I don't play with minis, never really did outside of a few GMs who insisted. I think if I were 12 years old, that DF stuff would be way cool, but I didn't play RPGs until I was 21, and I'm 50 now. When I really need to know where something is, I use paper or coins or dice or whatever - doesn't have to be representational at all.

-clash

Honestly, I think this introduces a new axis along the lines of "role vs. roll", "traditional" vs "indie", "old school" vs "new school", etc.  And that axis is "playing an RPG" vs "playing with action figures and dolls".

That sounds rather deragatory. But I´d be interested in a more well thought out essay on that.

See, I´m all for the Method of Roleplay and Power of Imagination, as well as the unlimited bidget my mind-movies have.

But it´s too easy to dismiss this stuff, without being honest. What do I miss?
Am I just too lazy?

I think these are important questions.

Jeff´s point is the biggest against that particular stuff, I think. It looks better than it plays, because of usability problems.

Quote from: SettembriniThat sounds rather deragatory. But I´d be interested in a more well thought out essay on that.

I appreciate your giving me the benefit of the doubt, but it really was just a passive-aggressive (something that I do WAY too much of...sorry about that) way of being deragatory...

I mean, I have reasons why I don't like these intricate setups, but I'm not feeling too well -- and I'm rather lazy and shiftless to begin with -- to detail them, and they're everything everyone's read before and, depending on how you read them, boil down to either "get the fatbeards outta here" or "gamers hating on gamers."

This whole alleged fatbeard culture and social stigma of RPGs really is something.
Glad it´s not like this over here.

Anyone remember that LSH comic where they're roleplaying with holograms?

That is what I want.

Haters!

The benefits of using 3-d terrain are that

1) tactical encounters can become more interesting when 3-dimensional. After a few encounters of "the two squads of goblins are firing arrows down on you in the courtyard from covered balconies.." the players in my campaign started to get really smart about seizing advantage terrain, using cover, etc.

2)  Everyone is one the same page for tactics. Despite what anyone thinks, you can't all share the same imaginary thought bubble of what's going on. 3-D terrain enables area effect type things (lines, cones, bursts) in the way they were meant to be used. It also eliminates arguments about "where my guy was."

3) It's just more fun, and I'm all about maximizing the fun. It also looks cool.

Now, for the most part, I'm actually just restating Niceophorus' three points (above). Hell yeah, it draws attention to spatial concerns! Thats a bonus.  And hell yeah, it's like playing with toys. (not dolls, not action figures.. but toys). And having toys is cool. Heck, it's cooler than using those unpainted plastic army men I've seen people using. Jonathan Tweet actually uses a big jar of plastic zoo animals for nearly everything.

And the main drawback is setup time. I totally concede this one. It does take more time to setup 3-D stuff. The way I usually do it now is just use a minimum set of units in the same way as a theatrical unit set: a few platforms, an archway or two, 4 pillars and a selection of walls. The doors I have are Grendel 28MM doors- these are standalone, and they fit in the miniature-figure slots in my tacklebox.

These guys were a major influence:
http://www.zeitcom.com/majgen/index.html

It's not a lot of work, it adds an element of craftsmanship to gaming, and the payoff is great.

Quote from: SettembriniThis hole alleged fatbeard culture and social stigma of RPGs really is something.
Glad it´s not like this over here.

Dude, where do you live? Can't say I've been to that many places but from all the Americas and Europe, I haven't been too many places where a grown up keeping a Toys 'R Us at home for himself would be anything but a major embarassment.

There are games and then there are toys. We're past the point where we're talking about games here. I don't know of many cultures that would find grown ups still playing with toys, something normal. Games however, are part of all cultures, well into adulthood.

I think you may be in denial if you think you could have those kind of massive toys home without anyone batting an eye when they visit you. Unless everybody you hang out with has an equally stunted development.

A random visitor will not differentiate between dwarven forge, Warhammer 40k, model trains, airplane models or tin soldiers.
Action figures still in their packaging, that is creepy.

But 3d Terrain or tin soldiers? No way, that´s totally socially acceptable.

Wow, dude, I'm not sure I buy the stunted development angle.  This hobby isn't the only one that has "toy collecting" as an ancillary, and no one looks at those folks as weird.

I've seen people who have whole rooms devoted to their NASCAR scale models (not ones they've made, mind you).  I've seen people who have an entire basement taken up by a kickass slot car setup or train layout.  I've seen people with wall-to-wall Star Wars crap.  I've seen people with rooms devoted to dollhouses and plush animals.

Every single one of these people were normal.  None were the "swine" or "fatbeards" of their social circles.  Most were actually kind of successful.

The NASCAR guy: owns a construction company and you wouldn't want to piss him off.

The slot car guy: is general manager of a golf course and a highly successful investor.

The train guy: works at the main post office in Albany as a supervisor and is an avid outdoorsman (and former Army dude).

Another train guy: an executive for a meat packing company.

The Star Wars guy: a freelance writer and part owner of a company that does medical writing.

The dollhouse gal: a high school teacher who manages a house with four kids and a dog.

Plush collector gal: is actually my girlfriend, so I've no objectivity there.

Sure, you can say that's all "collectible" stuff and that it's different, but it isn't, really.  It's all toys, man.  People like them.

BTW, I find the whole idea of being concerned with "what random visitors would think" pathetic.

What do they do to you in high school?

Surely, I admire  North America, but you totally screw over your teenagers with your popularity games. Get over it.

Quote from: SettembriniJeff´s point is the biggest against that particular stuff, I think. It looks better than it plays, because of usability problems.

This is specific to Dwarven Forge. The walls get in the way and require you to look top down to move figures around. I recommend the floor pieces  and scenery units (pillars, altars, etc) though.

Here's my take on the gamer-hate fatbeard thing:

What actually gets made fun of by normal people are the play acters, and the guys who dress up or talk in a bad accent. Nobody makes fun of model enthusiasts or train hobbyists. My local mega-mall has a Warhammer store and it regularly has crowds of people who gather outside to stare at the dioramas. Most of the Air Force and Army officers I've known have a model or diorama in their office. Every year at Christmas the model train store in the nearby town erects a massive diorama christmas scene. Modeling is a skill that involves actual recognizable talent, and people instinctively respect that.

And I totally agree with Set.

What I suspect is not that gamers are being looked down upon. It simply isn't happening. Instead- a few jackasses are feeling shameful, and it's just stupid.

So why am I not embarassed at having carded Star Wars action figures in my hallway?  Am I doing it wrong?

The D&D Experience documentary features the president of Dwarven Forge, his gaming group, and their comments on using miniatures and why he started building the DF stuff.  

I think if you're using miniatures anyway (eg. D&D 3.x) then you might as well have nice miniatures and props to go with them.  If you prefer to play without miniatures because it gets in the way of your imagining the scene (which one of the players in the D&D Exp. film mentions) then it's not your thing -- and neither are games (eg. D&D 3.x) that require miniatures.

I agree that having packaged action figures around the house is a pretty weird / socially awkward thing to do*.  Having "games" around the house is cool.  So are model trains, airplanes, cars, etc.  D&D can be cool -- but adding miniatures into the mix doesn't make it less cool IMHO.  Having a 3'x4' diorama in your living room might be a bit much... but then again if you've got kids, everything changes again.

Personally, if I was playing a dungeoncrawl game of d&d and there was the option to have a bunch of the DF stuff with nicely painted miniatures, I think it would be a blast.

Edit:  * You may be the exception to the rule, but the people I've met that have packaged action figures in their homes are a bit odd.  YMMV, IMHO, blah blah blah

Why I don't use Terrain/Maps etc - By Grim, age 31 and 1/12th
------------------------------------------------------------

First and foremost, I find they get in the way of RP. You stop thinking about your character and making split second decisions based on what the GM gives you, and instead start playing with 'the monopoly dog' - it's just a playing piece.

Secondly, there's the space it takes up. My gaming library is already massive, terrain and miniatures would eat up what little space I have left.

Thirdly, I don't really have a face-to-face group any more, even if I did, travelling to them with all that junk would be a PITA.

Fourthly, I don't have the time or the inclination to collect miniatures either, or to find and source the ones I need. I've bought a few Privateer Press and Rackham ones because they're pretty, but my painting skills have lapsed and I can't afford to get someone else to do it, and prepainted figs are... well, usually crap.

Yeah, there's a cool/wow factor, but for actual RPing, they just don't work for me. For skirmish and battle games though - cool