Dungeons & Deceptions: The First D&D Players Push Back On The Legend Of Gary Gygax

The old "Come Back" Inn, now thats Old School.

I hope Rob Kuntz gets his 30 pieces of silver

But it's funny, the article actually debunks itself

QuoteArneson didn't have a concrete ruleset; he was making things up as he went along. But, Kuntz said, he did manage to cobble
together 18 pages of handwritten notes, a lot of which were simply stats for Chainmail monsters.

So EGG turned 18 pages of notes, mostly Chainmail monster stats, into the 3 books of OD&D.

To be sure, there would be no Dungeons & Dragons without Gary Gygax...
...But what gets lost is that neither would there be D&D without Dave Arneson.

Seems reasonable - this is how things tend to work in IRL. Personally I've been in the Arneson role of having the ideas and using them in my home game, and seeing a friend do the Gygax thing - take my ideas and turn them into published work (published by Mongoose). Both the originator & the developer are necessary to get stuff that actually reaches the public in usable form. Likewise in academia I've been in the developer role, turning what was initially mostly a collaborator's work into something publishable, and getting it published - I put myself as secondary author (a lot of senior academics do this and think they should be listed as first author) but it was definitely a joint effort needing both of us.

Tim Kask made it clear in several interviews that the problem was Arneson didn't want to be bothered to write anything up. He dumped his notes on Gygax's desk and left Gygax to write it all up into anything resembling a coherent game.

[video=youtube_share;RwKztsXquoM]https://youtu.be/RwKztsXquoM?t=3296[/youtube]

Quote from: S'mon;1101018To be sure, there would be no Dungeons & Dragons without Gary Gygax...
...But what gets lost is that neither would there be D&D without Dave Arneson.

Seems reasonable - this is how things tend to work in IRL. Personally I've been in the Arneson role of having the ideas and using them in my home game, and seeing a friend do the Gygax thing - take my ideas and turn them into published work (published by Mongoose). Both the originator & the developer are necessary to get stuff that actually reaches the public in usable form. Likewise in academia I've been in the developer role, turning what was initially mostly a collaborator's work into something publishable, and getting it published - I put myself as secondary author (a lot of senior academics do this and think they should be listed as first author) but it was definitely a joint effort needing both of us.

Couldn't agree more, particularly regarding the role of the developer. A good idea has some value, of course, but solid implementation is way more valuable - and requires significantly more work.

Old bitter men fighting over credit (not) given to men who died 10+ years ago. No money, no actual fame just much much drama.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1101020A good idea has some value, of course, but solid implementation is way more valuable - and requires significantly more work.

Yeah, I think the problem is that some people assign all value to the "creative spark" of the originator, and some people assign all value to the "labour skill & effort" of the developer. I teach Copyright, and Civil-law systems like France tend to put more value on the Arnesonian 'genius', while Anglo-American tend to favour the Gygaxian 'labour/skill/effort' that actually makes the product. At any rate I don't think either should be discounted.

After reading the various books, anecdotes, the few pieces of primary documentation I was able to see, my conclusion is that Dave Arneson invented tabletop roleplaying, Gary Gygax invented Dungeons & Dragon with input from Dave. Without the effort of the two, along the sequence of the events, we would not have the hobby we now enjoy.

Quote from: S'mon;1101023At any rate I don't think either should be discounted.

Once more, agreement from me. A great idea can make the difference between run-of-the-mill and bestseller, while solid development makes the difference between hobbyist and professional product. To make that bestseller, you better have both.

You guys should see the thread over on the OSR subreddit, it's like many of them were waiting for an excuse to drag out the pitchforks and torches regarding Gary Gygax.

Quote from: JeremyR;1101012So EGG turned 18 pages of notes, mostly Chainmail monster stats, into the 3 books of OD&D.

I talked to Jim Ward about this at a convention once...he said the Arneson notes were mostly illegible drivel. I don't care how creative you are, if you cannot communicate your ideas to anyone else, it's irrelevant what you're doing. To discount Gygax because he didn't actually come up with the initial idea is dumb.

So, this is just old news...Arneson came up with a cool new idea, Gygax put it into a presentable form. I mean, they're both listed as co-creators of D&D, so who the fuck cares? Kuntz is just old and probably has a bone to pick with Gygax's widow who is the one tarnishing his legacy.

Quote from: S'mon;1101023Yeah, I think the problem is that some people assign all value to the "creative spark" of the originator, and some people assign all value to the "labour skill & effort" of the developer. I teach Copyright, and Civil-law systems like France tend to put more value on the Arnesonian 'genius', while Anglo-American tend to favour the Gygaxian 'labour/skill/effort' that actually makes the product. At any rate I don't think either should be discounted.

I'm fine thinking that everybody back then had a hand in shaping what we know as D&D, and I'll let those old farts slap-fight each other over the details.

Quote from: Brad;1101045I talked to Jim Ward about this at a convention once...he said the Arneson notes were mostly illegible drivel. I don't care how creative you are, if you cannot communicate your ideas to anyone else, it's irrelevant what you're doing. To discount Gygax because he didn't actually come up with the initial idea is dumb.

So, this is just old news...Arneson came up with a cool new idea, Gygax put it into a presentable form. I mean, they're both listed as co-creators of D&D, so who the fuck cares? Kuntz is just old and probably has a bone to pick with Gygax's widow who is the one tarnishing his legacy.

I agree. Ideas are cheap. Meaningful to those smart enough to execute - but cheap.

The execution part is where the magic happens.

Quote from: Brad;1101045I talked to Jim Ward about this at a convention once...he said the Arneson notes were mostly illegible drivel. I don't care how creative you are, if you cannot communicate your ideas to anyone else, it's irrelevant what you're doing. To discount Gygax because he didn't actually come up with the initial idea is dumb.

So, this is just old news...Arneson came up with a cool new idea, Gygax put it into a presentable form. I mean, they're both listed as co-creators of D&D, so who the fuck cares? Kuntz is just old and probably has a bone to pick with Gygax's widow who is the one tarnishing his legacy.

I don't think Kuntz has any real bones to pick with Gail--why would he trash Gary himself it that was the case?  He did have a falling out with Gary in the last stages of the latter's life.  I do sense some bitterness in Kuntz since he implies he's not interviewed much, and he's also apparently planning to write a tell-all book called Lake Geneva Days, etc.

The other thing odd was Kuntz stating the myth of Gary...but there's been a ton of coverage of the others involved with the creation.  It's not the 1980s anymore, most people know it, both creators get credits in the OGL and in the books, even if it's small.

The thing people need to remember is this--Gary will always be better known.  He didn't just co-create D&D, he developed all sorts of things.  The Advanced ruleset.  Tomb of Horrors, GDQ series, the World of Greyhawk, Homlett.  Dozens of columns in Dragon magazine.  He organized GenCon.  He built a company, and he sacrificed his day job to do it.  He was also naturally charismatic with people and spent a lot of his later years just chatting with folks online and answering their questions.

People know Gary better because he did more to influence the game in its early days and there are enough people who were inspired by all of that.

Quote from: JRT;1101053The thing people need to remember is this--Gary will always be better known.  He didn't just co-create D&D, he developed all sorts of things.  The Advanced ruleset.  Tomb of Horrors, GDQ series, the World of Greyhawk, Homlett.  Dozens of columns in Dragon magazine.  He organized GenCon.  He built a company, and he sacrificed his day job to do it.  He was also naturally charismatic with people and spent a lot of his later years just chatting with folks online and answering their questions.

People know Gary better because he did more to influence the game in its early days and there are enough people who were inspired by all of that.

   And the flip side is that that level of exposure and activities, combined with being a man of vocal opinions, can make you a lot of enemies, which may account for some of the reaction against him.