Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1101054And the flip side is that that level of exposure and activities, combined with being a man of vocal opinions, can make you a lot of enemies, which may account for some of the reaction against him.

I hope that Dave and Gary were each buried with a set of polyhedral dice.  That would have been cool.

Quote from: tenbones;1101051I agree. Ideas are cheap. Meaningful to those smart enough to execute - but cheap.

The execution part is where the magic happens.

The issue is when you say stuff like that, you're "diminishing Arneson's contribution!" No, that's not true whatsoever. Arneson was the muse to Gygax's symphony, but as time passed Gygax gave less and less credit to Arneson for good reason: 18 pages of crappy notes <<<<<<<<< literally thousands of pages of finely detailed rules. At some point (AD&D I suppose) Arneson's initial idea had outlived its contributory significance.

Quote from: JRT;1101053I don't think Kuntz has any real bones to pick with Gail--why would he trash Gary himself it that was the case?  He did have a falling out with Gary in the last stages of the latter's life.  I do sense some bitterness in Kuntz since he implies he's not interviewed much, and he's also apparently planning to write a tell-all book called Lake Geneva Days, etc.

Okay, another Jim Ward story that might not be true because I could never find any legal evidence...apparently Kuntz and Gygax doubled up on a girl under the influence and she got pregnant, there was some paternity suit in WI about it. Hopefully that'll be in the book.

Also, Kuntz is SUPER crotchety, anyway. I think it is fairly accurate his contribution to D&D has been severely downplayed; it's indisputable that he helped Gygax iron out most of what we consider the main parts of an RPG campaign. But again, old and crotchety...

Quote from: Brad;1101045I talked to Jim Ward about this at a convention once...he said the Arneson notes were mostly illegible drivel. I don't care how creative you are, if you cannot communicate your ideas to anyone else, it's irrelevant what you're doing. To discount Gygax because he didn't actually come up with the initial idea is dumb.

So, this is just old news...Arneson came up with a cool new idea, Gygax put it into a presentable form. I mean, they're both listed as co-creators of D&D, so who the fuck cares?

That tracks with what I've read.  Then again, it might have been an article written by Jim Ward. I think it was about someone trying to create a Blackmoor module based on Arneson's notes, but they gave up since they were too hard to read and not of much use. The author was definitely conveying a sense of disappointment in Arneson's work.

The thing I found interesting from the "Deceptions" article is that Arneson seemed like a storygamer, whereas Gygax was simulationist.

Quote from: Aglondir;1101063That tracks with what I've read.  Then again, it might have been an article written by Jim Ward. I think it was about someone trying to create a Blackmoor module based on Arneson's notes, but they gave up since they were too hard to read and not of much use. The author was definitely conveying a sense of disappointment in Arneson's work.

The thing I found interesting from the "Deceptions" article is that Arneson seemed like a storygamer, whereas Gygax was simulationist.

There may be some truth to that last statement....

Quote from: tenbones;1101051I agree. Ideas are cheap. Meaningful to those smart enough to execute - but cheap.

The execution part is where the magic happens.

There's a famous Hollywood story told by screenwriters. I have no idea if its real or not, but its an old favorite. Allegedly, the director Frank Capra (the Spielberg of the 30s/40s) gave an interview where he declared his movies were successful because of his "Capra touch". The story goes that the screenwriter who wrote most of Capra's major films heard this and sent Capra a pile of blank pages and a cover page that said "Put the Capra touch on this!"

I've always been unimpressed with the Kask vs. Kuntz and Gary vs. Dave narratives. The OD&D box cover says everything I need to know.

D&D = Gary & Dave.

May they rest in peace. Or conquer the Nine Hells and rule as Demon Lords.

Gygax was an unabashed gamist who denounced both realistic approaches as well as genre emulation in his columns. D&D was first and foremost a game meant to entertain via certain well-tested stimuli.

Quote from: tenbones;1101051I agree. Ideas are cheap. Meaningful to those smart enough to execute - but cheap.

The execution part is where the magic happens.

Except in this case the idea was unique

As for execution Dave was from the all the accounts an excellent referee for the Blackmoor campaign. Honing his skill through years of play and dozens of players. In the various anecdotes and accounts  Blackmoor started out as a sophisticated wargame campaign. But due to his willingness to go along with the schemes and interests of his players as their characters. It morphed into the first traditional tabletop campaign as the focus shifted from the larger conflict to the adventures of the characters.

This took no small amount effort and sweat on Dave's part.

However where Gygax was crucial was taking what Dave was doing and turn into a rulebook that people could learn run these campaign for themselves. There isn't an alternative path to the hobby we have except for the one that through both of them.

So in Dave case I don't view his role as one where ideas are cheap.  However fans of Dave Arneson need to acknowledge that despite his genius creating rulebooks for mass distribution was not one of them. He strength was more as a teacher and showing by example.

Can't check it out at work.

This is like Stan Lee/Jack Kirby, isn't it .

Quote from: estar;1101098Except in this case the idea was unique

As for execution Dave was from the all the accounts an excellent referee for the Blackmoor campaign. Honing his skill through years of play and dozens of players. In the various anecdotes and accounts  Blackmoor started out as a sophisticated wargame campaign. But due to his willingness to go along with the schemes and interests of his players as their characters. It morphed into the first traditional tabletop campaign as the focus shifted from the larger conflict to the adventures of the characters.

This took no small amount effort and sweat on Dave's part.

However where Gygax was crucial was taking what Dave was doing and turn into a rulebook that people could learn run these campaign for themselves. There isn't an alternative path to the hobby we have except for the one that through both of them.

So in Dave case I don't view his role as one where ideas are cheap.  However fans of Dave Arneson need to acknowledge that despite his genius creating rulebooks for mass distribution was not one of them. He strength was more as a teacher and showing by example.

That sounds totally fair to me. I'm happy that today's technology and understanding that folks are interested in how things come to be has allowed some version of what really happened to be captured. As we go forward in history, we will see more and more idea originators recognized for their work even when someone else does the grunt work of bringing the idea to the masses.

I'm not surprised by what more of the history between Dave and Gary is coming out. While I absolutely honor Garry for bringing the game to the masses, he has certainly had his moments of being challenging. I read his letter to the APA publishers back in the day and thought him quite a jerk. I read his story about some teenage kid coming to one of his games all excited about his awesome character and Garry not only trouncing the character (fine) but ripping the character sheet to shreds in front of the player (rather immature). On the other hand, I have never heard anything but kind words about Dave (and he was very pleasant when I met him and more than happy to sign my First Fantasy Campaign book).

And for those pointing out Dave's relative contribution vs Garry's to the number of words on D&D, how does Garry compare to later editions?

I'm glad both men decided to share the game with us.

Frank

Quote from: Manic Modron;1101109Can't check it out at work.

This is like Stan Lee/Jack Kirby, isn't it .

I don't know, who is Jack Kirby?

Quote from: JRT;1101053The other thing odd was Kuntz stating the myth of Gary...but there's been a ton of coverage of the others involved with the creation.  It's not the 1980s anymore, most people know it, both creators get credits in the OGL and in the books, even if it's small.

Yeah this part really bugged me too as they are playing it up as if it is some big secret conspiracy coverup to hide Arneson's involvement.

Quote from: estar;1101098Except in this case the idea was unique.

Except the idea was not exactly unique.

Various folk from that era and a bit before have noted that there were forays into this idea. The difference being they never developed the idea further. Or took the idea in different directions.

Wayyyyyy back Gary recounted what was essentially a proto-LARP his brothers and friends played when they were kids. I think that when Arneson came along with this idea it sparked a memory in Gary of that old game and helped win him over to trying to make a game out of little more than a concept. Which in the gaming biz is not too far from what used to occasionally happen. Though rare now-a-days.

Arneson provided the spark for the fire. The snowflake for the avalanche. Without that spark Gary might never have hit on the idea of merging these seemingly disparate things into what it became.

Quote from: Omega;1101114Except the idea was not exactly unique.

Various folk from that era and a bit before have noted that there were forays into this idea. The difference being they never developed the idea further. Or took the idea in different directions.

Wayyyyyy back Gary recounted what was essentially a proto-LARP his brothers and friends played when they were kids. I think that when Arneson came along with this idea it sparked a memory in Gary of that old game and helped win him over to trying to make a game out of little more than a concept. Which in the gaming biz is not too far from what used to occasionally happen. Though rare now-a-days.

Arneson provided the spark for the fire. The snowflake for the avalanche. Without that spark Gary might never have hit on the idea of merging these seemingly disparate things into what it became.

I disagree, not even Dave started off with the idea of tabletop roleplaying when he launched Blackmoor. From what I read (documentation and anecdotes) he viewed Blackmoor as a sophisticated wargame campaign and his role was as a neutral arbiter between the two main factions of players. What lead Dave into developing Blackmoor into what in hindsight was the first tabletop roleplaying campaign was his willingness to say yes to whatever schemes his players cooked up as long as they made sense in terms of what he established about Blackmoor. Even there it he was more than a bit flexible has he had many science fiction element in his campaign.

People over on various discussion forums will be bring up Wesely, Korns, Featherstone, Totten, and other. And while it is true that each of the elements Dave used was first found elsewhere, it was Dave who was first to be bring them all together into something that we would recognized as a tabletop RPG campaign. Not any of the forementioned or any other of Dave' contemporaries prior to Blackmoor.

For example Korns focused on a man to man skirmish level World War II wargame. There is a section that literally reads like a tabletop roleplaying session. But the context is that of gaming a World War II scenario. There was no sense that the characters would abandon their unit and hook up with the French criminal underworld and start running a smuggling ring. It was all presented in terms of gaming out various World War II scenario in a very sophisticated form.

My view is that the primary reason Dave's Blackmoor became the first tabletop roleplaying was his willingness to say yes.  And the moment it shifted from wargame to tabletop roleplaying campaign was after the introduction of the Blackmoor Dungeon. The Blackmoor Dungeon proved widely popular to explore among Dave's players. So popular that the player ignored the larger war with the Egg of Coot faction and they wound up taking over Castle Blackmoor. The good guy players were exiled to Lake Gloomy where they promptly stated poking around for more dungeons to explore. Dave was irked but went along with it. Some of this is found in the anecdotes and some in notes that are part of the First Fantasy Campaign by Judges Guild.

Because Blackmoor was primarily a miniature wargame campaign with sand tables, and huge ass props, when Dave went down to Lake Geneva he took the things that he could easily transport namely the Blackmoor dungeon. Which was mostly pen, paper, and maps. As a consequence Gygax take was focused on dungeon exploration.

You don't have to believe me just read Playing at the World, First Fantasy Campign, Hawk & Moor, True Genius by Rob Kuntz, the various antecdotes, and the Secret of Blackmoor film. Keep in mind everybody has their bias.

I'd like to add this thought:

If we dismiss Dave Arneson as "inventor" of the role playing game because others had almost role playing games (Dave even played in one - Dave Wesley's Braunstein), then do we dismiss any inventor or author because someone else would have come up with the idea? What I really appreciate is that knowledge about the influences for Dave's game have become publicized, I had never heard about Braunstein until it was mentioned somewhere on an OSR board.

Quote from: estar;1101098Except in this case the idea was unique

As for execution Dave was from the all the accounts an excellent referee for the Blackmoor campaign. Honing his skill through years of play and dozens of players. In the various anecdotes and accounts  Blackmoor started out as a sophisticated wargame campaign. But due to his willingness to go along with the schemes and interests of his players as their characters. It morphed into the first traditional tabletop campaign as the focus shifted from the larger conflict to the adventures of the characters.

This took no small amount effort and sweat on Dave's part.

However where Gygax was crucial was taking what Dave was doing and turn into a rulebook that people could learn run these campaign for themselves. There isn't an alternative path to the hobby we have except for the one that through both of them.

So in Dave case I don't view his role as one where ideas are cheap.  However fans of Dave Arneson need to acknowledge that despite his genius creating rulebooks for mass distribution was not one of them. He strength was more as a teacher and showing by example.

Point taken.

Those rare moments where entire movements are born are pretty rare. But the point stands.