So, after my latest session where one of the players tried to carry 10 days worth of food into the wilderness on top of everything else, I decided to apply the oft-ignored encumbrance rules, because this part of the game we're in specifically is all about resource management.
I expected the players to dislike it, but they were actually quite pleased by it. One wondered why we had never used it before, and another marveled at how much stupid useless shit he was carrying.
They're going to sort all of that out before the next session.
My question is, though, about how they can carry around all of their belongings. For those of you who are familiar with this kind of gameplay, how do you handle the secondary elements that carry around the equipment?
For instance, do you have to go out of your way to buy sacs and pouches for all of the random stuff you have, or is it just assumed that you had some when you bought your random items at the shop. Are the players going to need to go buy 10 pouches each, etc.
Secondly, suppose they carry enough so that they are encumbered. The players' plan is to just carry as heavy a load as they please and then just drop it once combat starts, and pick it up later again. To me, that seems logical, but also like it trivializes the entire exercise. What is the point of tracking encumbrance if you just carry the same heavy stuff all over the place and then don't have any consequences when it would matter?
I must be missing something there. Is it supposed to take a while to remove all of that excess weight? I suppose if they were in like 8 different sacs and bags it might... I just want the "encumbrance game" to have actual interesting effects rather than be something that gets solved after five minutes of finding a workaround.
We used to do that back in the 80:s.
Its not a problem unless you plan to retreat.
Dropping your backpack while carrying a shield might take a while.
Well, keep in mind that even a professional hiker with a $300 external frame backpack made out of titanium and space-age polymers can't just slap a buckle and the whole thing magically falls away like it's a morphing transformer. It takes a while to get in and out of those things, especially if you're also wearing armor. Absolute bare minimum one round/action whatever you have in your game, probably several. If the player says they're just tying rope to it and holding the ropes over their shoulders, they are going to get tired doing that. Fatigue their ass and make them carry it properly.
Also keep in mind, they're not Backpacks of Holding, it's not just weight, but volume. Here's where you're going to have to just eyeball it. But remember it's rope, leather and maybe steel, not any form of modern synthetic material. A bigass framed backpack is going to weigh a lot itself and to be useful is going to be rigid - when you try and stuff it, it isn't going to give very much.
Get out of the backpack (a couple of actions at least), open it up (another one), rummage through it (a few more), and find something...multiple rounds/actions at the very least.
You get ambushed in combat with those on...you're in some trouble.
At some tables the players would have non-com retainers to carry the excess, or everything.
At others the players would leave all their stuff at a base camp and have retainers stay there and guard that.
At others the players would just range out from a central base town and carry the minimum needed. Leaving everything else at their homes.
And at others the players try to carry it all and here you get situations of players wanting to drop the pack to unburden themselves for combat. And here you have to point out that getting in and out of a pack takes time. If its an unencumbering load then say 2-5 rounds. But if its an encumbering load then treat it as trying to doff armour. At least a whole minute (10 rounds). Its also going to take a while to get back into it.
The reason why is that a pack has to be balanced to travel otherwise its little better than a sack. Moreso with a heavily burdened pack.
One of the reasons my characters set out to buy a caravan mobile home. Park that someplace safe(ish) and leave the supplies there. Also great for travel from city to city. Jan on the other hand likes to hit up shops to try and nab bags of holding. Or in 5e she scouted for someone to make one for her. Which became a sort of mini-quest for some components.
Also dropped packs can end up forgotten or snatched. And worst of all. Once dropped it doesnt enjoy your PCs saving throws and HP anymore. One stray lightning bolt later and Ka-bloom! Stuff everywhere.
Quote from: zx81;938266We used to do that back in the 80:s.
Its not a problem unless you plan to retreat.
Dropping your backpack while carrying a shield might take a while.
Did you aslo use exposure rules? There doesn't seem to me to be much point in tracking mundane equipment in great detail unless its really important.
You are entering an releam where you could slay the beholder but die of expousue cause your backpack with your wool sweater was turned to stone, and you got rained on.
You are also entering an area where real world knoledge is very very relevent. Do you spend much time in the back country? Do your players?
Realize carts and caravans were very much a thing for good reason. :) Also, hugging known sources of water as much as possible because that shit's heavy, yo! Soon you will find large stretches of unwatered, uninhabited tracts of wastes best crossed by appropriate beasts of burden and careful trail following.
It only works though if you put the kibosh on certain spells, naturally.
Quote from: Headless;938298Did you aslo use exposure rules? There doesn't seem to me to be much point in tracking mundane equipment in great detail unless its really important.
You are entering an releam where you could slay the beholder but die of expousue cause your backpack with your wool sweater was turned to stone, and you got rained on.
You are also entering an area where real world knoledge is very very relevent. Do you spend much time in the back country? Do your players?
I don't have much outsider knowledge, but a lot of my friends were Boy Scouts as kids and they gave me input as I figured out the difficulty of things. For instance, at one point I suggested that they would have to carry 10 pounds worth of food each day, and they pointed out it would be more like 5 pounds.
Strangely enough so far they're having fun with all of this stuff, maybe because it takes them back to the Boy Scout days, and it adds an extra level of immersion to be tangling with something that you did with your very own hands in real life.
Quote from: Opaopajr;938328Realize carts and caravans were very much a thing for good reason. :) Also, hugging known sources of water as much as possible because that shit's heavy, yo! Soon you will find large stretches of unwatered, uninhabited tracts of wastes best crossed by appropriate beasts of burden and careful trail following.
It only works though if you put the kibosh on certain spells, naturally.
Heh, one of my friends decided to take the Goodberry spell recently, realizing it was actually useful now. So that pretty much eliminates food woes... but it's mid-game. Can't just rule the spell out. Plus I'm sure that I can still pressure them anyway.
It's been fun watching them suddenly "discover" aspects of their toolsets they had all along but never actually thought would be useful, as I began to press them with these hardships. Stuff like the Daylight spell.
This is why you hire NPC retainer porters.
Goodberry can be curbed in two ways in game.
1: It needs mistletoe. If not propperly packed it will lose its potency. And even well packed it will eventually wither and be useless.
2: Like cleric spells. Druids may find that any spell or cantrip can become unavailible based on the locale or other factors. Such as a blighted zone, no-magic zones. Or just at the whim of mother nature. Trying to find pockets where the spell still works. Or just fixing the area can become an adventure on its own. For example an evil priest has cast a curse on the land and all preserved plants and foods wither away. Or a spell war has depleted the mana in the area and spells just dont work there. DMG added those.
Quote from: Omega;9397652: Like cleric spells. Druids may find that any spell or cantrip can become unavailible based on the locale or other factors. Such as a blighted zone, no-magic zones. Or just at the whim of mother nature. Trying to find pockets where the spell still works. Or just fixing the area can become an adventure on its own. For example an evil priest has cast a curse on the land and all preserved plants and foods wither away. Or a spell war has depleted the mana in the area and spells just dont work there. DMG added those.
That's exactly what the situation is. Evil Druid overseeing a Blight because he favors rampant nature over civilization, now the party is in the middle of it and trying to stop it. No normal plants or animals around, it's man VS the wilderness. So they're using Goodberry.
I don't necessarily think it's bad, because, that's what a spell like this is for, isn't it. So if it basically eliminates the "food" portion of the game maybe it's just an excuse for Goodberry to shine.
Mistletoe being scarce could work, but in 5e doesn't everyone basically have a component pouch where all of their spell components are assumed to be there. Or a Druidic focus.
Some components are perishable. Which is something 5e fails to address. You still get alot of use from it. But eventually it needs to be replenished. (Mistletoe just carried around will last 1-3 weeks.)
Note though that packing goodberry and using it every day for the whole party is using up the casters 1st level slots. Probably only one. But could take multiple castings to cover everyone if the Druid keeps rolling low. 1d10 as per rules.
As for component pouches and focuses. Keep in mind that the pouch is not some magical ever replenishing gadget. Any perishables in it will eventually give up the ghost and need replacing. Its like the wizards spellbook and scribing new spells. Without the components they cant do anything.
The Focus though... ugh. I hate that addition. But yeah it can bypass the component problem totally.
Quote from: Omega;939852The Focus though... ugh. I hate that addition. But yeah it can bypass the component problem totally.
Thats its whole point. Its for people that doen't want to do tedious ingeadiant shoping.
I dont think that translates well to role playing. It works in books, works even better in computer games. Not so much in table top.
I suppose you could just have it blow up or burn or something during an attack if it happens to be the type that would burn wood.
But I had no idea Goodberry was d10 berries. I thought it was just a flat 10 that appear out of thin air.
Nope. Says "up to ten berries appear" which is RPG speak for "roll a d10"
As for the focuses. Note that all the Druid focuses are made of wood. A sprig of mistletoe is a twig with some leaves and (usually) berries. There used to be a spell called "Rot Wood".
(http://www.ecoenchantments.co.uk/images/Ogham%20trees/mistletoe_sprig-small.jpg)
And finally. The PHB notes that any spell that requires a component with a cost cannot be substituted with a focus. The sprig of mistletoe has a listed cost of 1gp in the equipment section.
Here in not-so-sunny Michigoom we have parasitic dwarf mistletoe.
(http://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/HungryPlanet/Chapter12/Article%20Images/C12.21.jpg)
I think it means that if it has a cost listed in the actual component part of the spell, like, "a diamond worth 500gp" for Raise Dead, not that literally anything that has a price listed in the PHB elsewhere counts.
But if so that would change a lot...
Unfortunately not a whole lot. Aside from the mistletoe theres few other spells that call back for an item from the equipment list.
The bell needed for Alarm, any spell needing a vial of holy water, like Commune and Dispel Evil.
Im not done with my list yet but those three are so far it. The rest are arguably available as scraps.
Quote from: Omega;939893Nope. Says "up to ten berries appear" which is RPG speak for "roll a d10"
That's an interpretation I wouldn't have applied.
Yeah, the other way of looking at it would be that it's the player's choice to create 1-10 berries.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;939978Yeah, the other way of looking at it would be that it's the player's choice to create 1-10 berries.
You mean the retarded way?
I'm pretty sure that's how it was intended, since in every other instance the rules state what dice to roll if you need to roll it. Like it doesn't say "take up to 6 damage," it'll say, take 1d6 damage.
I suppose here though there's some leeway: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/05/how-many-goodberries/
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;940012I'm pretty sure that's how it was intended, since in every other instance the rules state what dice to roll if you need to roll it. Like it doesn't say "take up to 6 damage," it'll say, take 1d6 damage.
I suppose here though there's some leeway: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/05/how-many-goodberries/
Why would you voluntarily make less than 10 if it uses the same components either way? The idea itself is idiotic.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;940012I'm pretty sure that's how it was intended, since in every other instance the rules state what dice to roll if you need to roll it. Like it doesn't say "take up to 6 damage," it'll say, take 1d6 damage.
I suppose here though there's some leeway: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/05/how-many-goodberries/
Because it goes against standing RPG notation and throws wide open all manner of rules lawyering about anything that doesnt specifically say XdX.
And using Crawford as your validation is a known failure as Mearls will often say the exact opposite. And too many of Crawfords answers are contradictory. Which only worsens the problem.
Quote from: CRKrueger;940016Why would you voluntarily make less than 10 if it uses the same components either way? The idea itself is idiotic.
The explanation I was told was that maybe you want to RP being selfish, or need to hide using magic so you only use the bare minimum you can eat quickly.
But yeah I don't think it's a big deal. I just wonder why it didn't just say d10 berries instead of up to 10.
edit: Ah, the spell Bless uses the same notation. "Up to three," but that obviously means the player chooses between 0-3 rather than rolling.
http://engl393-dnd5th.wikia.com/wiki/Bless
Hmmm.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;940031The explanation I was told was that maybe you want to RP being selfish, or need to hide using magic so you only use the bare minimum you can eat quickly.
But yeah I don't think it's a big deal. I just wonder why it didn't just say d10 berries instead of up to 10.
edit: Ah, the spell Bless uses the same notation. "Up to three," but that obviously means the player chooses between 0-3 rather than rolling.
http://engl393-dnd5th.wikia.com/wiki/Bless
Hmmm.
Hmm is right. The Bless is obvious, you can't Bless more people than there are people there, and it can't be more than 3, and maybe you only want to Bless one of the three. Do the berries stick around still, so you can save them for later (in case you run into some poor starving children)? If so, the idea that you would make less is just weird.
Quote from: CRKrueger;940033Do the berries stick around still, so you can save them for later (in case you run into some poor starving children)? If so, the idea that you would make less is just weird.
24 hours then lose their power. Guess youd still have 10 (poisonous) mistletoe berries at least?
Though to be fair. It could be that the spell makes one berry per person present at the time of casting. 10 max.
Quote from: Omega;94006824 hours then lose their power. Guess youd still have 10 (poisonous) mistletoe berries at least?
Though to be fair. It could be that the spell makes one berry per person present at the time of casting. 10 max.