for one. I'll never buy another product from them as long as it live.  Which is a shame as I really like Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies, SoTC, and Don't Lose your Head.

So speaking as a neutral party - it's facts over feelings as far as I'm concerned (at this point in time anyway).

You've repeatedly claimed I did something wrong, Rob, and repeatedly dodged any request for proof.

You can complain about any kind of culture you want but you are exactly the problem: you're a person who wants to attack people without proof.  Not drawing a line there--feeling that it's really important that everybody hear your fabrication about someone else--that's the impulse that leads to all this cancellation. You're joining in irrational hate on a random innocent stranger and then disavowing responsibility once some of the people who misguidedly jump on your bandwagon go further down the path of being an online jerk than you have already gone.

You crossed the line between defensible and indefensible long ago, and somehow want to justify being not quite as bad. There's a simple solution: stop doing that and treat people as people.

Your take is "I want to lie about creators, and make up bad things they did"

Their takes is "Look at all the bad things people are saying this creator did, shouldn't they face consequences?"

There's precious little difference there.

What are you on about now? Where did I say YOU actually did something wrong?

I don't care about you or your minute internet drama. My only concern here is drivethru and how they treat their creators. AKA - Satanis, Raggi, Red Room, and others.

So I've no idea what you're on about here.

You start dogpiling on other troll comments here: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/enjoy/255/ and keep on throughout this thread.

Oh, thanks for that... But where did I say "YOU" did something wrong? That's what you said or implied I thought? All I'm just saying is that I don't particularly like you and only because of your interweb attitude and your responce to me when I asked for info on my KS for Demon City. You were quite kurt if I remember correctly, not that I'm going to hunt for that post because I've got better things to do.

This being a public forum I'm happy to respond to posts, like Shark's, Venger, and the OP. In fact, I was talking to Shark originally and you started asking me "for proof" of what, I'm still trying to work out. If you look I've only started responding to 'you' when you asked for "proof" of something. Of whatever that is I still don't know.

I simply don't ever talk to you 'diretly' because I don't particularly like you. And when I say 'I don't support' Drivethru's policy. It's the 'concept' I don't really agree with. You just happen to fall within that remit.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 03:26:05 PM

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 02:25:25 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 08:59:18 AM

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 08:10:53 AM

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 08:10:29 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 07:20:58 AM

Quote from: SHARK on August 06, 2022, 03:07:29 PM

Greetings!

"Canceling" is bullshit.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Personally, I couldn't give a fig about Zak and all this crappy drama. As he doesn't come across particularly well on the old interwebs (as Venger pointed out).

But what really concerned me, Shark (and I've said this before) was the way Drivethru stopped selling his future books. That to me was the epitome of dangerous and toxic 'cancel culture'. I mean, how can you stop selling a person's work over some 'allegations'? I know that they are a private company, and get to do what they want and all, but I think that's a very shady practice. As an old lefty, I don't like that type of corporate tyranny.

The only people that can make that type of judgment are the courts and it's still ongoing. So at this moment in time, they have no reason to cancel his stuff (IMO).

Depending on what one's view is of 'cancel culture' is, I'm all for it. That is to say, I've personally canceled a number of people. That Fred Hicks buffoon and evilhat for one. I'll never buy another product from them as long as it live.  Which is a shame as I really like Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies, SoTC, and Don't Lose your Head.

So speaking as a neutral party - it's facts over feelings as far as I'm concerned (at this point in time anyway).

You've repeatedly claimed I did something wrong, Rob, and repeatedly dodged any request for proof.

You can complain about any kind of culture you want but you are exactly the problem: you're a person who wants to attack people without proof.  Not drawing a line there--feeling that it's really important that everybody hear your fabrication about someone else--that's the impulse that leads to all this cancellation. You're joining in irrational hate on a random innocent stranger and then disavowing responsibility once some of the people who misguidedly jump on your bandwagon go further down the path of being an online jerk than you have already gone.

You crossed the line between defensible and indefensible long ago, and somehow want to justify being not quite as bad. There's a simple solution: stop doing that and treat people as people.

Your take is "I want to lie about creators, and make up bad things they did"

Their takes is "Look at all the bad things people are saying this creator did, shouldn't they face consequences?"

There's precious little difference there.

What are you on about now? Where did I say YOU actually did something wrong?

I don't care about you or your minute internet drama. My only concern here is drivethru and how they treat their creators. AKA - Satanis, Raggi, Red Room, and others.

So I've no idea what you're on about here.

You start dogpiling on other troll comments here: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/enjoy/255/ and keep on throughout this thread.

Oh, thanks for that... But where did I say "YOU" did something wrong? That's what you said or implied I thought? All I'm just saying is that I don't particularly like you and only because of your interweb attitude and your responce to me when I asked for info on my KS for Demon City. You were quite kurt if I remember correctly, not that I'm going to hunt for that post because I've got better things to do.

This being a public forum I'm happy to respond to posts, like Shark's, Venger, and the OP. In fact, I was talking to Shark originally and you started asking me "for proof" of what, I'm still trying to work out. If you look I've only started responding to 'you' when you asked for "proof" of something. Of whatever that is I still don't know.

I simply don't ever talk to you 'diretly' because I don't particularly like you. And when I say 'I don't support' Drivethru's policy. It's the 'concept' I don't really agree with. You just happen to fall within that remit.

Great, awesome!

So you've clarified and that's good:

-You decided you don't like me (which is fine) for no real reason you can't articulate (which is fine). People are allowed to do that.

-And all the shit on previous pages where you appeared to be supporting people claiming I had a whole DSM-worth of personality issues, including being manipulative et al or unnecessarily unkind to fans and/or creators, that wasn't really you supporting them in that. Despite what it might look like, you aren't actually backing up those bizarre accusations. If somebody keeps saying them, and you keep going "Yeah, totally" then that would be a contradiction. I'm glad to hear that wasn't what you were doing.

-If you did or do have some problem with stuff for the Kickstarter, please do let me know.

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 04:04:01 PM
-And all the shit on previous pages where you appeared to be supporting people claiming I had a whole DSM-worth of personality issues, including being manipulative et al or unnecessarily unkind to fans and/or creators, that wasn't really you supporting them in that. Despite what it might look like, you aren't actually backing up those bizarre accusations. If somebody keeps saying them, and you keep going "Yeah, totally" then that would be a contradiction. I'm glad to hear that wasn't what you were doing.

Please show me where I said that.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 06:46:29 PM

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 04:04:01 PM
-And all the shit on previous pages where you appeared to be supporting people claiming I had a whole DSM-worth of personality issues, including being manipulative et al or unnecessarily unkind to fans and/or creators, that wasn't really you supporting them in that. Despite what it might look like, you aren't actually backing up those bizarre accusations. If somebody keeps saying them, and you keep going "Yeah, totally" then that would be a contradiction. I'm glad to hear that wasn't what you were doing.

Please show me where I said that.

I haven't made a statement about "what you said" I made a statement about what you appeared to be saying.

You appeared to be saying that kind of thing for the last few pages, for example: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/enjoy/285/

But, as I clarified:

We are all, I am sure, very glad to see you weren't saying that, weren't supporting that, and--I am sure--now have nothing but contempt for anyone who might be doing that kind of thing.

This is all good to know, and, again--I super-appreciate how cooperative you've been in clarifying.

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 07:17:20 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 06:46:29 PM

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 04:04:01 PM
-And all the shit on previous pages where you appeared to be supporting people claiming I had a whole DSM-worth of personality issues, including being manipulative et al or unnecessarily unkind to fans and/or creators, that wasn't really you supporting them in that. Despite what it might look like, you aren't actually backing up those bizarre accusations. If somebody keeps saying them, and you keep going "Yeah, totally" then that would be a contradiction. I'm glad to hear that wasn't what you were doing.

Please show me where I said that.

I haven't made a statement about "what you said" I made a statement about what you appeared to be saying.

You appeared to be saying that kind of thing for the last few pages, for example: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/enjoy/285/

But, as I clarified:

We are all, I am sure, very glad to see you weren't saying that, weren't supporting that, and--I am sure--now have nothing but contempt for anyone who might be doing that kind of thing.

This is all good to know, and, again--I super-appreciate how cooperative you've been in clarifying.

One sec.

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 04:04:01 PM
-And all the shit on previous pages where you appeared to be supporting people claiming

Ah, I see what you did there you say "appeared". Nice a bit of a non-comital dodge there imo.

But I think I finally see what you are getting to. Basically, you appear think that I'm endorsing what people are saying about you.

That's not technically the case. You're adding 1 + 1 and getting 64. But it's typical internet. People infer shit without actually true understanding. Basically, I don't think you're a particularly nice person and I'm chiming in saying shit like 'damn straight' or whatever. But, so what? There are a ton of people here just ripping into you. If you were nicer to people online I think you'd have a lot more support. But... You do you.

However, to set the record straight (again). I can't really say anything about 'your personality' per se, that is - if you have any disorder(s) or not. I'm not a trained psychologist. Plus I don't really care... I'm sure you couldn't give a shit about my disorders. I'm merely supporting people that are giving you a little grief. Because you don't seem like a very nice person to me. As I said you were rude to me in the past so I'm just returning the favor, and that has nothing to do with your latest court drama. That's none of my business and what do I care anyway?

But I still support your right to a 'fair day' in court and I still stand against drivethru for their actions by condemning you on just 'alegaitons'. In my opinion, I don't think any action should be taken against you until all is said and done. It's basically me standing up for the system (for once).

I keep saying the same thing over and over.

By the way, I most certainly did let you know that I had a problem with the KS. I'll do it again since you asked so nicely. Where's my book (.pdf)? Is the main problem considering it was supposed to be released in 2019, wasn't it?

And I certainly did tell you why I don't like you (or one of the reasons). Basically, you were rude to me when I asked you about the KS (on this very forum) not so long ago. Did I answer your question? I think so...

You seem to be implying that I'm not answering your questions when I blatantly am. But that's the internet for you - You're allowed to do that 'for no particular reason'. It's easier to put that under the carpet and go for a gish gallop.

At the end of the day... I'm very much enjoying this thread.

So carry on.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 07:29:19 PM

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 04:04:01 PM
-And all the shit on previous pages where you appeared to be supporting people claiming

Ah, I see what you did there you say "appeared". Nice a bit of a non-comital dodge there imo.

Ok, this is an example of spreading misinformation:


That's neither a dodge nor noncommittal, it is a straightforward statement: you appeared to be doing something you have attempted to clarify you were not doing.

That' no more a "dodge" or "noncommital" than saying someone wearing a police uniform who isn't appears to be a cop: its an absolute, unclarifiably simple description of lived reality.

Please don't spread misinformation on the internet.

QuoteIf you were nicer to people online I think you'd have a lot more support.

It's important to do the right thing even when it's unpopular. If you're nice to bad actors, then that's bad.

QuoteAs I said you were rude to me in the past so I'm just returning the favor.

We can't evaluate the truth of this statement since you can't produce the interaction.

I certainly can't imagine any reason I'd be unkind to you for no good reason.

Quote
By the way, I most certainly did let you know that I had a problem with the KS. I'll do it again since you asked so nicely. Where's my book? Is the main problem considering it was supposed to be released in 2019, wasn't it?

I can certainly answer this:

1. The game was finished a while ago--at that point I'd done all the art and writing I expected to need to do.

2. Then there was the Kickstarter, there were some rewards--add-ons by other authors (as one might expect) and I did a little work to get those integrated. It didn't take long, less than a month.

3. My obligations were done, except for checking on other peoples' work

4. Then the harassment campaign began in earnest (Feb 2019). This affected my work on Demon City very little because I had done my stuff already.

5. The book's officially in the hands of the layout guy--Shawn--who's been making 400-odd very beautiful pages very slowly. Occasionally he asked me for extra pictures, which I provided.

For some reason instead of complaining to Shawn or to the project manager, Mike, lots of people complain to me--as if somehow I was laying out or publishing my own book.

6. Last month I proofread the final spreads. We decided, for clarity's sake, to do a few things that would be helpful to the reader like make the "What happens when you go below zero Toughness" into a flowchart and making sure every time we use a piece of game jargon its capitalized. These are tasks for the graphic designer, not Zak.

7. Shawn is finalizing those spreads now.

8. After that he gives it to Mike, who then has to handle printing in a post-shipping-crisis world but everyone else is managing to get their books printed so I'm sure he'll find a solution.

9. In the meantime, while I wait, I wrote a free, fully-illustrated 30-page module for backers--I mentioned this in the KS comments. If you want it, say so.

QuoteAnd I certainly did tell you why I don't like you (or one of the reasons). Basically, you were rude to me when I asked you about the KS (on this very forum) not so long ago. Did I answer your question? I think so.

No, you didn't provide the quote. We need the proof.

QuoteIt's easier to put that under the carpet and go for a gish gallop.

A "gish gallop" is an uncheckably large series of false statements given as evidence to support a false premise.

So, I didn't do that and you're spreading misinformation again.

So while at first I thought you were clarifying that you hadn't done the terrible thing you at first appeared to be doing, regardless of what you say, the second you wrote that I was doing a "noncommittal dodge" or a "gish gallop" you are exactly what I said you are:

A bad person on the internet making false accusations of terrible behavior who is apparently grumpy that other people who make similar false accusations believe in severe consequences for the made-up terrible behavior.

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 07:46:39 PM
A bad person on the internet making false accusations of terrible behavior who is apparently grumpy that other people who make similar false accusations believe in severe consequences for the made-up terrible behavior.

Riiiiight... Well, I clarified my position, and I don't really care what you think. I'm stating 'my opinions' only - so I won't be running around trying to copy and paste shit for you. Take it or leave it. It's that simple.

Well, complaining to you seems the right thing to do, as it's pretty much your Kickstarter (which is now obnoxiously late!). At the end of the day, I don't care who's responsible, I paid money and you guys said it would be released in 2019. But it's wasn't. Of course, I don't mind if it's a few months late or a bit longer but this is very poor indeed. Would you not agree?

Well, at least you answered my question about the KS which I actually appreciate.

However, I did contact the DIY guys recently because I had to change my original backer email address (as it went kaput). And they were super cool about it. So I'm pretty happy with my communications with those dudes.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 08:06:42 PMI'm stating 'my opinions' only

Saying something is an attempt to evade it's not solely an opinion: you are making a (false) claim about motive.

Saying something is a "gish gallop" is not solely an opinion: it by definition is a claim that my concluson is false and the information I used to support it is false.

It's like you're saying "You're a redhead that's just my opinion".

Or: "You are on this website in order to draw people into a pyramid scheme that's just my opinion"

You aren't telling the truth.

QuoteOf course, I don't mind if it's a few months late or a bit longer but this is very poor indeed. Would you not agree?

It's not up to me. I like what Shawn's been doing, and if he were to say the only way to get work that good is to make the Kickstarter really late I'd have a hard time deciding.

Quote from: Zak S on August 07, 2022, 08:19:49 PM
You aren't telling the truth.

I see... You are entitled to your opinion of course. 

But I'm still enjoying this thread. It's very enlightening...