Quote from: Bruwulf on December 19, 2022, 05:03:41 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 19, 2022, 02:43:32 PM
I will stick up for D&D: Tower of Doom and Shadow over Mystara as being excellent and fun games.

Yes. Absolutely. Some of the best arcade brawlers ever made, and damned faithful to the property.

As well, the older D&D video games were actually often pretty good. Not all of them, but, for example, the grid-based dungeon crawlers like Eye of the Beholder 1-3 and Dungeon Hack? Great games, for the time.

A four-player game at one of those cabinets is one of the most satisfying and enjoyable experiences in video gaming. And the best part was, you were practically guaranteed to get it every time. Just drop a quarter in the machine and other people would show up to play with you.

The gold and silver box games SSI games were pretty iconic PC RPGs, too. They're just from an era when PC gaming was much more niche due to cost.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 19, 2022, 01:01:39 PM

but but but

Still, Two out of eight is not bad for an elfgame argument on the internet.

Ah the good ol' "nyah nyah nyah! Its not still around!" gag.

Yep. Thats real brilliant.
Name an entertainment field thats still running from its inception even 20 years later other than MTG. Which is gradually faltering.
Cartoons rarely last a year, few last 5, and hardly any last past that. 
D&D has had PC and console games coming out about every other year. AOL Neverwinter was the first graphical MMO out there and would likely still be kicking if AOL had not folded their MMO department. D&D has had probably the most ports of any venue out there aside from maybe some sports games.
Toys. WOTC has for whatever reason hardly ever produced actual toys. Theres been a rare few figures I think. But they seem to mostly just market someone elses toys. Duelmasters? Thats the only one I ever saw.
Wotc till recently, and possible still cant, has been stonewalled by Solomon and could not produce any D&D movies or cartoons. They tried an end-run with Dragonlance and that was sub par. The only cartoon they have ever produced far as I know is for a Duelmaster reboot.

and so on.

Try again please.

Quote from: Corolinth on December 20, 2022, 06:34:29 PM

Quote from: Bruwulf on December 19, 2022, 05:03:41 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 19, 2022, 02:43:32 PM
I will stick up for D&D: Tower of Doom and Shadow over Mystara as being excellent and fun games.

Yes. Absolutely. Some of the best arcade brawlers ever made, and damned faithful to the property.

As well, the older D&D video games were actually often pretty good. Not all of them, but, for example, the grid-based dungeon crawlers like Eye of the Beholder 1-3 and Dungeon Hack? Great games, for the time.

A four-player game at one of those cabinets is one of the most satisfying and enjoyable experiences in video gaming. And the best part was, you were practically guaranteed to get it every time. Just drop a quarter in the machine and other people would show up to play with you.

The gold and silver box games SSI games were pretty iconic PC RPGs, too. They're just from an era when PC gaming was much more niche due to cost.

I know you can grab a combo pack (both Tower of Doom and Shadow over Mystara) off Steam for fifteen bucks. Comes with online functionality and art extras. Good times.

Wonder if they've ported some of those SSI games? I'll have to check. I know Wizardry 6-8 got a port.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 19, 2022, 01:01:39 PM

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Comics, the DC comics ran a good ways. The D&D one went like 30 odd issues. Think FR did as well. Not sure how far Dragonlance and Spelljammer got. Pretty sure Dragonlance got into the 30s. Thats better than alot of DC's sideline comics ever got. So false there.

I can go into a comic shop and find no new issues of any of that stuff. Clearly a bust.

No, but you can go into a comic shop and get Vox Machina comics by Dark Horse.  That's Critical Roll which is basically the D&D brand.

There was a 4 issue Ravenloft miniseries released by IDW between July and October this year.  They also released a 4 issue Icewind Dale story back in late 2020/early 2021 and a Baldur's Gate 5 issue series in late 2021.

There were also Rick and Morty/D&D and Stranger Things/D&D crossover series recently.

So, while not a continuous ongoing series (which isn't really how the industry rolls these days anyway), the past couple years hasn't been exactly lacking in D&D comics.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 21, 2022, 08:14:40 AM
Wonder if they've ported some of those SSI games? I'll have to check. I know Wizardry 6-8 got a port.

  I think you can find all the SSI games at gog.com.

This is such a fascinating thing.

I'm no prognosticator but here's what I think might happen.

Lets assume that the micro transaction thing on DnD Beyond is where WotC is going. They're hoping to either A) create the type of "player" that will spend money on the little things or B) they are assuming that type of player already exists and is willing to spend the money.

We know the recession is here. Inflation has made groceries and rent and utilities a priority. We're not in the pandemic/lockdown. I don't think the typical 'player' is going to spend the money. Oh, sure you'll have the diehards that will. There's just so many variables, like people with disposable income, like me who have left WotC for good.....I ain't doing it. I'm not blind enough to believe that only people my age have disposable income but players have forever been known to leech of their DM's.....it won't change.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

What IS going to happen is WotC's OneD&D is going to be a fundamentally different experience than what *we* traditionally think of as TTRPG's and how we engage in them.

They're banking on younger folks who are *already* conditioned to engage with gaming on this surface-level where the games are designed to be grazed upon and monetized to be consumed endlessly. There are already games out there that do this - Gloomhaven comes to mind. WotC's new leadership is counting on Brand Loyalty(tm) to pull those that already play videogames but don't play D&D necessarily, as well as Brand Loyalists into Mobile-gaming hybrid play (if they're not already in that group) and ply them with the latest and greatest psyops to become better consumers of the brand.

And they're going to do this with the minimal investment in making the game fun at the maximal point of design investment. Wherever that Lawn Dart of Hope lands, that's where they will live or die.

And for those of us that want the TTRPG experience? Well the good news is: WE'RE ALREADY HERE. The Bad News is - we likely won't be playing OneD&D. The Better News is: That's okay because most of us have already stopped playing 5e. The UGLY News is - it's on us to capture those that will seek TTRPG's as a distinct experience from OneD&D. D&D will, hopefully, become disassociated from being *the RPG* that everyone thinks of when people talk about TTRPG's in general. It'll take a long time, but this is a good step in that direction.

But to me - that's all good news. Have you Heard The Good News(tm)? Happy Solstice!

Quote from: tenbones on December 21, 2022, 11:02:26 AM
What IS going to happen is WotC's OneD&D is going to be a fundamentally different experience than what *we* traditionally think of as TTRPG's and how we engage in them.

They're banking on younger folks who are *already* conditioned to engage with gaming on this surface-level where the games are designed to be grazed upon and monetized to be consumed endlessly. There are already games out there that do this - Gloomhaven comes to mind. WotC's new leadership is counting on Brand Loyalty(tm) to pull those that already play videogames but don't play D&D necessarily, as well as Brand Loyalists into Mobile-gaming hybrid play (if they're not already in that group) and ply them with the latest and greatest psyops to become better consumers of the brand.

And they're going to do this with the minimal investment in making the game fun at the maximal point of design investment. Wherever that Lawn Dart of Hope lands, that's where they will live or die.

And for those of us that want the TTRPG experience? Well the good news is: WE'RE ALREADY HERE. The Bad News is - we likely won't be playing OneD&D. The Better News is: That's okay because most of us have already stopped playing 5e. The UGLY News is - it's on us to capture those that will seek TTRPG's as a distinct experience from OneD&D. D&D will, hopefully, become disassociated from being *the RPG* that everyone thinks of when people talk about TTRPG's in general. It'll take a long time, but this is a good step in that direction.

But to me - that's all good news. Have you Heard The Good News(tm)? Happy Solstice!

Well said, tenbones. I wasn't sure how to put that down and you definitely did succinctly.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on December 21, 2022, 11:49:58 AM

Quote from: tenbones on December 21, 2022, 11:02:26 AM
What IS going to happen is WotC's OneD&D is going to be a fundamentally different experience than what *we* traditionally think of as TTRPG's and how we engage in them.

They're banking on younger folks who are *already* conditioned to engage with gaming on this surface-level where the games are designed to be grazed upon and monetized to be consumed endlessly. There are already games out there that do this - Gloomhaven comes to mind. WotC's new leadership is counting on Brand Loyalty(tm) to pull those that already play videogames but don't play D&D necessarily, as well as Brand Loyalists into Mobile-gaming hybrid play (if they're not already in that group) and ply them with the latest and greatest psyops to become better consumers of the brand.

And they're going to do this with the minimal investment in making the game fun at the maximal point of design investment. Wherever that Lawn Dart of Hope lands, that's where they will live or die.

And for those of us that want the TTRPG experience? Well the good news is: WE'RE ALREADY HERE. The Bad News is - we likely won't be playing OneD&D. The Better News is: That's okay because most of us have already stopped playing 5e. The UGLY News is - it's on us to capture those that will seek TTRPG's as a distinct experience from OneD&D. D&D will, hopefully, become disassociated from being *the RPG* that everyone thinks of when people talk about TTRPG's in general. It'll take a long time, but this is a good step in that direction.

But to me - that's all good news. Have you Heard The Good News(tm)? Happy Solstice!

Well said, tenbones. I wasn't sure how to put that down and you definitely did succinctly.

Agreed.  I think there was is one more step in that sequence, admittedly speculative. My experience is that mind-numbing activities go one of two ways depending on the individual and the specific activity:  They either turn it into a habit, and eventually have no real stake in it other than the habit, or they get tired of it and stop. 

If so, then what we get out of this whole process is a lot of drones and a fair number of people who gradually, eventually rebel against the shallowness.  To the extent that there is real RPGs happening elsewhere, outside the D&D umbrella, some of those latter people will be interested.  Note, in some cases, it will take a decade or more for it to play out.

Happily, for us, the answer is the same whether I'm correct in that speculation or not.  Keep running real tabletop RPGs, let the chips fall where they may.  Just be open to younger individuals as individuals, joining in, because some of them will be receptive.

Quote from: Omega on December 21, 2022, 07:22:08 AM
...That's real brilliant.

Modesty compels me to say that you don't have to tell me how brilliant I am.

From now on we can just assume it.

Quote from: Omega on December 21, 2022, 07:22:08 AM
...
Cartoons rarely last a year, few last 5, and hardly any last past that.
D&D has had PC and console games coming out about every other year. AOL Neverwinter was the first graphical MMO out there and would likely still be kicking if AOL had not folded their MMO department. D&D has had probably the most ports of any venue out there aside from maybe some sports games.
Toys. WOTC has for whatever reason hardly ever produced actual toys. Theres been a rare few figures I think. But they seem to mostly just market someone elses toys. Duelmasters? Thats the only one I ever saw.
Wotc till recently, and possible still cant, has been stonewalled by Solomon and could not produce any D&D movies or cartoons. They tried an end-run with Dragonlance and that was sub par. The only cartoon they have ever produced far as I know is for a Duelmaster reboot.
....

I can't fault TSR and WotC for trying.

But if they were successful as they wanted; WotC wouldn't still be trying to get all the tv, film ,movies, toys, etc,... off the ground, again.

If they were; the cartoon would be on its umpteenth reboot, selling "classic" edition toys, and having fans whine about the quality of the prequel films etc,...

Quote from: Omega on December 21, 2022, 07:22:08 AM
Name an entertainment field thats still running from its inception even 20 years later other than MTG. ...

Irrelevant.

I am judging these efforts solely based on what TSR/WotC's goal has always been for the brand:

TSR and now WotC's goal has always been an attempt to put D&D over as an evergreen IP for normies;Like Transformers, or GI Joe, Ninja turtles, etc,...[/i]

That is the lens I am exclusively evaluating all this through.

Quote from: rgalex on December 21, 2022, 10:21:00 AM
No, but you can go into a comic shop and get Vox Machina comics by Dark Horse.  That's Critical Roll which is basically the D&D brand.

Another case for the D&D knock-off going farther than the official product.

If WotC was smart they would have let them use the D&D branding. But no.

Quote from: rgalex on December 21, 2022, 10:21:00 AM
There was a 4 issue Ravenloft miniseries released by IDW between July and October this year.  They also released a 4 issue Icewind Dale story back in late 2020/early 2021 and a Baldur's Gate 5 issue series in late 2021.

There were also Rick and Morty/D&D and Stranger Things/D&D crossover series recently.

So, while not a continuous ongoing series (which isn't really how the industry rolls these days anyway), the past couple years hasn't been exactly lacking in D&D comics.

Limited runs are still not the evergreen IP that they have bee trying to put over on the normies since the early 80's.

13 comics over the past three years is not a success story by that metric.

And that is the only metric I am measuring all this against.

Quote from: tenbones on December 21, 2022, 11:02:26 AM
What IS going to happen is WotC's OneD&D is going to be a fundamentally different experience than what *we* traditionally think of as TTRPG's and how we engage in them.
...
WotC's new leadership is counting on Brand Loyalty(tm) to pull those that already play videogames but don't play D&D necessarily, as well as Brand Loyalists into Mobile-gaming hybrid play (if they're not already in that group) and ply them with the latest and greatest psyops to become better consumers of the brand.

The WotC suit holy grail.

The problem that they have always have is that D&D the RPG has a different play dynamic from other media like Video games, MtG, and the crossover is never what they hope it will be.

But that little detail doesn't seem to keep them from trying...

Quote from: tenbones on December 21, 2022, 11:02:26 AM
...
And for those of us that want the TTRPG experience? Well the good news is: WE'RE ALREADY HERE. The Bad News is - we likely won't be playing OneD&D. The Better News is: That's okay because most of us have already stopped playing 5e. The UGLY News is - it's on us to capture those that will seek TTRPG's as a distinct experience from OneD&D. D&D will, hopefully, become disassociated from being *the RPG* that everyone thinks of when people talk about TTRPG's in general. It'll take a long time, but this is a good step in that direction.
...

Our holy grail.

To paraphrase from that seminal Christmas film, Die Hard:

"You asked for a miracle?"

"I give you the WotC OneVTT..."

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 21, 2022, 10:22:19 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 21, 2022, 08:14:40 AM
Wonder if they've ported some of those SSI games? I'll have to check. I know Wizardry 6-8 got a port.

I think you can find all the SSI games at gog.com.

Confirmed - Forgotten Realms Collection volume 2, specifically. Eye of the Beholder is volume 1, and Dungeon Hack is in volume 3. I didn't look for the silver box Dragonlance games.

Quote from: tenbones on December 21, 2022, 11:02:26 AM
...D&D will, hopefully, become disassociated from being *the RPG* that everyone thinks of when people talk about TTRPG's in general. It'll take a long time, but this is a good step in that direction.

I wouldn't get my hopes up. If it hasn't happened after fifty years, it's probably not going to. At this point, D&D is so heavily entrenched in the public conscience because the people who are running things grew up with it.

While others are debating whether or not D&D-related media from the 80s and 90s was successful, how many people do you think watched that cartoon, read those comics and novels, played those video games, or watched those movies? Those people would be in their 30s and 40s today.