Quote from: Arkansan;1101032You guys should see the thread over on the OSR subreddit, it's like many of them were waiting for an excuse to drag out the pitchforks and torches regarding Gary Gygax.

Is anyone surprised that a bunch of guys who A) feel old and neglected, and B) have likely never demonstrated the discipline and toil necessary to turn ideas into commercial success, should identify with Arneson over Gygax? Arneson was the ur-grognard.

Quote from: Manic Modron;1101109Can't check it out at work.

This is like Stan Lee/Jack Kirby, isn't it .

Not really. Jack Kirby worked his ass off 10+ hours a day for decades delivering commercial-quality content.

Quote from: Brad;1101045So, this is just old news...Arneson came up with a cool new idea, Gygax put it into a presentable form.

Arneson had been running his Blackmoor campaign weekly for three years before Gary even heard of what he was doing. That's a bit more than just a "cool new idea". If you look at the Dungeon! boardgame, you can see the state that Blackmoor was in in 1972 as that boardgame was created before Gary was involved. All of the things we associate with D&D: hit points, levels, classes, armor class, and dungeons come from Dave's game.

Also, other people who had played with Dave were in the process of creating their own versions of Dungeons and Dragons which is why OD&D was so rushed. One of these even got published just months after D&D did. Sure, those rules would not have ended up exactly like D&D, but the fact remains that sooner or later, RPGs would have become a thing.

Arneson was the true father of roleplaying games. Gygax was an opportunist.

Quote from: Itachi;1101262Arneson was the true father of roleplaying games. Gygax was an opportunist.

But Arneson took some amount of influence from Chainmail, which was written by Gary.  I feel sorry for Dave, but Gary was also pushing gaming toward what it became next.  Without Chainmail, would Dave have ended up with the same Blackmoor?

Quote from: Razor 007;1101265Without Chainmail, would Dave have ended up with the same Blackmoor?

Probably. Chainmail was just a convenient set of rules to play medieval fantasy battles with. At the time Dave was very familiar with miniatures wargames and had already written (with his friends) his own miniatures rules for his Napoleonic campaign. Converting his Strategos-N rules to Strategos-F wouldn't have been that difficult.

There was also a strong skirmish wargaming scene in the UK that had, four years prior to D&D, started publishing skirmish wargames featuring many element that would later show up in RPGs such as individual characters, character advancement, and narrative story campaigns. Despite their early start, these were just getting going when D&D came out and cut them off at the pass, so to speak. These types of games would easily have provided the man-to-man rules from which to base an RPG on.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1101260Arneson had been running his Blackmoor campaign weekly for three years before Gary even heard of what he was doing. That's a bit more than just a "cool new idea". If you look at the Dungeon! boardgame, you can see the state that Blackmoor was in in 1972 as that boardgame was created before Gary was involved. All of the things we associate with D&D: hit points, levels, classes, armor class, and dungeons come from Dave's game.

Also, other people who had played with Dave were in the process of creating their own versions of Dungeons and Dragons which is why OD&D was so rushed. One of these even got published just months after D&D did. Sure, those rules would not have ended up exactly like D&D, but the fact remains that sooner or later, RPGs would have become a thing.

It's not anything other than a "cool new idea" if you can't tell anyone else how to play it unless they're physically in the same room as you and you teach them the rules that really don't even exist. Also, did Arneson make Dungeon! or was that someone else? From everything I've read, he only published stuff after D&D was a thing, so you can't fault people assuming Gygax had more to do with that than he did if his company was the one publishing stuff.

What version of D&D was published months after..? I am not aware of such a game.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1101260Arneson had been running his Blackmoor campaign weekly for three years before Gary even heard of what he was doing. That's a bit more than just a "cool new idea". If you look at the Dungeon! boardgame, you can see the state that Blackmoor was in in 1972 as that boardgame was created before Gary was involved. All of the things we associate with D&D: hit points, levels, classes, armor class, and dungeons come from Dave's game.

Gygax took what he experienced from Dave's session and wrote his own take on it. Then proceeded to playtest it for a good while. As much of a genius Dave was writing rulesbooks was not a strong point. And Gygax was no slouch in wargame design department either.

It not accurate to say that the first D&D manuscript was a copy of the rules Dave was using. As there was no "copy" to copy from. Dave's notebook was bunch of mnemonics and aides to help him to remain consistent.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1101260Also, other people who had played with Dave were in the process of creating their own versions of Dungeons and Dragons which is why OD&D was so rushed. One of these even got published just months after D&D did. Sure, those rules would not have ended up exactly like D&D, but the fact remains that sooner or later, RPGs would have become a thing.

I have not read any alternative effort that would matched the scale of the original D&D release. Or read about anybody who was as dedicated to ensuring a tabletop roleplaying would be a commercial success as Gygax was. A 1,000 copies consisting of three booklets, some pages of chart and a box wasn't on anybody radar at the time.

There is no plausible path to the hobby and industry we have today except the one that runs through Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax. Gygax was every bit as vital to the process as Dave Arneson.

I am a fan of alternate history and even tried my hand at a few stories.

The plausible Point of Departures I see being

• Dave Arneson never travels to Lake Geneva to run the Blackmoor Dungeons for Gygax and friends.
• Brian Blume doesn't invest $2,000 into TSR
• Don Kaye doesn't die an early death

If Gygax wasn't involved my opinion that what we would have seen is a bunch of wargames focused on players playing individual characters in specific scenarios. Like some of what came out for Dragonquest, and The Fantasy Trip. Campaign play would be been relegated to articles and word of mouth and have a reputation as a time consuming effort done by people are really into the hobby. Certainly the dungeon adventure would not have the icon status that it enjoys today.

I realize my criticism is forceful but one has to keep in mind that the two men had different strengths and skills. Both were vital to making tabletop roleplaying into what it is today. Both had their skills to a degree that wasn't common. That outside of these skills they were just like any other hobbyist then and now. So were prone to the failings and strengths all people have.

Quote from: Brad;1101281It's not anything other than a "cool new idea" if you can't tell anyone else how to play it unless they're physically in the same room as you and you teach them the rules that really don't even exist.

Tabletop roleplaying is not a game, it is process. A process of running a campaign where players play individual characters, tell the referee what they are doing as their characters, and the referee describes what happens. While I was able to explain this tersely, it is the simplistic things that are the hardest to come up with. Behind my statement are the years Dave Arneson spent tinkering with this and that, and acquiring the experience to figure out how to make this fun in the time people have for a hobby.

It also a process that works best by actually teaching by example. A characteristics of tabletop roleplaying that persist to the present. In hindsight it is a process that is simply stated but it also didn't exist until Dave figured out how to make it work. Work in a way that was fun and doable in the time one has for a hobby.

Gygax main creative contribution is the focus on the dungeon as the primary locale for adventuring. As imperfectly roleplaying was explained in the three OD&D booklet, the dungeon was a near perfect venue for helping people grasp the idea. While Dave ran the first dungeon, Gygax had his primary focus on the Greyhawk Dungeon. Thus OD&D was largely about how to run that type of adventure and some of the tool and aide he used to make those type of adventures.

It would be awesome, if kids of both co-creators would do a public event and bury the hatchet.

I'm sure you all knew D&D wasn't the only RPG where Arneson played a role (pun intended). His brainchild was called Adventures in Fantasy.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1101260Also, other people who had played with Dave were in the process of creating their own versions of Dungeons and Dragons which is why OD&D was so rushed. One of these even got published just months after D&D did.

What game was this?

Do you mean Tekumel?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101360I'm sure you all knew D&D wasn't the only RPG where Arneson played a role (pun intended). His brainchild was called Adventures in Fantasy.

And if you've read it, you'll see that it dispels any myth that Arneson was a "rules light" guy.  Probably the first and only RPG that has a separate to hit for when your character fights a lion. And figuring out experience for defeated opponents requires multiplying three fractions together.

Quote from: estar;1101328Tabletop roleplaying is not a game, it is process. A process of running a campaign where players play individual characters, tell the referee what they are doing as their characters, and the referee describes what happens. While I was able to explain this tersely, it is the simplistic things that are the hardest to come up with. Behind my statement are the years Dave Arneson spent tinkering with this and that, and acquiring the experience to figure out how to make this fun in the time people have for a hobby.

It also a process that works best by actually teaching by example. A characteristics of tabletop roleplaying that persist to the present. In hindsight it is a process that is simply stated but it also didn't exist until Dave figured out how to make it work. Work in a way that was fun and doable in the time one has for a hobby.

Gygax main creative contribution is the focus on the dungeon as the primary locale for adventuring. As imperfectly roleplaying was explained in the three OD&D booklet, the dungeon was a near perfect venue for helping people grasp the idea. While Dave ran the first dungeon, Gygax had his primary focus on the Greyhawk Dungeon. Thus OD&D was largely about how to run that type of adventure and some of the tool and aide he used to make those type of adventures.

By your definition, poker is a "process" as well. I honestly don't understand what you're even talking about; you make it sound like other sorts of games didn't have a similar design history.

I'm gonna go full tin-foil hat for a moment.  I acknowledge this.  But it seems there might be some threads and patterns at play here.  I'm just tying together pieces of info left around the internet and could be completely wrong.  But there's a whole lot of weird going on with this article and this timing from multiple sides.

To me this seems driven mainly by Rob Kuntz.  He has some bile, whether created before Gary's death or after, and now he's going to do as much damage as possible.  There's no fact checking in that article; for a filmmaker who continues to present himself as a simple unbiased historian who's definitely not doing a combined operation in conjunction with this kotoku author, it seems to get brough up wherever the movie is discussed.  And any journalist worth their salt doesn't take one angry guy's word for it unless they really want to.  Let's take a look at what just a few searches brings up on good old Rob's migrating attitudes over the years - something you'd think a journalist would at least mention, if not challenge him on.

Source searches

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=+arneson&author_id=804&start=30  Rob's posts at DF with the keyword: Arneson

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=+beginning&author_id=804&start=30  Rob's posts at DF with the keyword: beginning

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author_id=804  Rob's post's at DF with the keyword: greyhawk

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/piedpiperpublishing/  Rob's pied piper boards

I'm not bothering to tie everything together; I took a free evening to see if this article passes the smell test regarding what it's asserting.  I'd also point out this isn't about whether EGG or DA deserves more credit because that's a stupid argument.  But it does seem to me that there's a media element that wants to marginalize EGG as much as possible now, and for whatever reason Kuntz is more than happy to help them do it.

Arneson

2004-2008 DF

Arneson doesn't seem to be the RPG originator to Kuntz while EGG is alive.  He mentions him twice on DF in five years from 2004-2009, and if you look at the earliest posts in the Arneson keyword thread, two of those are to claim his own equal stature to those two in D&D history over everyone else and nothing more.  The third is to make sure everyone knows that Arneson DM'd him and EGG through one of Dave's modules: City of the Gods.  That's it.  Nothing about all this angst he's bringing out in the article.

Around the same time Rob is putting himself up with those two, he does start a sub-forum for DA's work on his own forums.  It's little trafficked by him, although somewhat trafficked.  it gives a place for Blackmoor fans to come and hang out at his boards.  The difference in enthusiasm for his posting re: EGG and DA is pretty evident.  EGG has his own sub-forum which he posts at pretty frequently.  Arneson gets reactions such as the following (from the thread opening the board)

Quote from: RJKThis is a new forum dedicated to the long-standing Blackmoor Campaign by Dave Arneson.

Quote from: DeogolfenchanterAny chance of getting Mr. Arneson on board for an adventure module?! That would be pretty neat!

Quote from: RJKHmmm
Hmmmm
Hmmmm

Quote from: GronanRob,
I see Dave a couple of times a year... I can find his contact info if you don't have it.

emphasis supplied

Quote from: RJKOK. Maybe we can discuss that along with the Fiction and Merlynd's??

Email me when you have a chance, Michael.
Now, off to the post office.
R

Quote from: RJKI count myself, along with Gronan, as a fellow Blackmoorian also.
I only adventured twice into his game, but both adventures were hum-dingers!
Now Gronan might have additonal tales to tell...

emphasis supplied

Just a slight difference in adulation between then and now, eh?  Adventured twice, completely downplayed, but he's now the Arensonian expert on all things Arenesonian.  He does welcome Havard posting there with news and updates about what Dave might be doing though since he apparently doesn't know how to contact him himself.

2009

Gary's gone, Dave is still with us.  Now Kuntz starts talking about Arneson in a different tone on DF

Quote from: RJKAnd I even played in Blackmoor twice, DMed by the great Dave Arneson...

emphasis supplied

NOW he's trying to contact him

Quote from: RJKMy stay down there was preempted by personal situations and I have returned to Wisconsin.

I was at GaryCon1 in early March. I tried to reconnect with Dave Arneson while in Florida but no sooner than had I arrived he retired and moved back to Minnesota! WE have since communicated by phone and in email.

I remember when he suddenly jumped down to Florida on what seemed a whim, perhaps this was the reason - moving his attachment to the other guy living who was a co-creator.  Whether coincidentally or not, after finding out Dave was in Minnesota again, so too was Rob no longer in Florida but back in Wisconsin

Word gets out that Dave's health also isn't good.   Rob's reaction?

Quote from: RJKI sincerely hope he gets better and I will drop him a line to that effect.

Just a slightly different tone than when EGG's health was up and down over the years

Quote from: RJKGary sent me an email today stating that he is entering the hospital for an "emergency operation." VERY sad news indeed, and he asked me to say a prayer for him, which I have, and I ask all of you to do the same, please.
For those who have his physical mailing address, do send get- well cards.
He will be offline for a bit, so he said, so let us wish him the best of luck and a speedy & healthy return to life!

QuoteGary's doctors (in an email from him, or maybe it went to everyone he knows, dunno) deigned not to operate and are having hin come back for tests in the future. So, cancel Yellow alert! Welcome back Big EGG!
Rob

The above was 2006

QuoteI have a note before me from Ernie Gygax that Gary's health has turned towards the poor side.
Everyone should wish him well as I do. Hope you recover soon Gary!
Rob

Quote>Dad is contacting us and letting his children know that he is feeling
>>extremely poor of health. Gail is mirroring this message.
>>
>>I hope that they are incorrect but if there is anything you want to do or
>>say to Gary, time may be of the essense. I hope that he rebounds soon and
>>comes back to my weekly Game gatherings.
>>
>>Just a note to my friends and family.
>>
>>Ernie Gygax

You interpert it.
RJK

Quote from: RJKWell, I can say that as well, having dealt with him since I was 12 years of age. He is stubborn. But if he wishes to maintain going forward without undue thought about something that may (or may not) be bothering him now, I can quite understand and appreciate that. While I was suffering through my own recent sicknesses the last thing I wanted was to think about them, or be reminded of them, and I am sure that is true with everyone who faces such challenges.

The above was just before Gary died.

Again, I'm not saying Kuntz was wrong for posting any of the above.  I'm saying it's quite odd that he's changed so drastically.

2010 - 2016

Kuntz doesn't mention Arneson again on DF until 2010.  Then he mentions him 44 times in the next few years, his tenor towards DA always improving, but almost always with Gygax in a respectful primacy until the last years.  One bit that was interesting though as a direct comparison to the article was here:

Quote(Havard) Did you adventure in Blackmoor beyond what can be learned from Robilar's adventure in the City of Gods from OJ#5?

(RJK) Gary, my brother Terry, Ernie Gygax and myself adventured first in Blackmoor (Castle and Outdoor) when Dave Arneson and David Megarry (of DUNGEON board-game fame) came to LG in the Winter of 1972. The reaction to that adventure and the consequent development of the D&D game as re-envisioned by EGG, is described in a lengthy introductory essay written by me for the upcoming release of Castle El Raja Key, with news on that here:https://lordofthegreendragons.blogspot.com/2009/12/castle-el-raja-key-small-partial-of.html

This is interesting because it is another recounting of the same events as in the article, as near as I can tell.  And the blog post he links to describes the phone call, game, etc.  Look at how its different:

Quote"...As I was ostensibly part of the Gygax extended family since 1968, I was at their house and with Gary almost every day.  After the initial Blackmoor adventure events proceeded at a furious pace.  Phone calls to Dave.  Letters exchanged between the two.  During this time EGG noted that he had begun crafting a "dungeon" setting similar to Dave's Blackmoor. About two weeks after this adventure, Gary handed me a slim manuscript which had been mailed to him by David.  I sat down and read for the first time the rules that David had used during it.  They consisted of "16 pages of [typed] notes" (as EGG emphasized while I was perusing them).  He and I both noted that they were based off of EGG's Fantasy Supplement to the rules Chainmail (Gygax & Perren, Guidon Games 1971) but with copious additions of formulas which I faintly (at least then) equated to those from the miniatures game Strategos N (David Wesley, 1967) that I had watched being played at GENCON 2.  Gary informed me that these notes were in need of streamlining and that he would be doing this over the coming weeks as well as continuing to craft a dungeon to play-test the refined rules.

emphasis supplied

Just a touch different, eh? Here both of them are noting that "they were based off...chainmail", with formulas RJK thought cribbed from Strategos N.  

Now compare to the same events in the Kotaku article:

QuoteRegardless, for years after D&D's mainstream explosion into popular culture, Gygax would refer to Blackmoor as Arneson's "amended Chainmail fantasy campaign,"
 or more simply, "a Chainmail game."

"People think that Blackmoor arose from Chainmail, and thus Chainmail gave rise to Dungeons & Dragons.  That is not correct," said Stormberg, the RPG historian.
 While Chainmail, amongst other things, was an influence on Blackmoor, Arneson's game was "entirely new," he said.  It's a game entirely unlike Chainmail.  It's
 like saying a Rodin uses red and a Picasso uses red so they're the same style of painting."

...

"Dave described this fantasy medieval campaign he was running," Stormberg said.
 "To express it to Gary, he expressed it as a variant to Chainmail, when in fact it was a completely new concept in gaming with some elements of Chainmail laid overtop it.
 The underlying concept of a role-playing game is what Dave Arneson created."

...Gary invited Arneson and one member of his gaming crew, David Megarry, who had designed the adventure board game Dungeon, to his Lake Geneva basement to demonstrate Blackmoor.  To get there, they drove through a snowstorm in November of 1972.  Megarry and Arneson arrived to find Mary Jo Gygax clearing away the dinner plates while Gary sat at the typewriter, Kuntz recalled.  Rob Kuntz was there, too, and joined them as the sixth player in Gygax's first game of Blackmoor, alongside his brother Terry, Gary Gygax, his son Ernie, Arneson, and Megarry.

...

Arneson set up his 3-ring binder as a screen between us and him," wrote Kuntz in an unpublished work called A tale of Two Daves, Two Gygax's and Two Kuntz's, which he shared with Kotaku.  "He noted that Dave Megarry, a regular in his game, would be our guide for the adventure.  Megarry did most of the interfacing and explaining what it was we were about to do with imaginary characters.  Arneson noted we could be either heroes or wizards.  Gary chose to be a wizard and the rest of us heroes"

...

As Kuntz tells it, Gygax had taken out some paper and colored pencils.  They sat together at his dining room table.  "I really believe what we experienced the night before can be turned into a game for creating stories," Kuntz recalls Gygax saying.  "Be the adjuticator.  I'll be the player."  Gygax and Kuntz ran through two one-hour sessions of Blackmoor, but as Kuntz recalled it, neither game proceeded to their satisfaction.  Kuntz believes it is because Arneson had been running Blackmoor for months now and had been able to furnish players with an immersive experience from repetition and recollection. Regardless, Kuntz describes himself as the first "dungeon master."  

Kuntz remembers Gygax writing down his own recollections from the Blackmoor game in a frenzy. He remembers when Gygax later asked Arneson to send over his notes for Blackmoor. Arneson didn't have a concrete ruleset; he was making things up as he went along.  But, Kuntz said, he did manage to cobble together some 18 pages of handwritten notes, a lot of which were simply stats for Chainmail monsters.  

Arneson, who referred to himself as a "hunt and peck typist," wasn't much for polished rulesets.  "The game was in Dave's mind, in practice with his home players.  It didn't exist as a full-blown set of rules," said Stormberg.  "It was a eureka moment for Gary."

Gygax read through Arneson's notes.  "Halfway through the reading," Kuntz said, "Gary...nonchalantly said, 'This needs to be rewritten.'  Not one nice thing to say about Dave, the adventure the rules.  This is when it all switches.'

"He was jealous.  Just stone-cold jealous."

I suspect that ending is pure projection.

Doesn't it seem strange that Rob's memory is getting better over the years and the "beginning" is pushed back further also?  Kuntz was, quite frankly, humping Gary's leg up until the moment he passed, and afterwards so long as (IMO) it seemed most commercially favorable to do so.  But now that's all changed, and unless Gary's ghost is visiting Rob like he apparently is Gail, there's nothing reasonable that points to a change.

So here's where I speculate and draw a speculative conclusion that everyone involved is trying to use the gaming community's affection as either leverage for revenge and/or gain.

Rob now decries modules completely.  Says they're very bad for roleplaying and creativity.  But again, this has changed.  He really wanted to sell modules to you not very long ago.  But he's a man whose primary claim to fame is wrapped up under who's legal thumb?  Gary's widow.  There was a thread about Castle Greyhawk a couple of years ago in the general DF forums that he inserted himself into, which was odd as normally he only took Q&A on this own thread.  He wanted everyone to know that CGH could have been published but for Gary and Gail directly.  (Note: I was in this conversation though I was not addressing Kuntz directly, he took issue with my comments encouraging people to make up their own castle GH instead of pining for an official one, in addition to a few other people's posts to that effect).  And ended it with a post stating that CGH belongs to both of them and "Even Gail Gygax knows that"; conceding however that she controlled the situation

These were his last posts on Dragonsfoot.  Randomly inserted into a thread discussing whether CG was ever going to be published, just like dozens of other threads exactly the same before it.

So let's think about everything that's happened this year with Kotaku, Gygax, and Kuntz.  

I don't think it's out of the ballpark to speculate that Kotaku wants to de-emphasize Gary's legacy.  The author of the article has already stated "And yet, perhaps Gygax has enjoyed enough time on D&D's altar of hero worship."  That's one of the reasons that it seemed weird at GaryCon when she wrote the article sympathetic to Gail Gygax but negative about GaryCon itself and also Tenkar.  Remember that?  At the time people shrugged and said "it could have been worse".  

So the 1st article seemed to use a in-fight between the family to throw shade at GaryCon and Tenkar, neither of whom are beloved by certain communities.  

Now another article, coming several months after the 1st, which possibly uses another infight between Kuntz and Gail over IP (speculating that Kuntz's sudden swerve is because he's pissed he can't cash in on his part of Gary's legacy, so fuck you Gail I'll be kingmaker and elevate Arneson over Gary instead).  

Do you think Gail would have cooperated in the first hit piece if she knew Gary's role would be trashed by the same author using another bitter ex-TSR guy to turnabout on the one thing she wants to monetize?  

Divide and conquer.  She seems to be making a lot of hay off of these running feuds.

Now, we also have this film coming out, and the guy running the RPG forum media refers to her by her first name, Cecilia .  Perhaps a coincidence.  I don't refer to authors I'm not familiar with by first names, but perhaps he does.  This is one of the reasons why I wonder if the article and movie were timed together by two people who both have a preference for one to ascend and the other to descend.  

It's no secret there's a lot of old-school gamers who'll pay 5.99 to be told that Arneson is actually the guy, and he was kept from his rightful due, etc.  And that's also something that people probably agreeing with old-schoolers on absolutely nothing else would also pay 5.99 to hear, for different reasons.  Not pro-Arneson so much as just "not Gygax".  

Again - I don't really care who wrote what at this point.  Gygax is my personal fave because I've been reading his books for four decades, and my love of his work was set way before I hopped on the internet for the first time, but I wonder if the community is getting played here.  Like I said, a bit tin foil of me, granted.  But there's lots of interesting patterns here.  And I absolutely have lost all respect for Kuntz in any event.

But here's the last interesting piece that may be a total coincidence, but that in real journalism should have been reported as a conflict of interest in the piece, if I am correct on details.  And if I'm not, I welcome correction.

Paul Stormberg is described in the piece as "a role-playing game archivist", and "a former archaeologist now spends his days digging into the work of Arneson, Gygax, and other lesser-known deities of the RPG tradition".  These descriptions lend additional weight to his opinions that it was really Arneson who was the kernel of it all, don't they?  He has the background and the materials to be able to make these assertions; case closed.  

Does the article ever mention that he makes a not-insignificant amount of money from selling RPG items at auction through the collector's trove?  Even once?  

How about that it was the collectors trove that bought up all of Arneson's RPG life's work when his heirs didn't gather up his effects from a storage locker he'd left them in after he died, "Like an episode of Storage Wars or Auction Hunters.."?  Any mention of that?  The announcement isn't on his website anymore but it's still archived at ENWorld

QuoteSunday, April 29, 2012 at 9:01PM

Hello Everyone,


Exciting news at The Collector's Trove! We have recently contracted to auction the David L. Arneson collection. The new owner of the collection has authorized The Collector's Trove to begin auctioning items from the legendary game designer's collection spanning over 50 years of amateur and professional involvement in war games, strategy games, card games, board games, and role-playing games.

The Collector's Trove contacted Dave Arneson for the first time in 2005. At that time the possibility of auctioning off his collection was discussed. The conversation continued off and on over over the next several years, the last time about 3 weeks before Arneson's death in 2009. He informed The Collector's Trove that the management of the collection would now be in the hands of his heirs and that he would pass along our services to them. Unfortunately, there was no word from Dave's heirs in over two years.

Then, in an unforeseen turn of events, the management of the collection apparently became too much for Dave's heirs to handle and they abandoned it in a storage locker. While the owner of the storage facility made numerous attempts to contact the heirs, they did not respond and left the fate of the collection in the hands of others. Like an episode of Storage Wars or Auction Hunters, the owner of the storage facility followed the business' standard protocol of auctioning the lockers contents. A local auction company won the bidding for the locker and took possession of the collection. Again, however the enormity and eclectic nature of the collection proved to be too much to manage, certainly beyond the scope of the company's operations. They ultimately contacted Michael Cox, long time owner and operator of the The Dragon's Trove an online gaming store with a long history of selling collectable RPGs.

Michael then contacted The Collector's Trove, the premier online auction house that specializes in handling the collections of RPG games designers and artists, and the two agreed to team up to rescue the collection. After, three hours in an unheated garage, on a cold Minnesota afternoon, the collection was evaluated by The Collector's Trove and a buy-out offer was tendered and accepted. A few days later The Collector's Trove returned with an empty cargo van. All 114 boxes and various loose items were loaded into the van with nary space for the driver and passenger to move. As darkness fell the pick-up team climbed into the van for a long drive.

The team drove through the night arriving at home base the next morning. Later that day the unloading and processing began.

The collection comprises some 10,000 items ranging from Dave's 1959 game of Risk to game designs he was working on up until his death in 2009. Dave was a creative genius and designer, devising game after game, poring over military history books, maps, and documents, refining and tinkering his designs way beyond the ken of even the most meticulous game designer.

Now, The Collector's Trove, in cooperation with Michael Cox of the The Dragon's Trove, will seek to preserve the intellectual property of the collection while trying to carry out Dave's wishes to have a portion of its value go to his heirs. Through a combined effort of scanning, documentation, and auctions it is hoped that we may achieve both goals. In the process Dave's fans and collectors alike will have the opportunity to support this effort and have a chance to own a piece of gaming history. Likewise, the gaming community may yet get a chance to see Dave's unpublished game designs come to fruition.

If you wish to keep apprised of this and the many other exciting, once in a lifetime auctions at The Collector's Trove use the 'eMail Notifications' link in the right column under 'My Services' or click here for Email Notification. Those who do so will receive a special preview list of each upcoming auction and exclusive preview pictures of items in each collection.

Otherwise, standard updates of web site news may be received by clicking on the 'RSS Subscription' link in the right column under 'My Services' or by simply checking back in on the website as often as you like.

The first Ebay auction will be launched next Sunday evening, May 6th and will include nearly 200 items including several rare wargames, Call of Cthulhu, Empire of the Petal Throne, Blackmoor, Dungeons & Dragons, and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Highlights of the auction will include inscribed and autographed copies, editorial and review copies, author's and comp copies, Dave Arneson library copies, and personal play copies! Among many special items are a series of Empire of the Petal Throne books and journals autographed by the late M.A.R. Barker.



Futures Bright,

Paul Stormberg

The Collector's Trove

I've met Paul a couple of times.  He seems like a nice guy, and I'm not 100% sure this isn't just the horrible fact-checking that's already been routinely shown by the author of this article.  But unless he's sold off all of those boxes of material (I know he's sold some % over the years - maybe it's all of it but I didn't think so) it would remain that he has an absolute vested financial interest in Arneson being known as the true father of D&D instead of Gygax.

And that is completely missing from any of the articles commentary, which almost entirely relies upon him and Kuntz.  I haven't seen the movie, and I don't plan to.  But I wonder if Stormberg is prominently featured in it, and if so if any disclosure occurred.

So again, speculatively, let's think about everything this article could possibly be accomplishing:

After placing allegations against GaryCon on to the internet forever to be linked back for various reasons, at Gail's behest; which could have possibly lowered demand for a Con she couldn't control
The same author has now placed a take-down of Gary's reputation on to the internet forever, at Kuntz's behest; possibly lowering the value of the IP he can't leverage
Which raises the demand for a movie that will take some pocket money from both old-schoolers AND other gaming groups not having a high opinion of them, for different reasons
Which  speculatively raises the value of Arneson's ephemera, which would only likely be sold to gamers who want their very own piece of notebook paper that Dave wrote on
And involved in all of it is an author who stated And yet, perhaps Gygax has enjoyed enough time on D&D's altar of hero worship.

Very interesting indeed.