Quote from: Serious PaulAnd the end result?

The player in question has realized that this is way too much trouble, both for him and me, and has settled on a new-to be revealed-concept!

I thank you all for your valuable input, and for helping keep my game from being a bit more absurd!(A little absurd is good. A lot, not so much.)

Damn.  Too late to help, but I would have let him change into a bear, but when he does change he effectively _becomes_ a bear (under the GM's control) until the character is ready to change back.  This should have satisfied him if he really wasn't looking for a combat edge and his character just liked being a bear at times.  You could even design it so that he gained more and more control as he rose in levels until perhaps 6th level when he could change into a bear and retain full awareness and control of his actions.  

Pete

That sir is a very cool idea, and one I'm going to borrow. Should this road ever be looked at again, I'll know where I want to take my first steps!

It's a cool idea, but I'd be wary. Even if he'd agree to that, once in play, he might be irritated to find that control is being yanked from him at crucial junctures, combat or otherwise. Another issue is that even if he's being controlled by the DM, he's still a bear.

If that's the route you might go, though, consider having him make a Will Save in order to do what he wants, otherwise the primal nature of the bear takes over and, I dunno, maybe you roll on a random table to decide what happens (as in the spell Confusion) or perhaps he just continues doing whatever his last order was until he can issue orders again.

The Will Save as one of the weak checks on a Barbarian might act, in itself, as the whole control device. Set it at 15 unless stressed (for example, if he's taken damage) or make Concentration a class skill and have him roll against DC 20 (higher or lower DCs for more complex mental tasks or easier ones). In each case, it creates its own check against the character (perhaps allowing you to make an even switch from Rage to Bear) because with the Will save, he'll want to prioritize Wisdom more, and maybe invest in Iron Will in order to get better control, and in the latter, he may want to invest in Intelligence more in order to make up for losing skill points to having to feed to Concentration. (After all, it's a Con skill, and a barbarian ought to have a good Con anyhow. Concentration will be more successful on the average then Will Saves because it's 3+level+Con. Bonus on a First level Barbarian, it'd be as high as +11 (4 points at level 1, 4 con. bonus, 3 Skill focus) allowing him to hit 21 more then half the time.

Did that suggestion help?

Quote from: Thanatos02Another issue is that even if he's being controlled by the DM, he's still a bear.

Yeah, but in my mind, that means if he transforms in the middle of a battle he's as likely to attack the other PCs as he is the enemy.  Or run away.  Wild animals don't like being near humans.  

Pete

plus i wouldn't make concentration a class skill.  make it cost extra to retain control.  otherwise, great idea!

Making him likely to attack friends or run away makes it a completely useless ability. as such it would almost certainly never be used unless he was in a mood to tempt the fates (or had just dropped SP a nice bribe).

Making it so he's unlikely to attack friends or enemies still leaves you with the problem that you've got a bear in a low-level party. At first it will be too powerful, then too weak. Then he'll hit a level where his bear type jumps up to a larger size and it'll be too powerful again, then too weak. Until eventually you're inventing new bear types or he has a completely useless ability.

Either way you're taking a combat oriented ability and making sure that the player never gets to use it, only the GM. Whether it's beoken in one direction or the other won't really matter, because as soon as he activates the power he stops being his own character. Unless he's the type that gets off on describing cool bear transformation scenes then watching while everyone else plays, it probably won't work out.

Or, to put it in short terms: whatever you do, make it balanced instead of forcing NPC status on him.

Quote from: James McMurrayMaking him likely to attack friends or run away makes it a completely useless ability. as such it would almost certainly never be used unless he was in a mood to tempt the fates (or had just dropped SP a nice bribe).

Well, from the player's rationalization, he didn't want the ability for combat purposes, he wanted it for flavor.  Serious Paul and others weren't sure he was being honest about that (not wanting to be a combat powerhouse), so this would ensure he _couldn't_ be.  He can change back to human at will, so it's not an issue of GM control.  It just means that at first level he wouldn;t be able to change into a bear and mow through a dungeon full of orcs (or whatever).  If he didn't like this option, I would have to agree that he just wanted a bear form to gain a combat edge.  

Serious Paul, if you're correct about his motives, I think you'll find his next character idea to be just as twinky.  Be sure to post it here!

Pete

Yeah I'll keep you guys updated!

Quote from: pspahnWell, from the player's rationalization, he didn't want the ability for combat purposes, he wanted it for flavor.  Serious Paul and others weren't sure he was being honest about that (not wanting to be a combat powerhouse), so this would ensure he _couldn't_ be.  He can change back to human at will, so it's not an issue of GM control.  It just means that at first level he wouldn;t be able to change into a bear and mow through a dungeon full of orcs (or whatever).  If he didn't like this option, I would have to agree that he just wanted a bear form to gain a combat edge.

Whether he wants to be combat oriented or not doesn't really matter with this option. It's quite possible to not want to be forced into NPC status every time you try to contribute meaningfully to combat without wanting to be a combat focused character. I've played some non combat oriented characters with themes myself, and I'd laugh in a GM's face (or at least politely decline) any option that took away my player control every time I got into combat and wanted to contribute.

The idea also neuters the transformation outside of combat. It basically becomes "any time you use your biggest class ability, leave the table." Why would anyone, combat-oriented or not, want that?

I'm generally of the policy of letting PCs do just about anything they please. If I don't like it, I'll kill their characters by exploiting their weaknesses. King Bear here would be useless at ranged combat, for example. Have some dudes stand on a wall or the roof of a building and shoot him with arrows until he's dead. Then you've let him create his character as he pleases, but you haven't had to put up with it for more than a session or two either.

Transforming into a DM-controlled bear is even worse than the "can't quite, will attack friends" rage/berserking variants... Such things shouldn't be in the rules. If the player wants to role-play the animalistic nature, he's free to go. Don't do it on the mechanics-level.
Then again, I could be wrong.

I look forward to hearing the next idea.
...Bearshape at first level isn't more powerful than Rage...:hehe:

Quote from: James McMurrayWhether he wants to be combat oriented or not doesn't really matter with this option. It's quite possible to not want to be forced into NPC status every time you try to contribute meaningfully to combat without wanting to be a combat focused character.

But the player's rationale was that he _didn't_ want the bear shape for combat.  This is what the player said:

"Additionally, this isn't something I'm doing for combat [since I'll be less combat-effective as a bear, which is what I'll almost always turn into], but rather because my character likes to be a bear sometimes."

The GM seems to be concerned that despite what the player says, he _would_ be using it for combat which would unbalance a 1st level game (at least during a melee/grapple situation--and I agree).  Therefore, if the player knows ahead of time that he becomes an NPC bear once he changes (until he reaches a certain level), there's a built-in reason for him not to change into a bear during combat.  Otherwise, there's no reason why he shouldn't become a bear and plow through trouble.  Which would irk me as a GM (after he said what he did).  

I'm not a fan of taking away player control, but I don't feel that characters should receive potentially unbalancing abilities without there being some drawbacks. What if he wanted a +5 sword at first level?  Would he just get one?  That doesn't seem fair to me--unless the whole party receives some sort of item or ability as equally powerful, but by the tone, I'm guessing the GM is not running a high-powered 1st level campaign.  Including a drawback (like becoming an NPC) levels everything out again. And if the player truly just "likes to be a bear sometimes" he shouldn't have a problem with this.  

He could still contribute to the combat normally in human form (I'm assuming he has a class with all normal abilities, etc., just like everyone else).  

And yes, the GM can work around this by changing tactics, etc., but that's the GM's choice to make.  If he's uncomfortable with what he feels is someone trying to be shady with the rules, he should be able to decide what is and what isn't allowed in his game.  If you don;t agree with his decision, that's up to you, but there's nothing stopping from making another character.  

Just to be clear, we do all agree that the GM has the final say when it comes to what is allowed in his campaign, right?

Pete

Quote from: Cerulean LionI look forward to hearing the next idea.
...Bearshape at first level isn't more powerful than Rage...:hehe:

I don;t know Rage (I play d20 Modern but not D&D anymore), but is it really equal to the +16 Grappling bonus and +11 melee/claw bonus along with the Improved Grab ability that a bear gets?  This seems way overpowered for 1st level.  

Pete

Quote from: pspahnI don;t know Rage (I play d20 Modern but not D&D anymore), but is it really equal to the +16 Grappling bonus and +11 melee/claw bonus along with the Improved Grab ability that a bear gets?  This seems way overpowered for 1st level.  

Pete

Heh.
I was mocking the idea that Rage was equal to Bearshape. Of course Bearshape is much more powerful, especially if gained at first level.
I guess I chose the wrong emoticon, since my meaning wasn't clear.  Sorry.